Trench Warfare - Line Talk (Update: Matthews added, Wilborn released)

[Bantu]

Also, I have to say... Other than RG3, I think the best player on this football team is Trent Williams. Linemen never get that kind of love because stats are so unreliable/non-existant when looking at a lineman, but Trent Williams has good footwork, is huge, is athletic, uses momentum and hand placement quite well, has excellent leg drive and knows his assignments. Watching him play is so much fun I can't describe it. He makes mistakes, sure. But the guy is flat out a football player with a mean streak.

You are 100% correct. If you factor everything including production, overall talent, and youth TW is right behind RGIII in terms of importance to the team.

[DC9]

You are 100% correct. If you factor everything including production, overall talent, and youth TW is right behind RGIII in terms of importance to the team.

I'd argue that TW is the most important player on the roster. Being that (1) This is the big uglies thread and (2) We have other means of moving the ball through the air (I say it that we because this is the big uglies thread).

I have to say, the drop off from TW to the next man up is at least a grade and a half... so from A to C+. The drop of at the other position mentioned is from A (which will improve) to B/B- (which may also improve).

[sabbath1981]

I'd argue that TW is the most important player on the roster. Being that (1) This is the big uglies thread and (2) We have other means of moving the ball through the air (I say it that we because this is the big uglies thread).

I have to say, the drop off from TW to the next man up is at least a grade and a half... so from A to C+. The drop of at the other position mentioned is from A (which will improve) to B/B- (which may also improve).

I'd somewhat agree with this. Somewhat.

I find that Williams and RGIII are the two cornerstones to this team, and everyone else is generally replaceable.

[styx491]

I love this thread and it's about time we got some serious, educated, and relevant discussion about the offensive line. The fact that the coaches are so high Ribs and Compton is pretty arousing (yes, arousing).

I love that the left side of our line is pretty set in stone with Trent and Kory, and we have so much young, athletic blood for the right side and center position. I love how we have a couple of Swiss army knife guys too, able to play several positions and play them well enough.

I'm excited to see how this thread progresses!

[vabigpoppa]

wow, it seems like the majority of you guys prefer Lich over Chester? I think if Ribeye starts, he will take Lich's spot, not Chesters.

[Dark Acre]

Chemistry is also important, a combat multiplier, if you will. As the OP (?) noted, Trent and Lich are in synch. Who at C-RG-RT work seamlessly with each other? As for another poster, yeah, Trueblood and Pashos were brought in to compete to start at RT. If either doesn't win the job, they're gone. The team will go with Polumbus backed up by Compton rather than by T or P. Also agree with the versatility factor re: Chester unless Chester demonstrates significantly better play than a guy who is capable at RG and can swing to C or LG (or even RT, which is why Hurt has an edge).

[Voice_of_Reason]

I don't understand why people are down on Chester. Sure, there are some young guys vying for playing time, but if I'm not mistaken (and I might very well be), Chester is the only OL to start (and I think finish) each of the 33 games that he's been here for. I could be wrong on that, but I thought I remembered reading that he didn't miss a game.

He's played well, and he hasn't had the luxury of playing next to a solid RT.

He might be out, I'm nowhere near an expert on OG play, but for some reason, it just seems odd that he would be out.

However, how unbelievable would it be that a productive starting RG is beaten out by a younger player. It wasn't that long ago that guys like Stephon Heyer were thought to be legitimate starters (I know, Stephon was a Tackle, but go with me). If they have to release Chester, they would be releasing a legit starter, who probably wouldn't remain unemployed for long...

We've come a long way on the OL. The only constant is that they've had a solid LT for a long time, with Samuels giving way to Williams. Otherwise, they use to throw some serious garbage out there, and that has changed, without using a lot of super-high draft picks.

I'm impressed.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

This time last year, I couldn't understand--after drafting a once-in-a-lifetime franchise QB--why in the world acquiring top-flight OL wasn't our top priority.

This year, after what our once-in-a-lifetime franchise QB went through, I'm even more perplexed. I really don't get why protecting RG3, giving him a few more secs on passing downs, etc. isn't our top priority.

Last year I think RG3's talents made an avg. OL look pretty good. But I think Seattle exposed them in the playoffs. They shouldn't have been able to shut our run game down like that just bc RG3 was injured.

I understand if the talent simply isn't available within our means (considering our cap ripoff, etc.), but I see so many people on this board wanting D, WR's etc. Considering what happened to RG3, that's simply bizarre to me.

But what do I know; carry on.

[rk3025]

Nixon's birthday is 9/17/1990 22 years old

Wilborn's birthday is 4/06/1990 23 years old

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I love this thread and it's about time we got some serious, educated, and relevant discussion about the offensive line. The fact that the coaches are so high Ribs and Compton is pretty arousing (yes, arousing).

.....

I'm excited to see how this thread progresses!

If this thread does that do you, I'm sorry you missed a little known similar one by a similar guy in a similar dimension. Girls Lacrosee Chalk Talk. It was short lasting sadly as the author neglected to post pics.

But hey, that guy knew **** about QB's, so this is far more suited.

wow, it seems like the majority of you guys prefer Lich over Chester? I think if Ribeye starts, he will take Lich's spot, not Chesters.

My own personal opinion:

Lichtensteiger is VERY underrated by the fan base. IMHO, he's the most athletic interior guy out of our 'regular' guys who fits the ZBS best. He's often downfield in not only the second but third level. And he's a tough lil' SOB.

Where he has the main advantage over Chester is three-fold to me. He's two years younger. A big factor when looking at having the group set for let'a say the next 5 years as the vet. presence along with Trent. Talking of whom, the pair have a terrific rapport. No coincidence that most opposing runs are to the right side of our line. Now granted, Chester has no Williams alongside him, but its all relative. Would you rather break up a solid, productive partnership to integrate youth or just a singular solid contributor? And the main deciding factor is Kory's versatility. He's a very fine center along with being a real good ZBS guard. If I'm not mistaken, he was one of the highest ranked centers in the Nation coming out and a close runner-up for the best center award in college ball his last season in school. Those type of 'swing' players are invaluable to possess. Even more so on game day with the still archaic lack of numbers on who you can actually dress. Kory covers two slots you may well go with two men covering if you stick with Chester. And it's never been lost on me Coach Mike drafted Lichtensteiger in the 4th round in Denver. And then made him one of his first acquisitions here. If that doesn't say how well he fits our scheme I don't know what does.

Personally, I'm looking past this year to 2014 and beyond for our rebirth to be complete and a serious challenge put forth. If it happens this year, brilliant. But all things considered, I still think we're a year away as a team from fully rejoining the very top table. And as such, as well as the collective group on the O-line played last year (WELL above themselves in many instances IMHO. Montgomery and Chester to name two); I'd be happy to see the next step taken and guys like LeRibeus, Gettis, Compton and Hurt move up on the depth chart if the Coaches feel their ready at the expense of guys like Monty and Chester. Solid guys without question. But guys you could really do with upgrading for me if we're being brutally honest to really take this onto the next level. And by all accounts, the brass think LeRibeus and Gettis are that next level going forward. So if their ready, get them out there ASAP for me and let them grow and learn together.

You can't beat on-field experience. Get this young group together, give them their heads and let them attain that.

It can only serve as a positive to the very, very special future we're building toward.

Hail.

[KDawg]

I, for one, am not down on Chester. I have him on my very preliminary "make the team" list. But I would release Chester before Lich right now. Chester can certainly turn that tide, but his lack of versatility will hurt him. As will the fact he plays opposite Trent Williams instead of next to him. But I certainly believe he's top 9 on the team right now, and still starting caliber. It would take a HUGE jump by Gettis or LeRibeus to send him to free agency, and as of now I don't see it happening.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

GHH,

I'll shelf my Landry Jones comedy for now, seeing how I'd be breaking my own rules... So I'll be serious...

I say it all the time to people. There are complexities occuring all over the football field at all times during the course of a football game. However, if you understand line play, you get such a huge portion of the game's knowledge it's scary. When I was playing OL in HS I kind of resented it. I was a 165 lb OL that was only put there because I was strong enough to do it and we needed guys on the line. I wanted to be a RB, a LB, anything other than an OL. But as I continued to play it, I learned to love it. I never once thought that I'd want to coach offensive line when I was growing up... but I LOVE the line. It's so much fun to watch and analyze, and it really does make the entire game seem much easier to follow.

Yeah, see Coach it was that same kind of unadulterated passion from that nameless poster that got me really interested in looking deeper at line play outside of naturally acknowledging their vital importance and little else.

Same dude has also taught me more on this great game and broadened my ever learning knowledge than any book or film ever could.

I should take time to remind him he's my favourite all time poster on here who I appreciate and like greatly. But I wouldn't want to embarrass him in front of his peers so I'll leave it for another time.

Hail .

[CrabR]

My picks before the start of training camp

Starters

T:Trent Williams

LG: Kory Lichtensteiger

C: Will Montgomery

RG: Chris Chester

RT: Tom Compton

backups

G/C Josh LeRibeus

G/T Maurice Hurt

G Adam Gettis

T Tom Compton

PS

T Xavier Nixon

G/TJacolby Ashworth

[Dark Acre]

My picks before the start of training camp

Starters

T:Trent Williams

LG: Kory Lichtensteiger

C: Will Montgomery

RG: Chris Chester

RT: Tom Compton

backups

G/C Josh LeRibeus

G/T Maurice Hurt

G Adam Gettis

T Tom Compton

Compton better not get hurt since he's backing himself up.

[DC9]

I'd somewhat agree with this. Somewhat.

I find that Williams and RGIII are the two cornerstones to this team, and everyone else is generally replaceable.

That's fair. Right now Trent is top five or better at LT. Rob isn't quite there... I mean, it's semantics, but I'll agree with you.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I just don't see things the way some of you others seem to.

I personally think that Kory is a HUGE asset to this team. I feel like I OFTEN saw him blocking at the second and third levels and that his ability to pull is exceptional.

I also think that Polumbus is an exceptional run blocker. Not average, not good, but exceptional. I think he might be a top 5 (run blocking) right tackle. The dude can flat out maul; he can move a man off the line of scrimmage and get off the block to the next guy. I freely admit that he is a mediocre pass blocker, but I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as people make him out to be. I've heard words like "porous" and "atrocious" to describe his pass blocking and I find them simply unfair.

I know that, as fans, we're constantly looking to see who will step up and move forward. But I just don't see a whole lot of movement this year. We had the best rushing offensive line in the league last year and we're not about to **** with it. Trueblood and Pashos were brought in to push Polumbus, but neither of them will be a backup. You don't keep an aging and injured guy as your back up. Of the three, one will win the job and the other two will be cut because, let's face it, you want Compton starting as your back up.

That said, no 6th round second year player is going to take Polumbus's starting job. Ask yourself, if you could get RGIII 1 extra second (which is a WHOLE lot of extra time) on every pass, would it be worth a significant drop in the run blocking game? For me, the answer is no way. Not even close. We GASHED teams last year. We didn't just run it down their throats. Often times Morris didn't get touched by anyone but the defensive backs. Often the secondary was making first contact. I'm not willing to give that up for an extra second of time passing. Either you upgrade the pass blocking at RT without sacrificing the run blocking or you don't upgrade (in my opinion).

I see our lineman playing out nearly the same as last year for just one more year (at which point I think the young guys are much more likely to make the next step).

Trent

Kory

Monty

Chester

Polumbus

Compton

LeReibus

Gettis

Hurt

Kory is on a new 5 year deal. The deal is very team friendly. He is at 1 mil this year, then 2.5, then 3.5, and then 3.25 for the last two years. At no point does his salary balloon to something we wouldn't pay. He'll be 33 at the end of the contract. It's fair to say that, based on his production, he'll play at least 3 of those 5 years. At 31 or 32 (year 4 or 5) we probably look to let him go.

Montgomery signed a 4 year deal last year and is in year two of it now. His salary is 1.85 mil, then 2.6 and 3.1 mil. Considering he was one of the game's best centers last year and could have made the pro bowl, we can probably pencil him in to see the next two of those years. Around the end of year three (at 33) we probably look to let him go to avoid paying him 3 million. By then some young kid is ready. But you don't just replace a pro bowler who's making 2.5 million just because.

Chester signed a 5 year deal in 2011 and is entering year three. His salary is 3 million for this year and next and then 3.5 million. There is absolutely no way, based on his performance, that he should see the fifth year as a 33 year old guard. IF he makes it the next two years then we will be looking to let him go at the end of year 4. However, I think THIS is the position LeRib and Gettis are competing for. Chester has been good, but is the one real opening on the interior line. He is the one of our three starters who is under playing in comparison to their salary. I think Kory and Monty are outplaying their salaries, but Chester is under playing or breaking even. Thus, if one of the young players absolutely beasts out, this is where you put him. It simultaneously addresses the weakest link of the interior, creates a reason to create cap relief, AND helps the RT situation which, for the moment, remains shaky.

[MusicCitySkin]

I think it's important to point out that if we're worried about the team cutting potentially good players, that means we're in pretty good shape personnel wise.

[KDawg]

Bingo. And good players will get cut. I don't think I've stated who I think will start for us... Just said who I think will make the team in the OP...

So starters:

LT Trent Williams

LG Kory Lichtensteiger

C Will Montgomery

RG Chris Chester

RT Tyler Polumbus

Continuity. Having said that, if one of the young guys is head and shoulders better than Chester or Polumbus, then you may see someone sneak in.

[SB17]

So, if Trent Williams goes down to injury or another substance abuse punishment, who replaces him and how does it affect our offense (in terms of production)?

[darrelgreenie]

So, if Trent Williams goes down to injury or another substance abuse punishment, who replaces him and how does it affect our offense (in terms of production)?

I think this a fear in the back of everyone's mind. My plan for that possible situation has several variables. Best case scenario? Someone steps up at the RT spot and improves the level of play at that position beyond Polumbus level from last year. A healthy Tony Pashos or improved Tom Compton/Xavier Nixon or even Polumbus himself.

Then you start the back-up LT (Hurt/Compton) and give them help every snap.

Our offense would be hindered based on whether or not the RT can play without help as the help is slid to the left side.

[MartinC]

So, if Trent Williams goes down to injury or another substance abuse punishment, who replaces him and how does it affect our offense (in terms of production)?

If Trent goes down for a long period we are in big trouble - he is the second most important player on our offense after RGIII. He may actually be the most important since we have a reasonable backup in Cousins at QB who showed (in a one game sample to be fair) that he can step in and produce. There is no one we can put in at LT on a long term basis without a significant drop off not just at LT but along the line as you adjust blocking schemes to allow for your LT not being able to be left one on one.

Our whole game planning and play calling would change and the offense would be much more restricted in what it can attempt let alone execute.

I will now bow out of a thread I have no business in - my OL coaching experience being lying on my back after being sacked shouting 'For Gods sake can someone block that guy".

[dswerdlw]

I agree with KDawg's analysis and predictions. Here is my concern. If Trent Williams is injured, shouldn't we have a backup with some real NFL experience at left tackle? As much as I like Compton, I don't think he's that guy. Polumbus does not have the chops to pass protect at LT. From what I can find, Pashos has played RT almost exclusively in college and at the pro level. Trueblood played RT in Tampa, but the did play LT at Boston College. I hope someone really shows up during training camp and preseason. In the meantime, I'm worried. We're throwing the dice.

[Master Blaster]

Last year I think RG3's talents made an avg. OL look pretty good. But I think Seattle exposed them in the playoffs. They shouldn't have been able to shut our run game down like that just bc RG3 was injured.

Having played for Gus Bradley, I understand his defensive schemes very well. His whole premise of playing D is to stop the run no matter what. Get obvious passing downs and bring the heat. When RGIII was somewhat healthy at the beginning of the game, Gus had no answer for him. Once RGIII reinjured the leg on that 2nd TD, Gus' scheme took over.

RGIII stays healthy that game isn't even close.

[KDawg]

So, if Trent Williams goes down to injury or another substance abuse punishment, who replaces him and how does it affect our offense (in terms of production)?

No one can replace him... We'd have to do a lot to help the guy who is in for him though, which means teams will force the left side of our OL into needing help. And while the left side may hold steady, it's going to expose the right side a bit more.

As far as who? We'll see. Hurt may be a candidate, though I don't know if he's ready for a LT gig... And Trueblood may be the next best thing.

Scary.

I will now bow out of a thread I have no business in - my OL coaching experience being lying on my back after being sacked shouting 'For Gods sake can someone block that guy".

Sounds like the QB didn't call out the right protections!!! Don't be blaming the big guys! JERK! :ols:

We're throwing the dice.

I do agree. We're gambling with the left side quite a bit... Unless, of course, the coaches know something we don't.

Having played for Gus Bradley, I understand his defensive schemes very well. His whole premise of playing D is to stop the run no matter what. Get obvious passing downs and bring the heat. When RGIII was somewhat healthy at the beginning of the game, Gus had no answer for him. Once RGIII reinjured the leg on that 2nd TD, Gus' scheme took over.

RGIII stays healthy that game isn't even close.

While I've never played for him, his gameplan on a week to week basis is obviously this, and I absolutely agree with your assessment. But I'll even one up you... If Cousins came in a bit earlier, that slight threat of a pass and some good play calling could have kept us ahead in that game. But I digress.

[MartinC]

Sounds like the QB didn't call out the right protections!!! Don't be blaming the big guys! JERK! :ols: .

Something like that