Did Abraham do the right thing?

[alexey]

Abraham had no reference to know that child sacrifice was prohibited by God because in the that era child sacrifice was a common religious practice, he was simply following the best way he understood. It wasn't until much later that God's law was given to Moses.

That is an interesting point. I failed to notice that the story does not mention Abraham having any doubts or negative thoughts about being commanded to do this.

[alexey]

Although I find it hard to believe that humans did not see a problem with it. They certainly had the mental capacity to imagine getting sacrificed themselves, imagine how much that would suck, and reflect upon how they would not want to trade placed with people who are getting sacrificed.

Of course, their faith could have overruled all of those things. Driven by faith they could have gladly sacrificed others and would in theory be excited about getting sacrificed themselves. It's great that God finally told them to chill out with all the sacrificin'.

[skinsmarydu]

Yes. Because if he didn't' date=' Jews and Christians might still believe in human sacrifice.

You do realize that is the point of this story - that the God of Abraham would not demand human sacrifices.[/quote']

Wasn't this on H2 the other night? That was the point of whatever it was I was watching.

---------- Post added July-10th-2012 at 06:30 PM ----------

That is an interesting point. I failed to notice that the story does not mention Abraham having any doubts or negative thoughts about being commanded to do this.

And remember that it is a story, handed down, not written at the time, so it's hard to really know what was in anyone's mind, even God. I'm a believer, but also a realist.

[Guest Spearfeather]

you are not breaking any rules... but you HAVE completely revealed yourself to be a fundementalist zealot, apparently with the burning need to constantly evangelize.

Thats some good stuff.

[Destino]

I am not pushing a system. There are a lot of ways to make things work.

It's always easier to point out problems than it is to offer solutions, just as it is easier to attack the beliefs of others rather than offer your own up for scrutiny. In the future, you should at least try to consider the point of the story you're slamming... And how it influenced the opinion you hold today.

[HogNose]

I saw the title and thought of this song. Sorry, I constantly have music running through my head. :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ki_osW5RsA

[alexey]

It's always easier to point out problems than it is to offer solutions, just as it is easier to attack the beliefs of others rather than offer your own up for scrutiny. In the future, you should at least try to consider the point of the story you're slamming... And how it influenced the opinion you hold today.

Before talking about solutions, shouldn't we agree on what problem we are trying to solve?

The story is about a man who was blessed by God because he proved his faith by obeying God's command to sacrifice his child. This story has deep religious meaning, but it also has some problems that people should, in theory, be open to discuss. For example, I see a problem with God asking people to prove their faith by slaying another human being.

[Teller]

Before talking about solutions, shouldn't we agree on what problem we are trying to solve?

The story is about a man who was blessed by God because he proved his faith by obeying God's command to sacrifice his child. This story has deep religious meaning, but it also has some problems that people should, in theory, be open to discuss. For example, I see a problem with God asking people to prove their faith by slaying another human being.

Only that wasn't what happened.

God wanted Abraham to prove the extent of his faith, which he did. Not even so much as a gnat was harmed in the process.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Before talking about solutions, shouldn't we agree on what problem we are trying to solve?

The story is about a man who was blessed by God because he proved his faith by obeying God's command to sacrifice his child. This story has deep religious meaning, but it also has some problems that people should, in theory, be open to discuss. For example, I see a problem with God asking people to prove their faith by slaying another human being.

Isn't that kind of the whole point of a test? Abraham was asked to give up the very inheritance which was promised to him, i.e. a legacy through his line. Go knew that Abraham was surrounded by religions which routinely practiced child sacrifice Moloch being one, as such God tested Abraham's faithfulness knowing that he had no clue that Yahweh forbade what every other diety apparently required. This is why this test could only work prior to Moses receiving the law. You may see a problem with this type of a test but that quite frankly is wholly irrelevant.

[alexey]

Only that wasn't what happened.

God wanted Abraham to prove the extent of his faith, which he did. Not even so much as a gnat was harmed in the process.

Abraham had the intent to slay and the child was harmed in the process.

---------- Post added July-10th-2012 at 09:39 PM ----------

Isn't that kind of the whole point of a test? Abraham was asked to give up the very inheritance which was promised to him, i.e. a legacy through his line. Go knew that Abraham was surrounded by religions which routinely practiced child sacrifice Moloch being one, as such God tested Abraham's faithfulness knowing that he had no clue that Yahweh forbade what every other diety apparently required. This is why this test could only work prior to Moses receiving the law. You may see a problem with this type of a test but that quite frankly is wholly irrelevant.

I think Abraham failed the test.

[Metalhead]

Isn't that kind of the whole point of a test? Abraham was asked to give up the very inheritance which was promised to him, i.e. a legacy through his line. Go knew that Abraham was surrounded by religions which routinely practiced child sacrifice Moloch being one, as such God tested Abraham's faithfulness knowing that he had no clue that Yahweh forbade what every other diety apparently required. This is why this test could only work prior to Moses receiving the law. You may see a problem with this type of a test but that quite frankly is wholly irrelevant.

If child sacrifice was common, then how was it a test? Abraham was prepared to perform the sacrifice. There doesn't seem to be any challenge or conflict within his mind or actions. Is the angels' intervention an example of a deus ex machina to wrap up the story and proclaim human sacrifice as bad?

Edit - For confusion, lol.

[Jumbo]

For myself, I don't have a dog in this fight...it's all very incidental to my views. But were I to respond to HH or ASF (and with full respect) it would be along the lines of suggesting that the point (to me) would be what a twisted idea it is to test on such a premise (or even "artificially test" at all perhaps---life is full of such, more "genuine", tests by nature). Were a person to do such a thing (same test), I would think it a demented act.

If that's an acceptable level of effort from an "Ultimate Supreme Being" to come up with, I would think him a fairly demented and underdeveloped version of "some Supreme Being." And (again, just for me) any "you can't understand God" or "God's ways are mysterious", or any form thereof, is simply the "perfect escape clause" to any argument against anything God is claimed to have done. It always has been/will be, whether true in the end or not. Therefore, it sort of renders all such conversations relatively meaningless or at least leads them all to the same fundamental dead end.

This relates to many other matters of acts or "positions" attributed to God (as I mean by the Christian faith, though they may be shared by other faiths too) striking me the same way---they are so terrifically full of "human" and seem so totally unlike any "supremely advanced being" I'd envision that I often marvel at how it's all not so painfully obvious to believers that this stuff is "all people" (not a God) coming from people, tales of witnessing "miracles" (even if they "witnessed" something) notwithstanding.

And there I don't mean necessarily even mean the discussion of whether you believe in a supreme being that's some type of "conscious entity", but that whether there is one or not, is it the one Christianity describes in such detail (much of which makes little or no sense at all to me, try as I might).

And it's not that I never thought that maybe such a God would have to "keep it real" by "operating on the level of humanity", but the God I read of (here I mean mainly "the OT God") doesn't even seem to have operated even on the level of a really sane, admirable, noble, caring, stable, and intelligent human. I have read of and known simple humans whose thoughts and actions (and whose sacrifices for beloved causes for that matter) seem more impressive.

The reported story of Jesus, in all its details, presents a more impressive figure to me, for example. And yes, I have studied man's relationship with what we term spirituality and world religions essentially most of my life (since about 10-12 yo--sometimes fairly seriously, both experientially and academically), as well as having been raised Catholic and going through Confirmation and First Communion etc.

This is reminding me of when Om and I would talk with Techboy and Zguy back in '06.

For the most part, I am pretty much done with such discussions in this venue.

I often do state that while I am not an atheist because I don't know if there is a "conscious" (as we define it) supreme entity or not for sure, I am also not a Christian. I couldn't be. I would reject some of their important platforms--like "gayness" < having the sexual act, to be specific > being some "sin"---and I'm not gay in case someone wonders-- even were Jesus to appear in front of me and let me know it's all just as they say. Nor could I be a Muslim or subscriber to any other faith. Buddhism may be the closest I could get, and most practitioners don't call that a religion or Buddha a God, of course.

But I still see a need for religion as a part of world of humanity at this stage of our development as a specie, I see much good in it, I actively support it in my community and elsewhere, and think it's a vital tool for teaching very important ideas that facilitate a happier and more productive life for many people. I see the "other side" too, of course, and often with a great deal of regret and sometimes John Lennon-like frustration.

I consider it quite possible, of course, that in time, should we survive, that just as major world religions are much more "sophisticated" than those of previous millennium, that someday there will be less, or no, need for them as a vehicle to advance and promote cooperative and benign behaviors between humans and avoidance of destructive behaviors on a broad social scale. In such a scenario, I don't assume religion vanishes, as much as it takes a very different form than it currently has, just as its current form is far different than various epochs in the past. Boy, did I ramble off there. :pfft:

I return you to your regular programming. :dunce:

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think Abraham failed the test.

You aren't Abraham's judge.

---------- Post added July-10th-2012 at 11:25 PM ----------

If child sacrifice was common, then how was it a test? Abraham was prepared to perform the sacrifice. There doesn't seem to be any challenge or conflict within his mind or actions. Is the angels' intervention an example of a deus ex machina to wrap up the story and proclaim human sacrifice as bad?

Edit - For confusion, lol.

The test is in his wllingness to give up that which he valued most.

[Jumbo]

BTW, I think you're pretty good at your real job, ASF.

[zoony]

It's always easier to point out problems than it is to offer solutions, just as it is easier to attack the beliefs of others rather than offer your own up for scrutiny. In the future, you should at least try to consider the point of the story you're slamming... And how it influenced the opinion you hold today.

Im hoping I have page load issues when I hit reply so this post shows up 3 times...

[DeaconTheVillain]

I don't even know if OP realizes how loaded this thread question is......

Here is a cool gif I found that best fits my answer

---------- Post added July-11th-2012 at 12:09 AM ----------

But I still see a need for religion as a part of world of humanity at this stage of our development as a specie, I see much good in it, I actively support it in my community and elsewhere, and think it's a vital tool for teaching very important ideas that facilitate a happier and more productive life for many people. I see the "other side" too, of course, and often with a great deal of regret and sometimes John Lennon-like frustration.

I consider it quite possible, of course, that in time, should we survive, that just as major world religions are much more "sophisticated" than those of previous millennium, that someday there will be less, or no, need for them as a vehicle to advance and promote cooperative and benign behaviors between humans and avoidance of destructive behaviors on a broad social scale. In such a scenario, I don't assume religion vanishes, as much as it takes a very different form than it currently has, just as its current form is far different than various epochs in the past. Boy, did I ramble off there. :pfft:

South Park did what I thought was a pretty brilliant episode where in the future everyone is an atheist. But, there are different atheist groups. All with different atheist beliefs. And, of course, the Allied Atheist Alliance were at war with the United Atheist Front and the Unified Atheist League due to the fact that each group was so certain their form of atheism was the purest.

[AsburySkinsFan]

BTW, I think you're pretty good at your real job, ASF.

It's really strange at what has happened to my thinking, I used to think I needed to expound paragraph after paragraph to defend my faith from attacks from athiests and others who would challenge my faith, and somewhere along the line something happened, I don't know if I just lost patience with the whole back and forth but I just stopped, now I'm just as satisfied in throwing out a one sentence summary of my thinking rather than wasting a ton of effort on something that won't convince in the first place. For me, that effort is now expended on those who are truly seeking, with serious questions and searching. I just don't care about the temper tantrums of those who just want to make a mockery of my faith. Which is why I appreciate you Jumbo, while we aren't brothers in confession you listen and are sincerely heard.

BTW, thank you.

[Jumbo]

I will say this to you and everyone reading....I regularly revisit all of these typical (and some atypical, i'm sure) themes on spirituality and beliefs, including every concept I've considered a thousand times already, and try to address it as fresh and open as I can each time.

I have had changes in views, sometimes like the tide (ebbing out and drifting in), over time. While commitment to principle, firmness in important stances, and general stability of thinking and acting is all important to me, rigidity of view out of cognitive laziness or habit, and insecurity about anything I think or believe at any time, are never traits I want to allow an easy perch.

I would never want to convince anyone to lean "my way" and away from some such belief they have---I see no good reason to desire such. I often avoid these matters to any deeply serious extent partly for the remote possibility I might influence someone in that direction (no ego involved at all). I believe that while people are ultimately responsible to themselves for the choices they make in being influenced by someone, we are also responsible for the words we choose to speak to the listener (or write for the reader).

Sometimes, I do feel like engaging and revealing some of where I'm at in more detail (like now). Often it's simply because someone said something of particular interest in that moment that evokes the response, but sometimes it's as a matter of openness with the community (mainly for those who weren't around when such posting was more common in my first couple years on ES).

And as you ( and I think TB for the most part---whom I used to caringly caution about getting too wrapped up in pointless, and potentially taxing, debating in this place) have come to find, it's not the kind of topic where one person is likely to "argue" the other from one "side" to another. Yet some very worthy, thoughtful, and meaningful discussion can be had that, if nothing else, might help illuminate some aspect of one's own explorations of these matters.

In this forum, I think we benefit from an unusually intelligent crew of regulars on various sides of these topics.

I actually wish we had more participants of non-Christian and non-atheist/agnostic views.

[Kosher Ham]

So my guess is that Abraham went to hell for directly going against God ? (mostly joke with that part)

I have looked into many religions to develop an opinion.

My opinion on this one is the same as Eve taking the bite from the forbidden fruit.

Side note : Funny to me that people say it was an apple to begin with, and then others say an apple a day keeps the doctor away.

God gives you free will and then sets you up ? Why ? The strongest still have weaknesses as proven through the Bible...stories.

[AsburySkinsFan]

And as you ( and I think TB for the most part---whom I used to caringly caution about getting too wrapped up in pointless, and potentially taxing, debating in this place) have come to find, it's not the kind of topic where one person is likely to "argue" the other from one "side" to another. Yet some very worthy, thoughtful, and meaningful discussion can be had that, if nothing else, might help illuminate some aspect of one's own explorations of these matters.

You're so right, while in seminary we had an online forum where we readily engaged in long and strenuous debate, as a small part I used it to stretch my legs and wrestle through stuff in Really good and yet challenging conversation and disagreement, but for the most part I just wanted to show why I was right. That translated pretty heavily hear in theological debates, some have been very good but those require an openness and genuiness on both sides, I live for those discussions as they are not only challenging but extremely rewarding. I just don't have the desire to engage with someone who's stated purpose is to make people of faith appear foolish.

I was out with my family one day at a BBQ festival, and there was a street preacher there (I have nothing against street preachers in general) but this one was loud and obnoxious and had only a message about how everyone was wrong, when my son asked why I didn't go up to him and set him straight my answer was simply, "Beacause he won't listen." That's the key for me, if folks are genuine then I love to engage with them, even in disagreement, but when there clear agendas, well I just don't have the desire to fight with someone who doesn't respect who I am.

In this forum, I think we benefit from an unusually intelligent crew of regulars on various sides of these topics.

I whole heartedly agree, which is why the genuine conversation, and agenda free discussion can be so rewarding.

I actually wish we had more participants of non-Christian and non-atheist/agnostic views.

Well, to be fair ya'll are in the minority. :pffft:

[Thinking Skins]

Wasn't this on H2 the other night? That was the point of whatever it was I was watching.

Was the point that Abraham was talking to ancient aliens? And that Isaac didn't really need to be sacrificed, because his mind had already been impregnated by aliens in a plan to repopulate the world in their own image?

[mistertim]

I actually wish we had more participants of non-Christian and non-atheist/agnostic views.

We could always have an "ES Religion Draft".

[Mursilis]

Abraham had the intent to slay and the child was harmed in the process.

You don't know the first and how have you established the second?

BTW, has someone been reading Kierkegaard again?

---------- Post added July-11th-2012 at 08:20 AM ----------

I actually wish we had more participants of non-Christian and non-atheist/agnostic views.

Oh, you have a majority in that category - they just aren't admitting it.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Abraham had the intent to slay and the child was harmed in the process.

Here's the fun part: we have no idea how old Isaac was when this all took place.

---------- Post added July-11th-2012 at 08:37 AM ----------

I've always been less interested in the story of Isaac than I am the story of Jacob and Esau.

It's in that story that we get a glimpse, I think, into the mind of God.

Genesis 25, v 27 through 34

27 The boys grew up, and Esau became a skillful hunter, a man of the open country, while Jacob was content to stay at home among the tents. 28 Isaac, who had a taste for wild game, loved Esau, but Rebekah loved Jacob.

29 Once when Jacob was cooking some stew, Esau came in from the open country, famished. 30 He said to Jacob, “Quick, let me have some of that red stew! I’m famished!” (That is why he was also called Edom.[f])

31 Jacob replied, “First sell me your birthright. ”

32 “Look, I am about to die,” Esau said. “What good is the birthright to me?”

33 But Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” So he swore an oath to him, selling his birthright to Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and some lentil stew. He ate and drank, and then got up and left.

So Esau despised his birthright.

Esau comes to his brother, dying of thirst and hunger. Instead of feeding him, Jacob basically steals his birthright from him for some bread and stew. One would think that God would be opposed to this, but nothing is said.

Later, there is the incredible story in Genesis 27.

When Isaac was old and his eyes were so weak that he could no longer see, he called for Esau his older son and said to him, “My son.”

“Here I am,” he answered.

2 Isaac said, “I am now an old man and don’t know the day of my death. 3 Now then, get your equipment—your quiver and bow—and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me. 4 Prepare me the kind of tasty food I like and bring it to me to eat, so that I may give you my blessing before I die.”

5 Now Rebekah was listening as Isaac spoke to his son Esau. When Esau left for the open country to hunt game and bring it back, 6 Rebekah said to her son Jacob, “Look, I overheard your father say to your brother Esau, 7 ‘Bring me some game and prepare me some tasty food to eat, so that I may give you my blessing in the presence of the Lord before I die.’ 8 Now, my son, listen carefully and do what I tell you: 9 Go out to the flock and bring me two choice young goats, so I can prepare some tasty food for your father, just the way he likes it. 10 Then take it to your father to eat, so that he may give you his blessing before he dies.”

11 Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, “But my brother Esau is a hairy man while I have smooth skin. 12 What if my father touches me? I would appear to be tricking him and would bring down a curse on myself rather than a blessing.”

13 His mother said to him, “My son, let the curse fall on me. Just do what I say; go and get them for me.”

14 So he went and got them and brought them to his mother, and she prepared some tasty food, just the way his father liked it. 15 Then Rebekah took the best clothes of Esau her older son, which she had in the house, and put them on her younger son Jacob. 16 She also covered his hands and the smooth part of his neck with the goatskins. 17 Then she handed to her son Jacob the tasty food and the bread she had made.

18 He went to his father and said, “My father.”

“Yes, my son,” he answered. “Who is it?”

19 Jacob said to his father, “I am Esau your firstborn. I have done as you told me. Please sit up and eat some of my game, so that you may give me your blessing.”

20 Isaac asked his son, “How did you find it so quickly, my son?”

“The Lord your God gave me success, ” he replied.

21 Then Isaac said to Jacob, “Come near so I can touch you, my son, to know whether you really are my son Esau or not.”

22 Jacob went close to his father Isaac, who touched him and said, “The voice is the voice of Jacob, but the hands are the hands of Esau.” 23 He did not recognize him, for his hands were hairy like those of his brother Esau; so he proceeded to bless him. 24 “Are you really my son Esau?” he asked.

“I am,” he replied.

25 Then he said, “My son, bring me some of your game to eat, so that I may give you my blessing.”

Jacob brought it to him and he ate; and he brought some wine and he drank. 26 Then his father Isaac said to him, “Come here, my son, and kiss me.”

27 So he went to him and kissed him . When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him and said,

“Ah, the smell of my son

is like the smell of a field

that the Lord has blessed.

28 May God give you heaven’s dew

and earth’s richness —

an abundance of grain and new wine.

29 May nations serve you

and peoples bow down to you.

Be lord over your brothers,

and may the sons of your mother bow down to you.

May those who curse you be cursed

and those who bless you be blessed. ”

30 After Isaac finished blessing him, and Jacob had scarcely left his father’s presence, his brother Esau came in from hunting. 31 He too prepared some tasty food and brought it to his father. Then he said to him, “My father, please sit up and eat some of my game, so that you may give me your blessing.”

32 His father Isaac asked him, “Who are you?”

“I am your son,” he answered, “your firstborn, Esau. ”

33 Isaac trembled violently and said, “Who was it, then, that hunted game and brought it to me? I ate it just before you came and I blessed him—and indeed he will be blessed! ”

34 When Esau heard his father’s words, he burst out with a loud and bitter cry and said to his father, “Bless me—me too, my father!”

35 But he said, “Your brother came deceitfully and took your blessing.”

36 Esau said, “Isn’t he rightly named Jacob[a]? This is the second time he has taken advantage of me: He took my birthright, and now he’s taken my blessing!” Then he asked, “Haven’t you reserved any blessing for me?”

37 Isaac answered Esau, “I have made him lord over you and have made all his relatives his servants, and I have sustained him with grain and new wine. So what can I possibly do for you, my son?”

38 Esau said to his father, “Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father!” Then Esau wept aloud.

39 His father Isaac answered him,

“Your dwelling will be

away from the earth’s richness,

away from the dew of heaven above.

40 You will live by the sword

and you will serve your brother.

But when you grow restless,

you will throw his yoke

from off your neck. ”

41 Esau held a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing his father had given him. He said to himself, “The days of mourning for my father are near; then I will kill my brother Jacob.”

42 When Rebekah was told what her older son Esau had said, she sent for her younger son Jacob and said to him, “Your brother Esau is planning to avenge himself by killing you. 43 Now then, my son, do what I say: Flee at once to my brother Laban in Harran. 44 Stay with him for a while until your brother’s fury subsides. 45 When your brother is no longer angry with you and forgets what you did to him, I’ll send word for you to come back from there. Why should I lose both of you in one day?”

Again, Jacob is a total lout he steals what rightfully belongs to his older brother. And - again - God is fine with it. In fact, in the very next chapter:

Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it[c] stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.[d] 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you. ”

The God of the OT is a harsh God indeed. But he is also one who likes his servants to think. To be crafty. He does not want them to defy him clearly, but he is not want unthinking slaves either.

To me, the story of Abraham's Sacrifice is not a story of God playing a cruel trick. But a story of him laying a template that the old traditions do not govern here. You are not going to be rewarded because you are the oldest or the richest. You are not guaranteed anything because of your birth. You will be rewarded because God has chosen to bless you and you have shown yourself worthy of that blessing.

Really, going forward from this point, all the patriarchs and all the prophets seem to be in a constant negotiation with God. They need to learn when not to push God, but he gives his anointed a remarkable amount of leeway in how they execute his wishes.

[pjfootballer]

We could always have an "ES Religion Draft".

I have dibs on Mary Magdelene. I heard she was hot.