www.sfexaminer.com: Donovan article, taking subtle shots at Coach Shanahan

[CommanderDOOM]

We all saw how big he'd gotten and being out of shape. T.O called it after the Superbowl. We heard the rumors of him being 2-faced or phony. We remembered how he used to throw the rock in the dirt or errant. I initially didn't understand the move but got behind it and convinced myself all would work out. But it didn't. Just like the Haynesworth stomping of the cowboy, Andy Reid benching and then being so willingly to trade McNabb to us should've been enough to make us pump the brakes. Shanahan gettin doked like that doesn't look good in hindsight but trust that he and Kyle also share blame in the game planning/management of No. 5 . It's weird cuz at times we looked like a problem per Texans,Colts and others it looked like we had an offense full of Betty Whites. The 2nd and 3rd or 4th stings.

[NewCliche21]

There seems to be a big influx of new posters lately. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any that give me hope for them contributing well-thought-out, non-inflammatory, non-strawman posts.

That's pretty disappointing.

[Jumbo]

SirClintonPortis will be missing the next 5 days. Don't be like him (too many of you guys are doing this again).

I always found it weird,too, that 90% of the time it's done that after the long-ass quoted text part there's usually only a couple of sentences or a "yeh, that" sort of post as the response. :dunce:

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If you would like to respond to the contents of a particular post, simply quote the sentence or idea that you're commenting upon, not necessarily the entire post. When you use the quote feature there will be a blue arrow that looks like this-- --simply click on it and it will take you to the original, full version of the post you just quoted. Or if you're referencing a picture, for example, just refer to the post number and a brief description (i.e. "Post #324's wild! What kind of animal is that?")

[CommanderDOOM]

There seems to be a big influx of new posters lately. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any that give me hope for them contributing well-thought-out, non-inflammatory, non-strawman posts.

That's pretty disappointing.

Your kinda being a dick with this post.

[TheMatt28]

Musgrave may not have Shanny's resume but Kyle on the other hand... if it weren't for good old fashioned American nepotism, well... lets just say... Kyle might still be a graduate assistant at UCLA, having to earn his shot at one of the most coveted sports jobs in the world, without daddy making phone calls for him in the process.

Your post would make sense if Kyle was never a coordinator & Mike just brought him over here, that's nepotism. Kyle was a position coach & worked his way up, it wasn't just handed to him in Houston from the get go. Kyle and Gary Kubiak developed a great offense over there and the only reason the Texans didn't make the playoffs is because their defense has been flat out bad for a long time.

[Jumbo]

Your kinda being a dick with this post.

Due to no small part of your previous history of rule violations, and how you crossed a line in expressing your opinion that NC21 didn't, you kinda got yourself a week off.

Note, too, when you return...you're running out of leash.

[NewCliche21]

Your kinda being a dick with this post.

Nah, I don't think so. I can see how you'd say that as I might sound self-righteous or whatnot, but to me, it's just disappointing to see new users whose comments are either very drive-by or very, well, loud.

I'm not going to claim that I make posts like Wyvern's and Jumbo's response, along with Tarhog, Henry, and Om's occasional thoughts, and MTH's encyclopedic knowledge of all things FedEx/jerseys/underwear brands the players wear before, during, and after games, etc. However, I do try to make an effort to not scream "talking points" like this is a comments section on a news site. I actually liked the post that you have at the top of this page.

[tiger187126]

Nah, I don't think so. I can see how you'd say that as I might sound self-righteous or whatnot, but to me, it's just disappointing to see new users whose comments are either very drive-by or very, well, loud.

I'm not going to claim that I make posts like Wyvern's and Jumbo's response, along with Tarhog, Henry, and Om's occasional thoughts, and MTH's encyclopedic knowledge of all things FedEx/jerseys/underwear brands the players wear before, during, and after games, etc. However, I do try to make an effort to not scream "talking points" like this is a comments section on a news site. I actually liked the post that you have at the top of this page.

i'm with you. this board seems to be getting worse every day. it reads like espn's "experts" who are really just old players who like to say things to get them ratings. i got banned for blowing up at a guy who was basically spamming "sign olinemen" without adding anything else.

i just get so sick of reading comments by people who take no effort to make real connections between the football field and what they say, it's just all about what they think or heard one time so it must be true.

it's the same deal with mcnabb, i think people build him up to be better than he is and when he comes up short it's always someone's fault who doesn't wear #5.

you can make excuses for any quarterback in the NFL, because no one has an ideal situation. some just make more out of their situation than others and that's what makes them winners.

mcnabb was given a long time in philly with a pretty darn good situation and could never get over the hump. they bring in TO because he doesn't have "weapons" and then suddenly TO is a bad guy when they don't win.

to have a reputation you have to at some point acknowledge it, and he's always been a victim to everyone who's not watching his teams.

[blindlywewander]

Donovan who?

I've already blocked out most of this past year and all of Jim Zorn

[georgiaredskin]

I wonder how many "Strengths" McNabb has left other than his deep ball, we'll see. As for Bill Musgrave, I'll take Mike Shanahan over him all day long.

Certainly not the short pass. He threw so low I thought he was throwing to leprechauns or gnomes!

[redskinsfan4life29]

It all comes back to trying to fit square pegs into round holes. You bring McNabb in because he's had a successful career elsewhere, and then TOTALLY change everything that's made him who he is. Well, it didn't work. Some of it's Donovan's fault, some of it's the Shanny's fault. But I'm so ready to MOVE ON.

McNabb and Haynesworth complaining about coaches not letting them be themselves. What else is new?

I agreed with u till u said mcnabb always takes shots...He doesnt if anything hes a professional

---------- Post added August-8th-2011 at 01:09 AM ----------

I can't wait to see what happens when things start going wrong in Minnesota what they start saying then. Their true colors will show. Every coach that truly believes in their system, and is successful with it, will want his players to operate within the scheme. When they brought McNabb in the idea was always that he was a good fit. That didn't pan out, unfortunately, but to act like every coach should pander their scheme to their players is so incredibly naive and selfish that it's disgusting to hear. When the Pats got rid of Randy Moss, the first thing coming out of their camp was how great it will be that they can go back to just working their system and plugging players in. Yes, they had to utilize Randy Moss in a certain way and did change their offensive scheme a bit to pander to his strengths, but in the end, it actually held them back once Randy's skills declined just a tiny bit.

The Shanahan's have proven that one thing they do know is how to run an NFL offense. Andy Reid got sick of McNabb's "big play or bust" mentality as well which is, perhaps, the biggest reason he traded him. McNabb has proven his style of play is woefully inconsistent and while the big play can occur at any time with him, the rest of the time you're going to get balls thrown into the dirt, 3 and outs, and a defense gassed because the offense can't stay on the field for an extended drive. We'll see how well that works for Minnesota if they pander to McNabb.

As you can tell, I really don't blame Shanny for the trade. I'd do it again. I really felt like McNabb was mobile enough to be a great bootleg passer and he's shown in his career that he can pass on the run as well as anyone. You can argue that Shanahan should've known McNabb has been inaccurate on his short throws, but you can't blame him for thinking that wasn't going to make or break how well he does in the system. Looking back, you'd think McNabb would be a great fit for the type of bootleg-passing QB Shanny looks for... it just didn't work out in the end and I'm glad once that was understood they didn't keep trying to force it. That's what my sig is for there and I totally get what Shanny is saying.

Wait a minute mcnabb inconsistant?I remember he took an eagles team with pinkston thrash freddie mitchell to 4 nfc championship games....He made it to the superbowl without owens.....Hes an all pro 6 time probowler twice as many tds to interceptions.One of five quarterbacks of all time to have over 30,000 passing yards and 3,000 rushing yards...3 of those guys hall of famers. McNabb ranks fourth best all-time in career interception percentage (2.20%) among NFL quarterbacks. Among quarterbacks with at least 1,500 pass attempts.Oh and another stat for u.First NFL Quarterback ever to throw for more than 30 touchdowns and fewer than 10 interceptions.that was in 04.the onl star wr he had was owens.....Im sick and tired of hearing about how bad people think mcnabb is.Just cause he used to woop us every year and then shanahan had him take a crap on us last year doesnt make him bad...for ur info mcnabb is 15th all time in yards ahead of brady who is just one yr younger.mcnabb will have atleast 15 tds the next 4 years which would have him 7th all time in passing tds.Hes a HOF.U think mcnabb didnt care?i believe he wanted to be a redskin the fans treated him like garbage just like the shanahans.Good luck with beck and his losing

[Redskin Diehard]

Your post would make sense if Kyle was never a coordinator & Mike just brought him over here, that's nepotism. Kyle was a position coach & worked his way up, it wasn't just handed to him in Houston from the get go. Kyle and Gary Kubiak developed a great offense over there and the only reason the Texans didn't make the playoffs is because their defense has been flat out bad for a long time.

I wish I could give Kyle the benefit of the doubt on this one but he's another Brian Shottenheimer, if you ask me. If their daddies weren't highly respected NFL coaches, neither one of them would have become offensive coordinators this fast in their careers otherwise. I mean its not like either guy is completely clueless or incompetent. Reality is though... come on... let's be completely honest about this for one minute... there's no way otherwise.

Kyle was a graduate assistant at UCLA for one year. The next season Jon Gruden hired him to be an "offensive assistant coach" on his staff in Tampa Bay. Two years later his pedigree got him the QB coach position on Gary Kubiak's staff in Houston. If daddy didn't call in a favor to Kubes on this one, I would be shocked and amazed. When Mike Sherman left the Texans to become Texas A&M head coach, Kubiak promoted Shanny Boy to Offensive Coordinator.

Now, I'm not saying dude's meteoric rise would have happened the way it did if he was a stumbling bumbling boob of course. I'm sure one of the reasons he advanced so quickly was because he worked hard at the very least but the fact that he and Gary Kubiak come from the same coaching tree is probably what helped their chemistry evolve at such an accelerated pace more than anything else.

I hope this Donovan thing turns into a speedbump for Shanny & Son eventually but if for some reason the funky aroma never goes away, that still lingers at Redskins Park just a little bit, at some point it will be fair to examine whether or not daddy's offensive coordinator hire made this thing too close to home, dooming it to fail. Not to be too dramatic but have you ever worked for a company or in an environment where the owner's son(s) or daughter(s) had contact with you from time to time. I have on several occassions and in each case I never witnessed the owners kid get the same treatment as everybody else. Its almost always understood who's side daddy or mommy will take in the case of a dispute involving one of their offspring.

Again, I hope I'm wrong but the jury is still out. It will take at least one more season of impartial observation and evaluation before I start drinking the Shanahan Kool-Aid again.

[KCClybun]

You're right, Redskin Diehard. I mean, it's clear nepotism. I mean, clearly Kyle Shanahan and Brian Shottenheimer both are the only examples of nepotism in the NFL.

Well, and Rex Ryan. Oh, and Rob Ryan. And Wade Phillips. And Jay Gruden. And Jim Mora. And Mike Nolan. Or the dozens of other examples.

The fact of the matter is, Kyle worked his way up coaching trees just like anyone else would work their way up the coaching tree. Did having the last name "Shanahan" help him? Arguably. But the NFL is full of coaches putting their sons, brothers and assorted other family members on their staffs. Mike only put Kyle on his staff AFTER he had made his way up the NFL coaching tree the same, traditional way everyone else did.

We all know what they say about people who assume things...

[Hooper]

Remember the huge player outcry in Philly when they dumped McNabb for a completely unproven Kolb? Yeah, neither do I.

The guy is done. He's too inaccurate for any scheme to work on a regular basis and his legs are shot.

And he is also the only player I have ever heard complain about Kyle Shanahan's scheme. It is a QB and receivers dream.

I will bet anyone on this board that whoever is our QB this year has a better year than McNabb.

[Sebowski]

Bill Musgrave:

"It's not a system where we're going to sit here and say, 'Donovan didn't fit or another player didn't fit,'" Musgrave said. "We're going to customize our system to really play to their strengths.

"I think you do that not only with a veteran guy, but also with a young guy. Whether it be Donovan or Christian, we want to identify their traits that can help us win and play to their strengths."

This only makes sense. Don't know how anyone can argue with it.

[Enter Apotheosis]

2.) ...Again, I have to ask the question; how many Super Bowls did John Elway win without Mike Shanahan as his head coach? Taking nothing away from Elway, Mike helped build a Broncos team around him to finally help Elway to get over the hump and win his two rings. And he won another ring with the 49ers as OC. Clearly he has to know something about something.

People act like Elway had four rings before Shanahan, or that Terrell Davis was a first round draft pick, or that the offensive line was brilliant, the defense was top 10. Mike built that team that won the Super Bowl. Winning four rings is hard. Period. Getting back there is tough. Finding the guys to do it is tougher.

Relatively few people around here seem to know much about Mike Shanahan's career outside of the fact that he won two consecutive Super Bowls with John Elway. To make matters even worse, most of the people who choose to partially or even incorrectly cite his history don't actually have any interest in filling the gaping holes in their knowledge. It's somewhat frustrating, really.

I wish I could give Kyle the benefit of the doubt on this one but he's another Brian Shottenheimer, if you ask me. If their daddies weren't highly respected NFL coaches, neither one of them would have become offensive coordinators this fast in their careers otherwise. I mean its not like either guy is completely clueless or incompetent. Reality is though... come on... let's be completely honest about this for one minute... there's no way otherwise.

Connections count for something in any business or social situation. Some people have to work hard to obtain valuable connections others are just thrust into them. Life isn't fair like that... but it's important not to become jaded and assume that a guy like Kyle isn't really goddamned good at some of the things he does.

Kyle was a graduate assistant at UCLA for one year. The next season Jon Gruden hired him to be an "offensive assistant coach" on his staff in Tampa Bay. Two years later his pedigree got him the QB coach position on Gary Kubiak's staff in Houston. If daddy didn't call in a favor to Kubes on this one, I would be shocked and amazed. When Mike Sherman left the Texans to become Texas A&M head coach, Kubiak promoted Shanny Boy to Offensive Coordinator.

Gruden actually got his start in much the same way Kyle did. Jim Gruden set up an interview for him with Mike Holmgren and the younger Gruden was hired on as a quality control coach. It's the same job Kyle had under Gruden and basically just translates to a coaching internship. Neither Kyle nor Gruden would likely have had such an easy time getting an interview in the first place were it not for their family ties but at least they were impressive enough on their own to warrant employment with the opportunity provided to them. Jim Mora also got his start in similar fashion, IIRC. I strongly doubt Mike had to call in a favor with Kubiak, by the way. Kubiak has been familiar with Kyle for a long time, dating back to his days as a clipboard holder for Elway in the 80s.

Brian Schottenheimer, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, and Wade Phillips all were directly hired into their first NFL positions by their respective fathers. It's a slightly less admirable approach to those of us without NFL contacts but each of those guys still have proven to have worth as NFL coaches (even if they all seem to top out ability-wise at coordinator with the possible exception of Rex). That should serve as a reminder that even seemingly blatant nepotism may actually be justifiable some of the time.

Now, I'm not saying dude's meteoric rise would have happened the way it did if he was a stumbling bumbling boob of course. I'm sure one of the reasons he advanced so quickly was because he worked hard at the very least but the fact that he and Gary Kubiak come from the same coaching tree is probably what helped their chemistry evolve at such an accelerated pace more than anything else.

Spending your entire life around truly top-notch NFL coaches also counts for a rather significant chunk of the meteoric rise. Kyle started out well ahead of the game experience-wise before he even took off for college.

[Commander PK]

This only makes sense. Don't know how anyone can argue with it.

It makes sense for Bill Musgrave and the Vikings.

The Redskins chose to go a different direction, which will hopefully lead to better results than the Vikings will get by "catering" to McNabb.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[MartinC]

This only makes sense. Don't know how anyone can argue with it.

Andy Reid got great results from McNabb by doing just this - adjusting his scheme to fit McNabbs big play style of play. People keep talking about how McNabb has played in a WCO but I would say thats not the case. Reid moved away from a rythym based ball control passing attack to a big play vertical attack to cater for what McNabb does well and to hide his issues in the shorter game and with his footwork which hinder his ability to be consistent with his accuracy short and medium.

That made total sense, though I would question why Reid did not do more to work on McNabbs weaknesses when he was a younger QB to mske him a more rounded and complete player. Maybe he tried.

Now McNabb is a short term rental - he has a couple of years in the tank at best as a starter in the NFL. So junking your system makes no sense for a Redskins team which is installing a brand new system and is bringing along younger players. You can certainly question why we traded for him in the first place (I did) but the decision to trade him away, even for what amounts to a ham sandwich, was the only sensible thing to do.

The Vikes are in a closing window to win now with an ageing team. Taking McNabb and bending their system around him might make sense though my own view is the window has aready shut for both the Vikes and McNabb.

[grego]

I agreed with u till u said mcnabb always takes shots...He doesnt if anything hes a professional

i thought that at one time. after the debacle with the double talk from him and his agent last year, and the rumblings from the insiders, i changed my mind.

Wait a minute mcnabb inconsistant?I remember he took an eagles team with pinkston thrash freddie mitchell to 4 nfc championship games..

this has been discussed ad nauseum. all that stuff was in the past. everyone loses it eventually and last year appeared to be his time.

Good luck with beck and his losing

you dont know if beck is any good or not. nobody does. why would you say that? honestly, your post sounds like you love mcnabb more than the team you are supposed to be rooting for. weird.

I will bet anyone on this board that whoever is our QB this year has a better year than McNabb.

i actually agree with you. all i've heard is that our QB position is a ?, so we are going to win 3 games. i'm sorry, but i think grossman is more than capable of duplicating mcnabbs performance from last year. and i'll also bet he exceeds it. it wouldnt be that hard.

edit- someone just talked about this very thing on the junkies. lurch said the QB position wasnt better this year even if the rest of the team is, partly cuz of grossmans turnovers. people forget that mcnabb fumbles at a similar rate to grossman- only real difference was mcnabb was lucky to have almost all of his recovered. grossman wasnt.

[VaBeachRedskin]

I dunno. I'll take the word of a 2-time Super Bowl winning coach over Musgrave and McNabb. Just sayin'

Bill Walsh said the same thing as Musgrave though. Something along the lines of the measure of a good coach is how he is able to use the players at his disposal instead of trying to pound pieces into their predetermined system.

[Commander PK]

Bill Walsh said the same thing as Musgrave though. Something along the lines of the measure of a good coach is how he is able to use the players at his disposal instead of trying to pound pieces into their predetermined system.

but see this is kind of the whole point. The Redskins are not pounding anything to fit their system now. The Redskins are now picking up players to plug in to their system. Players with unique abilities that will match what the team is looking for at that position. "System" players. McNabb is going to be the exception not the rule under the Shanahan regime. I don't think we will be seeing anymore moves like that one.

[wilburmarshall]

Not very classy of McNabb. He should just move on, and let his play speak for himself. Comments about a former employer should be kept out of the media until you retire.

[MartinC]

Bill Walsh said the same thing as Musgrave though. Something along the lines of the measure of a good coach is how he is able to use the players at his disposal instead of trying to pound pieces into their predetermined system.

Interesting then to look at how Bill Walsh handled Steve Young. Young when he came from Tampa was an athletic QB with very good arm but who tended to be a one read then run QB who relied on the big play had also got a bit gun shy playing on a terrible Tampa team. So did Walsh junk his system and adapt it to mold around what Young did well - ie throw on the run and make big plays?

No - he had the luxury to sit him behind Joe Montana for a couple of years while his OC worked on Steves footwork and timing, taught him the system and had him work on playing within the system, male his reads, show paitence and use his running only when the play broke down or pressure required it. When Young bought into the scheme - how could he not do having watched Montana make it work like clockwork - he played lights out and the results were stellar.

Mike Shanahan was the OC working with Steve Young by the way. I think he thought he could get McNabb to improve himself and buy in the way Steve Young did, he was wrong.

[Bang]

So I'm just curiuous as to which strengths Musgrave will build towards.

McNabb's short and intermediate game isn't sharp, and that is being nice.

Last year his deep ball was terrible,, I don't know how many times Armstrong had to stop and wait for the ball while he had 2 and 3 steps on the defense.

His caliber of receivers aren't any better in Minnesota, and there isn't a Chris Cooley go-to up there.

He can't run anymore. He doesn't appear to be able to throw anymore.

They will adjust to his strength of handing the ball to Adrian Petersen.

~Bang

[tiger187126]

So I'm just curiuous as to which strengths Musgrave will build towards.

McNabb's short and intermediate game isn't sharp, and that is being nice.

Last year his deep ball was terrible,, I don't know how many times Armstrong had to stop and wait for the ball while he had 2 and 3 steps on the defense.

His caliber of receivers aren't any better in Minnesota, and there isn't a Chris Cooley go-to up there.

He can't run anymore. He doesn't appear to be able to throw anymore.

They will adjust to his strength of handing the ball to Adrian Petersen.

~Bang

the strength he's referring to is the lack of ability or desire to learn anything. that and the ability to convince everyone not in the locker room that he's not responsible for anything.

i would say that i can't wait until we play him this year, but odds are he's probably not starting by then. perhaps his awesome sideline looks will be properly utilized there. i mean we waited too many weeks to see all the gif-worthy looks he can give.