Rollingstone.com: The Kill Team, How U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan murdered innocent civilians and mutilated their corpses – and how their officers failed to stop them.

[Springfield]

I'm fairly liberal...

From what I read and what I watched, that seemed like a smear piece to me. It definitely had an agenda. I'm certainly quick to recognize when the "other" side has a bias (I particularly hate FoxNews) but this is about as bad as I've seen it. I don't see anything wrong with the video (I watched the 2nd one) other than the music. Maybe my viewpoint has changed since my days of being a "hippie", but I feel like nobody on this board is out there right now. I'm not out there right now. I'm not sweating my ass off in the middle of the night, trying to sleep, hating where I was. Nobody on this board is over in Iraq or Afghanistan right now. All the people on the board can say is, "The roses smell nice and the grass is green. Thank god the housing market is coming back around."

So they killed innocent civilians, that's what is going on? That's war. If it is something that Americans can't accept, then we shouldn't do it.

[twa]

Just to be contrary...the housing market is tanking...again.

[Hubbs]

I'm fairly liberal...

From what I read and what I watched, that seemed like a smear piece to me. It definitely had an agenda. I'm certainly quick to recognize when the "other" side has a bias (I particularly hate FoxNews) but this is about as bad as I've seen it. I don't see anything wrong with the video (I watched the 2nd one) other than the music. Maybe my viewpoint has changed since my days of being a "hippie", but I feel like nobody on this board is out there right now. I'm not out there right now. I'm not sweating my ass off in the middle of the night, trying to sleep, hating where I was. Nobody on this board is over in Iraq or Afghanistan right now. All the people on the board can say is, "The roses smell nice and the grass is green. Thank god the housing market is coming back around."

So they killed innocent civilians, that's what is going on? That's war. If it is something that Americans can't accept, then we shouldn't do it.

Erm... unless I missed something, they killed innocent civilians on purpose. It wasn't collateral damage. It was deliberate targeting of civilians. If you don't have a problem with that, then you're seriously ****ed up in the head.

(By the way, don't know if you've seen housing data lately, but the market is doing the exact opposite of "coming back around.")

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

So they killed innocent civilians, that's what is going on? That's war. If it is something that Americans can't accept, then we shouldn't do it.

I think you might want to read the article again.

These soldiers killed innocent civilians INTENTIONALLY.

[No Excuses]

These soldiers killed innocent civilians INTENTIONALLY.

Civilians that included harmless children.

This thread couldn't have been complete without someone giving a really stupid rationale.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Civilians that included harmless children.

This thread couldn't have been complete without someone giving a really stupid rationale.

I'm going to give Springfieldskins the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just skimmed through the article. :2cents:

[deejaydana]

Since when has People had long stories about Afghanistan or Goldman Sachs?

The content has declined, measureably, over the past 20 years. They used to feature writers with incredible merit and chops. Now it's much more about product placement, which is, centrally about its success more than anything else. My implication is that its standards have declined. Or maybe mine just matured, hard to tell at times.

[Springfield]

Meh, simply trying to play devil's advocate. While I don't think that the troops are innocent, I think there is a lot of gray in the fog of war. I didn't really like the way the article was written as well. Too much trying to write a narrative and too little trying to report a story.

PS: Don't tell me that the housing market is tanking again. I'm buying a condo right now.

---------- Post added March-30th-2011 at 01:12 AM ----------

I'm going to give Springfieldskins the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just skimmed through the article. :2cents:

And no, I didn't read the whole thing. I got about two pages in and it lost my interest. I really didn't like the writing of the article at all. It's like that time I was watching Glen Beck and said to myself, "this dude is freaking nuts." and stopped paying attention to him even though my coworker was still watching his drivel.

[No Excuses]

And no, I didn't read the whole thing. I got about two pages in and it lost my interest. I really didn't like the writing of the article at all. It's like that time I was watching Glen Beck and said to myself, "this dude is freaking nuts." and stopped paying attention to him even though my coworker was still watching his drivel.

Funny you mention Beck. You basically pulled a Glen Beck by not fully reading what happened and then passing of a strong opinion. :2cents:

[Spec138]

Terribly sad story but a good article IMO. Morlock sounds like a serial killer straight from a movie taking tokens from his victims.

The reaction to this story is expected, but it is interesting to me that this story of a few civilian deaths has received so much outrage from the public, even though that number is negligible compared to the total number of civilians killed. I guess it's the thought that counts. The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.

[JimboDaMan]

Meh, simply trying to play devil's advocate. While I don't think that the troops are innocent, I think there is a lot of gray in the fog of war. I didn't really like the way the article was written as well. Too much trying to write a narrative and too little trying to report a story.

PS: Don't tell me that the housing market is tanking again. I'm buying a condo right now.

---------- Post added March-30th-2011 at 01:12 AM ----------

And no, I didn't read the whole thing. I got about two pages in and it lost my interest. I really didn't like the writing of the article at all. It's like that time I was watching Glen Beck and said to myself, "this dude is freaking nuts." and stopped paying attention to him even though my coworker was still watching his drivel.

I'll agree with you that parts of the article were strangely and poorly written. You can infer that this was a result of the author's bias, although to be honest it didn't seem to actually bolster any particular agenda. They lumped together commonplace incidents, unfortunate incidents, and truly evil actions. The atrocities described (and admitted to) don't need any embellishing, and they are what people are reacting to in this thread.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Terribly sad story but a good article IMO. Morlock sounds like a serial killer straight from a movie taking tokens from his victims.

The reaction to this story is expected, but it is interesting to me that this story of a few civilian deaths has received so much outrage from the public, even though that number is negligible compared to the total number of civilians killed. I guess it's the thought that counts. The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.

To me, this story puts a face on what is happening. Granted, it may have happened more than the handful of times that have been reported in this particular article, but this article sheds light and gives examples. Also, though tragic, I certain do distinguish between civilians who are killed during the course of war and civilians who are murdered for entertainment. One is collateral damage and is something you HAVE to be willing to accept if you ever go to war. The other is not and should never be tolerated.

[Madison Redskin]

I'm fairly liberal...

From what I read and what I watched, that seemed like a smear piece to me. It definitely had an agenda. I'm certainly quick to recognize when the "other" side has a bias (I particularly hate FoxNews) but this is about as bad as I've seen it. I don't see anything wrong with the video (I watched the 2nd one) other than the music. Maybe my viewpoint has changed since my days of being a "hippie", but I feel like nobody on this board is out there right now. I'm not out there right now. I'm not sweating my ass off in the middle of the night, trying to sleep, hating where I was. Nobody on this board is over in Iraq or Afghanistan right now. All the people on the board can say is, "The roses smell nice and the grass is green. Thank god the housing market is coming back around."

So they killed innocent civilians, that's what is going on? That's war. If it is something that Americans can't accept, then we shouldn't do it.

You harbor the same views about members of the Taliban and Al Qaeda that intententionally murder and dismember civilians, right? After all, we can't judge them since we haven't walked in their shoes and civilians are going to die in war anyways, right?

The difference between "us" and "them" is that we do not orchestrate campaigns that intentionally target civilians and, when we discover a small cluster of ****s that are doing so, we throw them in jail. We don't look the other way ... of at least most of us don't.

[Destino]

So they killed innocent civilians, that's what is going on? That's war. If it is something that Americans can't accept, then we shouldn't do it.

They didn't kill innocent civilians in the midst of a war. They murdered them. Planned, executed, and covered up. They took trophies like serial killers and planned to continue murdering and escalating their violence. This is why I wouldn't be surprised to learn one of those guys is a sociopath or a psychopath the behavior isn't that of a solider gone wild. It's several planned incidents.

[artmonkforHOF]

the only proper justice for this lot is to hand them over to the Afghan people for prosecution. Some might say that is nuts, sending US citizens overseas for prosecution, but what about Omar Khadr? A Canadian citizen, who went to Afghanistan and threw a grenade at US soldiers killing him, was subsequently captured by the US, detained at Gitmo and charged with "murder in violation of the law of war" and "providing material support for terrorism"

Sounds to me like these soldiers are at least guilty of murder in violation of the law of war, and something tells me a decent lawyer could probably get the terrorism charges to stick as well. The argument for not sending these soldiers overseas for prosecution is that they will not get a fair trial, well tough s***, then don't kill civilians.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

art, that would be tempting. In the end, I would be against that though. I think we should be very hard on these guys though and let the world see that we don't condone these actions.

[Popeman38]

Some people are reading too much into this, and some are reading too little into this. The Kill Team committed war crimes. POINT BLANK. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. HOWEVER, people are missing the point that these teams are small.

An infantry squad is composed of a Squad Leader (SSG), 2 Fire Team Leaders (SGTs), and 3 members of each Fire Team. That means that there is 9-10 infantrymen in a squad. A Stryker Brigade consists of 3 Stryker battalions. That battalion consists of 3 Stryker companies. Each company is comprised of 3 Rifle Platoons. Each Platoon consists of 3 rifle squads. As you can see, a Stryker Brigade is made up of approx 4,000 people. This kill team, and the squads worth of people that knew about it made up less then .25% of the brigade.

Should this have happened? HELL NO. Did RS paint this story to implicate an entire SBCT? Yes. Specifically en entire company, even though the entire company was not housed at the same FOB.

---------- Post added March-30th-2011 at 11:55 AM ----------

Additionally, this was written about children:

The members of Bravo Company began to talk incessantly about killing Afghans as they went about their daily chores, got stoned or relaxed over a game of Warhammer. One idea, proposed half in jest, was to throw candy out of a Stryker vehicle as they drove through a village and shoot the children who came running to pick up the sweets. According to one soldier, they also talked about a second scenario in which they "would throw candy out in front and in the rear of the Stryker; the Stryker would then run the children over." Another elaborate plan involved waiting for an IED attack, then using the explosion as an excuse to kill civilians. That way, the soldiers reasoned, "you could shoot anyone in the general area and get away with it."

NOWHERE did the article state that any of this happened. It was just talk. Gallows talk, but just talk. In this thread, people have stated this happened. I t did NOT happen.

[Predicto]

Some people are reading too much into this, and some are reading too little into this. The Kill Team committed war crimes. POINT BLANK. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. HOWEVER, people are missing the point that these teams are small.

Unless the article is flat out lying to us, there were a hell of a lot of people outside the kill team who knew what was going on and did nothing. And a hell of a lot more who should have known what was going on if they were doing their jobs. That is the real point, at least to me.

Additionally, this was written about children:NOWHERE did the article state that any of this happened. It was just talk. Gallows talk, but just talk. In this thread, people have stated this happened. I t did NOT happen.

True, the candy incident didn't actually happen. But they did murder children - the very first person they murdered was a 15 year old boy working in a field.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Unless the article is flat out lying to us, there were a hell of a lot of people outside the kill team who knew what was going on and did nothing. And a hell of a lot more who should have known what was going on if they were doing their jobs. That is the real point, at least to me.

True, the candy incident didn't actually happen. But they did murder children - the very first person they murdered was a 15 year old boy working in a field.

Agree with everything above!

The fact that they didn't get a chance to follow-through on a sick fantasy that 99.999999% of people would never have the capacity to imagine doesn't do much to make them look better. However, a good clarification nonetheless.

[grego]

i get where springfield is coming from.

i would never excuse the soldiers for what they did (not sure whats true and whats alleged but obviously whats alleged is terrible and should be dealt with severely if true), but its the way its written.

i think some of us are the types who just want the facts, without all the editorializing/embellishment/hyperbole/whatever that is done to cause the reader to feel a certain way. i dont like to feel like someone is messing with my feeling for the sake of a good story. it makes me feel like half of what they are saying is bullcrap.

just out of curiosity, given their left leaning rep, has rolling stone put out any articles, stories, op-ed pieces, etc. that could be considered 'pro-military'? the pro military angle is one that the left tends to not get behind, and that, as an ex marine, really pisses me off.

[Nerm]

the only proper justice for this lot is to hand them over to the Afghan people for prosecution. Some might say that is nuts, sending US citizens overseas for prosecution, but what about Omar Khadr? A Canadian citizen, who went to Afghanistan and threw a grenade at US soldiers killing him, was subsequently captured by the US, detained at Gitmo and charged with "murder in violation of the law of war" and "providing material support for terrorism"

Sounds to me like these soldiers are at least guilty of murder in violation of the law of war, and something tells me a decent lawyer could probably get the terrorism charges to stick as well. The argument for not sending these soldiers overseas for prosecution is that they will not get a fair trial, well tough s***, then don't kill civilians.

I think a better option might be to have villigers be brought to the us to testify at sentencing (though I think sentencing already happened in some cases). I'm not sure how these trials work, but I would really want the families and friends to be able to see people are being held accountable. If death sentences are an option, they could be allowed to witness it, etc.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think a better option might be to have villigers be brought to the us to testify at sentencing (though I think sentencing already happened in some cases). I'm not sure how these trials work, but I would really want the families and friends to be able to see people are being held accountable. If death sentences are an option, they could be allowed to witness it, etc.

I agree...I want the people of the world to see that we don't turn a blind eye when our citizens are war criminals.

[Nerm]

This is a post I had in another thread -

----

When the Iraq war started, I was doing an internship in the VA treating vets with PTSD. Mostly Vietnam era vets. I was able to talk with a lot of people who had a very real sense of what the personal consequences of war are. Most of these guys’ lives had been devastated by their experiences in Nam, and they were considered the survivors. Several of them had children who were in the Army who were about to be sent to Iraq. The treatment for PTSD included exposure therapy, which consists of the vets giving detailed accounts of their experiences that have led to the PTSD. War is hell. There was a strong theme of these people never being able to trust others again. They got to see how evil people can be (including themselves) under the right circumstances.

Decades after the war, they still wouldn’t allow their curtains to be open at home, because they couldn’t feel safe. In a restaurant, they had to sit with their backs to a wall because they needed to be able to keep an eye on everyone and watch who was coming through the door. Many of them had left their wives and children, because they didn’t trust themselves not to hurt their family. Others that were still married would occasionally wake up from a nightmare and realize they had their hands wrapped around their wife’s throat and were choking them in their sleep. On the 4th of July, they would stay in their basements because they couldn’t handle the constant sound of firecrackers. Some would refuse to leave their house if a neighbor had just cut the lawn, because it smelled like Vietnam.

----

To expand on this, as it relates to this article, I think the Afghanistan war is going to have a lot of similar long term consequences for the soldiers involved. I want to discuss the guilt aspect of this as it relates to the Vets. However, I want to make it clear that, I am not in any way sympathizing with anyone would participate in premeditated murder. That is not at all the intent of this post. Additionally, I would never discuss specific information that Vets have discussed with me. These are just some common themes that a lot of Vets are dealing with.

When it comes to the guilt aspect, I have seen this as an issue that so many struggle with. So many of these kids have to make life altering, split second decisions, where there is not enough information. Some will have a situation where for the rest of their lives they are asking themselves “Did I shoot too soon? What if he wasn’t really a threat?” Others have to live with the consequences of not shooting soon enough. “I saw the guy, but I did nothing and he killed someone right next to me.”

I have also seen people really struggle with the way they began to dehumanize the enemy and eventually the rest of the population. I heard from a lot of Vets that would say “When I went there, I was a good person.” But eventually their hatred or apathy would grow. Then they come back and try to fit into their families. Often thinking to themselves “If they knew the things I thought and said over there they would be disgusted by me”. I think a lot of the soldiers that were sharing the photos and videos of these deaths will struggle with these types of issues once they are out of the war zone.

One final note – My experiences are almost exclusively with people who continue to struggle with these issues after several decades. A lot of people are able to adjust.

[RansomthePasserby]

Meh, simply trying to play devil's advocate. While I don't think that the troops are innocent, I think there is a lot of gray in the fog of war. I didn't really like the way the article was written as well. Too much trying to write a narrative and too little trying to report a story.

And no, I didn't read the whole thing. I got about two pages in and it lost my interest. I really didn't like the writing of the article at all. It's like that time I was watching Glen Beck and said to myself, "this dude is freaking nuts." and stopped paying attention to him even though my coworker was still watching his drivel.

I read the entire article, and while I do think it's obvious war crimes were committed, and the soldiers involved are horrible people, I have to agree with Springfield on the way the article was written..

[Popeman38]

Unless the article is flat out lying to us, there were a hell of a lot of people outside the kill team who knew what was going on and did nothing. And a hell of a lot more who should have known what was going on if they were doing their jobs. That is the real point, at least to me.

I understand your POV. I really do. But consider the soldiers/leadership scenario before stating what did/didn't should/shouldn't happen....

But imagine being in country, boots on the ground. You have insurgents, by the very definition of insurgents, blending into the very fabric of everyday life in Afghanistan. You take your men out on patrol several times a day, and have experienced mass casualties over the course of multiple deployments. You don't trust the locals, even the ones you have dealt with on a daily basis, because IEDs end up going off all around the villages, and ambushes are executed all around the villages, yet the villagers swear there are no Taliban/Al Qaeda anywhere around. Your men are losing arms, losing legs and dying on an almost daily basis. You hear rumors/stories that someone in your unit killed a civilian. What do you do? A cursory check to see if the rumors are true. Soldier swears the civilian threw a grenade. Civilians swear your soldier murdered the civilian. Who do you trust? The guys that you have been protecting and have been protecting you? The guys that have come to be like children/brothers to you? People you would literally die to protect? Or the civilians that you know are harboring/providing material support to insurgents trying to kill you.

These are not simple questions to answer. There is no line between right and wrong like it seems to be portrayed as in the Tailgate. War is hell. Lines are blurred. Legality and morality lines are not nudged, but moved drastically.

I stated that the ones that did the killing committed war crimes, no questions asked. But to pin this on the leadership chain above the PLT level is unfair.

True, the candy incident didn't actually happen. But they did murder children - the very first person they murdered was a 15 year old boy working in a field.

There is a whole lot in the article that either didn't happen, or the writer could not link to, the Kill Team. But all of that gets brushed under the rug to drive clicks and sell rags. This is a sensationalized article about a sensitive subject....