Rollingstone.com: The Kill Team, How U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan murdered innocent civilians and mutilated their corpses – and how their officers failed to stop them.

[No Excuses]

Disagree. See: Gladiatorial Games, Ancient Rome.

That's a really really small fraction of an entire world wide specie. Even then, it was an organized sport and morally ethical or not, allowed for by the ruling government.

You don't find normal people in the common population that like killing others for fun (basically serial killers). But I think if a person was put in a do or die situation, when basic survival instincts kick in, they wouldn't hesitate to kill.

[Sniffler]

Holy ****!!! That was one of the most disturbing articles I've ever read. These guys should be turned over to the families of those murdered. Not only did these pieces of **** commit horrific crimes against those murdered in cold blooded fashion but they also made our country look like those that we are fighting against. An example needs to be made of EVERYONE involved!

[Westbrook36]

I totally disagree. The entirety of human history has proven one thing beyond the shadow of a doubt. When we're fighting, we humans are as savage as any beast, and in a lot of ways worse.

When you train young people to kill and they are put in situations where all of their morality is stripped away (war is, regardless) , it becomes natural that some will become crazy with it, that the lines of civility (a learned behavior) would be blurred by the ancient instinct to kill.

Killing is as natural to humanity as breathing.

I believe these sorts of incidents are isolated, and to our credit, they appall most of us. But they'll happen in the next war, and the war after and the war after until there are no more wars. No army is immune to atrocities, no matter how honorable a people or their cause.

~Bang

Killing is very unnatural to human beings. Do some research on the non-fire rate from WWI, WWII, and Vietnam Vets, even when they felt like their life was in danger. Read On Killing, by Dr. Grossman. Basically, he completely and unequivocly disagrees with everything you said.

[JimboDaMan]

How many actually knew?...once it got outside their squad it did not take long for intervention.

Not the way I read it. Much more than just one squad. And word was out long before any intervention.

But a review of internal Army records and investigative files obtained by Rolling Stone, including dozens of interviews with members of Bravo Company compiled by military investigators, indicates that the dozen infantrymen being portrayed as members of a secretive "kill team" were operating out in the open, in plain view of the rest of the company. Far from being clandestine, as the Pentagon has implied, the murders of civilians were common knowledge among the unit and understood to be illegal by "pretty much the whole platoon," according to one soldier who complained about them. Staged killings were an open topic of conversation, and at least one soldier from another battalion in the 3,800-man Stryker Brigade participated in attacks on unarmed civilians. "The platoon has a reputation," a whistle-blower named Pfc. Justin Stoner told the Army Criminal Investigation Command. "They have had a lot of practice staging killings and getting away with it."

and

The members of Bravo Company began to talk incessantly about killing Afghans as they went about their daily chores

and

A few hours after the shooting, during a routine checkup at the base's clinic, Holmes and Morlock bragged about having killed an insurgent to Alyssa Reilly, a fair-skinned, blond medic who was popular among the men in the unit

.<...then wagered the severed finger in front of her in a poker game>, and

As Morlock bragged about the killing, word of the murder spread back home to families and friends. Soldiers e-mailed photos to their buddies and talked about the killing during visits home.

There's more, of course. Not only was this not a secret, some of the soldiers openly bragged about it to people well outside their own squad.

[Thiebear]

{a fair skinned blond medic who was popular among the men in the unit?}

Why would that even be in the article? are we hinting at homocidal maniacs?

[Bang]

Killing is very unnatural to human beings. Do some research on the non-fire rate from WWI, WWII, and Vietnam Vets, even when they felt like their life was in danger. Read On Killing, by Dr. Grossman. Basically, he completely and unequivocly disagrees with everything you said.

I think when we see that it is a reaction to the learned behaviors of civilization, which by now have been ingrained in us for a few thousand years to the point where they do act as stops to natural predatory and territorial instincts.

I think this is why these incidents are so isolated,, most of us do allow these stops to do their job, we've conditioned ourselves as a species to respect the sanctity of others and of life in general.

But I don't think it's a natural thing. Fear of reprisal, punishment, prison, these stop our instincts very effectively.

I can't speak for all, but I'd bet that a good many of us have had a moment in life where we could have and were prepared to kill out of anger. It may have been a flash of a moment, or it may have been something you actually planned,, who knows. But I think the things that stop us from committing the act are these fears of punishment or other responsibilities in our own lives that prevent us from stepping beyond the confines of the law.

I remember mine,, if it hadn't been for the fact that I had an infant son, I may have acted on my instinct. But reason kicked in and I did nothing beyond think about it for a tense minute until my responsibility to my boy over-rode the emotion and I calmed down and acted appropriately.

But it wasn't due to any respect I had for the target of my anger that made sure I didn't make the wrong decision. It was other factors, reason and responsibility.

I served in the military, but never fought in any war, so i will not even pretend to know the stresses and mental pressures these men are under. I think down inside we're all still instinctually capable of this sort of thing. I'm just glad that most of us do allow reason to rule our actions.

~Bang

[Westbrook36]

Killing at close range is the most intimate act one can ever do. A man can shoot 100x from 100 yards before he could ever stick a knife in another man. A man can shoot 100 Arty rounds from 3k meters before he could ever shoot someone from 100 yards. A man can drop bombs from an airplane from 10k feet in the sky before he could ever shoot an Arty round from 3k meters.

A man in the white house, without the proper knowledge of how atrocious war is could order other men to fight before he'd ever consider the effects to everyone involved.

[jnhay]

I don't think you can just use this as an example of how killing is in our nature. I think it's more an example of how adaptable the human brain is. You train it to do something, and you can end up getting consumed by it. I doubt many people know the real truth in this situation though. Westbrook36 mentioned how many people hesitate to pull the trigger, but after the first time do those same people continue to hesitate if they're still alive? I would guess that practice makes it much less likely.

[twa]

Not the way I read it. Much more than just one squad. And word was out long before any intervention.

There's more, of course. Not only was this not a secret, some of the soldiers openly bragged about it to people well outside their own squad.

What was it ,about six months or less before they faced charges????....in the middle of a war tracking down scuttlebutt takes a little time,as does separating trash talk from truth .

Killing goes on daily,which is not to be confused with what this trash did.

[Bang]

Killing at close range is the most intimate act one can ever do. A man can shoot 100x from 100 yards before he could ever stick a knife in another man. A man can shoot 100 Arty rounds from 3k meters before he could ever shoot someone from 100 yards. A man can drop bombs from an airplane from 10k feet in the sky before he could ever shoot an Arty round from 3k meters.

A man in the white house, without the proper knowledge of how atrocious war is could order other men to fight before he'd ever consider the effects to everyone involved.

This is true.

There's been good points made as to whether it is natural to us or not. This thread has my mind turning.. I like it.

Good stuff from everyone.

~Bang

[Thiebear]

Killing is very unnatural to human beings. Do some research on the non-fire rate from WWI, WWII, and Vietnam Vets, even when they felt like their life was in danger. Read On Killing, by Dr. Grossman. Basically, he completely and unequivocly disagrees with everything you said.

The Army created a video game to get soldiers to kill at a much higer rate (it worked).

Doom > Cod Black Ops would means regular citizens are increasing in abilities also. At least with a Famas and warlord pro with scavenger.

[twa]

I think it is natural to some and subscribe to the wolves,sheep and sheepdog divisions

http://mwkworks.com/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

[21cents]

Guys, are these guys being punished or is the government doing anything to take action?

[greenspandan]

Given the average readership of Rolling Stone it will do nothing more than strengthen the already entrenched anti-military view of it's readership. It will further the perception that the entire military is like these idiots. It makes those in a tactical environment have to work that much harder to reassure the ANSF and the locals they work with that they aren't like that. Really piss poor timing...but intentionally done by not only Rolling Stone but Der Spiegel in when they released this stuff. And lets not mention the illegally acquired photos and video that are supposed to be looked up as evidence in an ongoing series of murder trials...so much for journalistic integrity there...

this post is wrong on a LOT of levels, some of which have already been touched on, so i won't rehash.

i would like to point out, though, that even ONE instance of this kind of inhuman barbarism is not acceptable. allowing it to happen even once is a major failure on the part of our military and a serious blow to our national security. these guys just made the best terrorist recruitment pitch since abu ghraib. and by "these guys" i absolutely do NOT mean the journalists. this is arguably the worst conceivable type of screw up possible, in regards to long-term peace and security.

[Predicto]

Like others in this thread, I am horrified by these acts, but I am even more horrified by the fact that so many people appeared to know or suspect that this was going on, and turned a blind eye to it. That is the real problem I see. A military culture that does not police itself. Investigators that do not investigate. Open rumors that are not follwed up upon. Officers and Sergeants that accept implausible stories without question, allow trophy photos to be taken, fingers to be cut off over and over.

That is what scares me here.

---------- Post added March-29th-2011 at 11:05 AM ----------

Guys, are these guys being punished or is the government doing anything to take action?

According to the article, the guys who actually did the killing are being prosecuted, but the numerous officers and men who knew about it and ignored it as it was going on are not, and some are geting promoted.

[Tweedr01]

Killing is very unnatural to human beings. Do some research on the non-fire rate from WWI, WWII, and Vietnam Vets, even when they felt like their life was in danger. Read On Killing, by Dr. Grossman. Basically, he completely and unequivocly disagrees with everything you said.

I hate when people give you a book to read, buncha insincere pieces of...oh sorry, wrong thread

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I hate when people give you a book to read, buncha insincere pieces of...oh sorry, wrong thread

Made me laugh.

[twa]

Like others in this thread, I am horrified by these acts, but I am even more horrified by the fact that so many people appeared to know or suspect that this was going on, and turned a blind eye to it. That is the real problem I see. A military culture that does not police itself. Investigators that do not investigate. Open rumors that are not follwed up upon. Officers and Sergeants that accept implausible stories without question, allow trophy photos to be taken, fingers to be cut off over and over.

That is what scares me here..

Pray tell who is charging them then?

A staff Sargent being directly involved creates a buffer gums up the checks,as does the far flung nature of the deployments.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/calling-bull****-on-rolling-stone.htm

Seldom do I waste time with rebutting articles, and especially not from publications like Rolling Stone. Today, numerous people sent links to the latest Rolling Stone tripe. The story is titled “THE KILL TEAM, THE FULL STORY.” It should be titled: “BULL****, from Rolling Stone.”

The story—not really an “article”—covers Soldiers from 5/2 Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT) in Afghanistan. A handful of Soldiers were accused of murder. It does in fact appear that a tiny group of rogues committed premeditated murder. I was embedded with the 5/2 SBCT and was afforded incredible access to the brigade by the Commander, Colonel Harry Tunnell, and the brigade Command Sergeant Major, Robb Prosser. I know Robb from Iraq. Colonel Tunnell had been shot in Iraq.

The brigade gave me open access. I could go anywhere, anytime, so long as I could find a ride, which never was a problem beyond normal combat problems. If they had something to hide, it was limited and I didn’t find it. I was not with the Soldiers accused of murder and had no knowledge of this. It is important to note that the murder allegations were not discovered by media vigilance, but by, for instance, at least one Soldier in that tiny unit who was appalled by the behavior. A brigade is a big place with thousands of Soldiers, and in Afghanistan they were spread thinly across several provinces because we decided to wage war with too few troops. Those Soldiers accused of being involved in (or who should have been knowledgeable of) the murders could fit into a minivan. You would need ten 747s for the rest of the Brigade who did their duty. I was with many other Soldiers from 5/2 SBCT. My overall impression was very positive. After scratching my memory for negative impressions from 5/2 Soldiers, I can’t think of any, actually, other than the tiny Kill Team who, to my knowledge, I never set eyes upon.

The online edition of the Rolling Stone story contains a section with a video called “Motorcycle Kill,” which includes our Soldiers gunning down Taliban who were speeding on a motorcycle toward our guys. These Soldiers were also with 5/2 SBCT, far away from the “Kill Team” later accused of the murders. Rolling Stone commits a literary “crime” by deceptively entwining this normal combat video with the Kill Team story. The Taliban on the motorcycle were killed during an intense operation in the Arghandab near Kandahar City. People who have been to the Arghandab realize the extreme danger there. The Soviets got beaten horribly in the Arghandab, despite throwing everything including the Soviet kitchen sink into the battle that lasted over a month. Others fared little better. To my knowledge, 5/2 and supporting units were the first ever to take Arghandab, and these two dead Taliban were part of that process.

[Stadium-Armory]

I have a son, and if something like that happened to him, I would spend the rest of my life seeking brutal revenge.

War is hell.

[Predicto]

Pray tell who is charging them then?

Yes, they are investigating now. After the :pooh: hit the fan.

I know you like to be the conservative contrarian, but did you even read the same article I did?

It was an unlikely story: a lone Taliban fighter, armed with only a grenade, attempting to ambush a platoon in broad daylight, let alone in an area that offered no cover or concealment. Even the top officer on the scene, Capt. Patrick Mitchell, thought there was something strange about Morlock's story. "I just thought it was weird that someone would come up and throw a grenade at us," Mitchell later told investigators.

But Mitchell did not order his men to render aid to Mudin, whom he believed might still be alive, and possibly a threat. Instead, he ordered Staff Sgt. Kris Sprague to "make sure" the boy was dead. Sprague raised his rifle and fired twice....

But a review of internal Army records and investigative files obtained by Rolling Stone, including dozens of interviews with members of Bravo Company compiled by military investigators, indicates that the dozen infantrymen being portrayed as members of a secretive "kill team" were operating out in the open, in plain view of the rest of the company. Far from being clandestine, as the Pentagon has implied, the murders of civilians were common knowledge among the unit and understood to be illegal by "pretty much the whole platoon," according to one soldier who complained about them. Staged killings were an open topic of conversation, and at least one soldier from another battalion in the 3,800-man Stryker Brigade participated in attacks on unarmed civilians. "The platoon has a reputation," a whistle-blower named Pfc. Justin Stoner told the Army Criminal Investigation Command. "They have had a lot of practice staging killings and getting away with it....

From the start, the questionable nature of the killings was on the radar of senior Army leadership. Within days of the first murder, Rolling Stone has learned, Mudin's uncle descended on the gates of FOB Ramrod, along with 20 villagers from La Mohammad Kalay, to demand an investigation. "They were sitting at our front door," recalls Lt. Col. David Abrahams, the battalion's second in command. During a four-hour meeting with Mudin's uncle, Abrahams was informed that several children in the village had seen Mudin killed by soldiers from 3rd Platoon. The battalion chief ordered the soldiers to be reinterviewed, but Abrahams found "no inconsistencies in their story," and the matter was dropped. "It was cut and dry to us at the time," Abrahams recalls.

Other officers were also in a position to question the murders. Neither 3rd Platoon's commander, Capt. Matthew Quiggle, nor 1st Lt. Roman Ligsay has been held accountable for their unit's actions, despite their repeated failure to report killings that they had ample reason to regard as suspicious. In fact, supervising the murderous platoon, or even having knowledge of the crimes, seems to have been no impediment to career advancement. Ligsay has actually been promoted to captain, and a sergeant who joined the platoon in April became a team leader even though he "found out about the murders from the beginning," according to a soldier who cooperated with the Army investigation. Indeed, it would have been hard not to know about the murders, given that the soldiers of 3rd Platoon took scores of photographs chronicling their kills and their time in Afghanistan.

In many of the photos it is unclear whether the bodies are civilians or Taliban, and it is possible that the unidentified deaths involved no illegal acts by U.S. soldiers. But it is a violation of Army standards to take such photos of the dead, let alone share them with others. Among the soldiers, the collection was treated like a war memento. It was passed from man to man on thumb drives and hard drives, the gruesome images of corpses and war atrocities filed alongside clips of TV shows, UFC fights and films such as Iron Man 2. One soldier kept a complete set, which he made available to anyone who asked...

As Morlock bragged about the killing, word of the murder spread back home to families and friends. Soldiers e-mailed photos to their buddies and talked about the killing during visits home. On February 14th, three months before the Army launched its investigation, Spc. Adam Winfield sent a Facebook message to his father, Chris, back in Cape Coral, Florida. A skinny, bookish 21-year-old, Winfield was pissed off at being disciplined by Gibbs. "There are people in my platoon that have gotten away with murder," he told his father. "Everyone pretty much knows it was staged. . . . They all don't care." Winfield added that the victim was "some innocent guy about my age, just farming."

During Facebook chats, Winfield continued to keep his father in the loop. "Adam told me that he heard the group was planning on another murder involving an innocent Afghanistan man," Chris Winfield, himself a veteran, later told investigators. "They were going to kill him and drop an AK-47 on him to make it look like he was the bad guy." Alarmed, the elder Winfield called the command center at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, and told the sergeant on duty what was going on. But according to Winfield, the sergeant simply shrugged it off, telling him that "stuff like that happens" and that "it would be sorted out when Adam got home." Tragically, commanders at the base did nothing to follow up on the report....

Staff Sgt. Sprague was one of the first to respond. Gibbs claimed that he had turned a corner and spotted the man, who had fired at him with the AK-47, only to have the rifle jam. But when Sprague picked up the Kalashnikov, it seemed to be in perfect operating condition. A short time later, as he walked down a dusty alley in the village, Sprague himself came under attack from small-arms fire. He responded instinctively by squeezing the trigger on the AK-47 – and the gun fired "with no problems at all."

Sprague reported the discrepancy to Lt. Ligsay. When the body was identified, relatives also reported that Agha was a deeply religious man who would never have taken up arms. He "did not know how to use an AK-47," they told Ligsay. Once again, however, no action was taken, nor was Gibbs disciplined....

This time, though, the villagers refused to be placated. The dead man, it turned out, was a peaceful cleric named Mullah Allah Dad. Two days later, the murder provoked an uproar at a districtwide council attended by Capt. Quiggle, the unit's commanding officer. The district leader launched into a blistering attack of the platoon. "He pretty much told us that we planted the grenade in order to shoot the guy," recalled 1st Lt. Stefan Moye, who escorted Quiggle to the meeting.

But the next day, instead of launching an inquiry into the platoon's behavior, Quiggle dispatched Moye to the scene of the shooting to do damage control. With Gibbs hovering nearby, the lieutenant found two elderly villagers who claimed to have seen Mullah Allah Dad with a grenade. Relieved, Moye urged them to spread the word. "This is the type of stuff that the Taliban likes to use against us and try to recruit people to fight against us," he said.

His mission accomplished, Moye left the village feeling that the platoon could return to its usual rhythms. "After that," he said, "everything was normal." ...

So far, though, no officers or senior officials have been charged in either the murders or the cover-up.

How can you read that and defend and deflect it?

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/calling-bull****-on-rolling-stone.htm

Wow, a military blogger is offended by a story exposing wrongdoing by the military and in particular, one of his buddies. Say it isn't so. That never happens!

The fact that this blogger didn't know what was going on doesn't mean squat, and of course, he is completely missing the point, just like you are.

No one is saying that all of our soldiers are psychopaths. We are saying that something is wrong when there are this many open clues and no one does squat except cover their own azzes.

[Prosperity]

you know I get more out of this story than "these guys suck"

yes, they do... BUT, something that gets lost in our military discussions is that EVEN IF we can get through a war with few casualties on our end, we still have to deal with the psychological damage done to a person who we've trained to kill, and who actually does it. I would be very surprised if the war setting didn't exacerbate some pre-existing anti-social behavior. Now, even if people think killing innocent Afghans is not a big deal, or even if you think that those people weren't innocent.... one very real problem will be what we have to do with all these soldiers when they come back to the US.

[Predicto]

you know I get more out of this story than "these guys suck"

yes, they do... BUT, something that gets lost in our military discussions is that EVEN IF we can get through a war with few casualties on our end, we still have to deal with the psychological damage done to a person who we've trained to kill, and who actually does it. I would be very surprised if the war setting didn't exacerbate some pre-existing anti-social behavior. Now, even if people think killing innocent Afghans is not a big deal, or even if you think that those people weren't innocent.... one very real problem will be what we have to do with all these soldiers when they come back to the US.

Don't worry. The Tenderloin can absorb thousands more drug addled abandoned vets.

[Prosperity]

Don't worry. The Tenderloin can absorb thousands more drug addled abandoned vets.

We regret to inform you that all incoming drug addled vets will be directed outbound towards Castro.

All the sidewalks here are taken.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

This story was out there in the press way before Der Spiegel or RS started making waves about it. The BBC was talking about it in December, Army Times did a long piece in about the problems within 5/2 back in (I think) January of last year while the Brigade was still there. This isn't muck raking...this isn't investigative journalism...it's agenda driven "reporting" that is as much propaganda for the terrorists as it is for the anti-war folks that populate our civilian press ranks. The 5/2 guys have gift wrapped them a nice big hunk of red meat to sink their teeth into right as we start looking at drawing troops down. It's irresponsible.

[Madison Redskin]

This story was out there in the press way before Der Spiegel or RS started making waves about it. The BBC was talking about it in December, Army Times did a long piece in about the problems within 5/2 back in (I think) January of last year while the Brigade was still there. This isn't muck raking...this isn't investigative journalism...it's agenda driven "reporting" that is as much propaganda for the terrorists as it is for the anti-war folks that populate our civilian press ranks. The 5/2 guys have gift wrapped them a nice big hunk of red meat to sink their teeth into right as we start looking at drawing troops down. It's irresponsible.

In short, you would prefer that the news outlets refrain from reporting this clearly newsworthy story because it sheds the troops in an unfavorable light. If so, I think you should drop your complaint about agenda driven reporting because it's clear you WANT news organizations to have an agenda in reporting (i.e., one that is identical to yours).

News organizations should report newsworthy stories and this is one of them. Are you going to claim otherwise? If so, I suppose they should stop reporting Taliban and Al Qaeda atrocities too.