Rollingstone.com: The Kill Team, How U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan murdered innocent civilians and mutilated their corpses – and how their officers failed to stop them.

[Madison Redskin]

Basically we train kids to be killers, turn them into heavily armed ruthless murderers.

And when some inevitably go off the deep end, we act all shocked.

It's a natural by product of having soldiers.

~Bang

I think 99% of the men and women in the military wouldn't think of doing something like this, notwithstanding the fact that all of them went through essentially the same training as these clowns and many of them saw combat. And while it's not particularly surprising that one of our soldiers killed civilians, it's surprising that several of them got together, openly joked about murdering civilians, actually went and murdered a few and mutilated their corpses.

[Koolblue13]

This has happened and will happen in every single war we have ever been in.

War is Hell is not an understatement.

[thebluefood]

Given the average readership of Rolling Stone it will do nothing more than strengthen the already entrenched anti-military view of it's readership. It will further the perception that the entire military is like these idiots. It makes those in a tactical environment have to work that much harder to reassure the ANSF and the locals they work with that they aren't like that. Really piss poor timing...but intentionally done by not only Rolling Stone but Der Spiegel in when they released this stuff. And lets not mention the illegally acquired photos and video that are supposed to be looked up as evidence in an ongoing series of murder trials...so much for journalistic integrity there...

This is pretty damn news worthy, I'd say. These are probably war crimes and they need to be addressed. There's no way you can defend this kind of thing. I love this country, too, but you cannot defend this.

[JimboDaMan]

I have to somewhat disagree. There is nothing natural about this. Nothing. I'm sure we "train kids to be killers" in the appropriate scenarios.

---------- Post added March-29th-2011 at 09:20 AM ----------

I don't know how this will be received by some of you, but I'd like to see everyone who is found guilty of these atrocities either locked up or put to death (whatever the letter-of-the-law punishment is). This is gross and despicable.

I don't know that "natural" is the right word. But how about "inevitable", "to be expected"?

Locke them up? You bet. Put to death? I dunno about that. Some of these guys are very young. We ask so much of them, put them in a completely alien environment governed by rules completely foreign to anything they've experienced. Not at all surprising that some get the feeling that there are no rules, and some get the feeling that they make up the rules. I can't agree with putting them to death, at least the younger ones. More important to me that we extend punishment to the command that knew or should have known what was going on and didn't stop it. The pervasive concept that the locals are all "savages" needs to be eliminated.

[DRSmith]

Sorry but when you had a large segment of the population that thought it was okay and justified to torture people, to basically reason that the lives of others were worth less than the own and there fore any held values on life could be thrown out the window then it you can understand how these things happen.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I don't know that "natural" is the right word. But how about "inevitable", "to be expected"?

I don't accept that. I might be naive or ignorant, but I don't think it's too much to ask to have soldiers who don't plot to murder harmless children. I don't believe these ruthless acts should be considered inevitable or expected. If so, then we need to refine the process with which we select people to serve our country...maybe there should be stricter qualifications.

Locke them up? You bet. Put to death? I dunno about that. Some of these guys are very young. We ask so much of them, put them in a completely alien environment governed by rules completely foreign to anything they've experienced. Not at all surprising that some get the feeling that there are no rules, and some get the feeling that they make up the rules. I can't agree with putting them to death, at least the younger ones. More important to me that we extend punishment to the command that knew or should have known what was going on and didn't stop it. The pervasive concept that the locals are all "savages" needs to be eliminated.

Well, like I said, if locking them up is considered par for the course, I'm fine with that. I don't think we need to do anything outside of the normal laws or rules that we employ. I'm not well-versed in how war crimes (or whatever you'd classify these as) are handled.

[Madison Redskin]

Sorry but when you had a large segment of the population that thought it was okay and justified to torture people, to basically reason that the lives of others were worth less than the own and there fore any held values on life could be thrown out the window then it you can understand how these things happen.

I think it's a pretty tough to argue that, because some members of the public accepted the water-boarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammed (i.e., the guy who masterminded 9/11) and other terrorists, these soldiers went and committed this atrocity. I can certainly make the distinction between abusing terrorists and intentionally killing and mutilating unarmed civilians, and suspect the soldiers could as well.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

It makes those in a tactical environment have to work that much harder to reassure the ANSF and the locals they work with that they aren't like that. Really piss poor timing...but intentionally done by not only Rolling Stone but Der Spiegel in when they released this stuff. And lets not mention the illegally acquired photos and video that are supposed to be looked up as evidence in an ongoing series of murder trials...so much for journalistic integrity there...

Wow. The part I underlined really irked me. So, members of our armed forces killed innocent people (not in combat by accident mind you, but in a planned setting) and we should blame the media for making things tough on our armed forces? Sorry, but they made their bed and now they have to deal with consequences. I'm sure that more than 99% of the people defending our country are great, ethical people and fantastic soldiers. But collectively, it is now their job to repair their reputations. If these types of things are happening where our men and women are deployed, the locals have every right to be concerned.

Hell, you have teenagers in Fairfax County, VA who are always worried about cops on power trips. Imagine a police officer pulling you over, coming up to your car, and shooting you point blank. Would you blame the fallout of that story on Fox 5 or the police department?

---------- Post added March-29th-2011 at 09:59 AM ----------

I think it's a pretty tough to argue that, because some members of the public accepted the water-boarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammed (i.e., the guy who masterminded 9/11) and other terrorists, these soldiers went and committed this atrocity. I can certainly make the distinction between abusing terrorists and intentionally killing and mutilating unarmed civilians, and suspect the soldiers could as well.

Exactly. And, if some soldiers cannot, then our armed forces needs to take accountability for either employing unqualified people or not properly training them. Period. You can't have it both ways...either the soldiers are to blame for making a conscious decision to kill an innocent person or the system is to blame for not selecting/training our soldiers properly. In no way should this be considered the cost of going to war.

[DRSmith]

I think it's a pretty tough to argue that the public's acceptance of the water boarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammed (i.e., the guy who masterminded 9/11) and other terrorists resulted in this atrocity. I can certainly make the distinction between abusing terrorists and intentionally killing and mutilating unarmed civilians, and suspect you can as well.

No because it is an overall mindset

When a culture becomes more and more accepting of escalating levels of violence to solve their issues then what does one expect.

We as societey diminish life all the time and at times place a highe value on it when it suits our own self interests

People are constantly seeing images of violence as a means to solve an issue.

Look at things with Libya you have people saying that the rebels should be armed, that is great but what happens when they decide to repay violence for violence to Ghaddifi supporters?

The next problem is that certain jobs can really bring out the worst in people, when people have authority over others they can start to see them as less than people, that is one of the reason I did not take a job as a prison guard when I had the chance years ago.

[Thiebear]

Basically we train kids to be killers, turn them into heavily armed ruthless murderers.

And when some inevitably go off the deep end, we act all shocked.

It's a natural by product of having soldiers.

~Bang

I'm Close to this^

you train a million people to be killers.

999,000 of them are perfect, 1000 are not.

Countries that do nothing can never get in trouble but they are not in the position to help either

Countries that have been all over the world for 20 consecutive years and countless tours?

Do Great and Bad things.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

DR, trying to understand why something happens is still completely separate from accepting that it can happen. I don't doubt that there are many factors at play. However, under no circumstances should anything in that article be considered "expected" or the cost of going to war. What I read in that article was sickening...disgusting. Normal human beings with normal supervision don't think that way. Ever.

[DRSmith]

DR, trying to understand why something happens is still completely separate from accepting that it can happen. I don't doubt that there are many factors at play. However, under no circumstances should anything in that article be considered "expected" or the cost of going to war. What I read in that article was sickening...disgusting. Normal human beings with normal supervision don't think that way. Ever.

But stories like this are nothing new, I remember reading of things that happened during the crusades that would turn the stomach of an average person and the question was asked how could those who were going out with the job to defend do what they did in some cases.

Problem is people do not want to accept what can happen, we see that disconnect with violence inside the country, no one wants to say entertainment, rhetoric and a ready access to weapons plays a part.

I just read an articles yesterday about a billionaire in Florida who was buying children for sex and only served 13 months and originally the government did not want to do anything, normal is plummenting rapidly

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I see your point. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd be disappointed if we only treat the symptom in this case. Obviously, I'd like the guilty parties to be punished, but I'd also hope that steps would be taken to attempt to rectify this type of thing happening again. If they need to revise their recruiting or enlisting process, work to employ more higher-ranking soldiers to oversee the lower-ranking guys, or spend more time training these people...it needs to be done.

[Busch1724]

Read the daily news and you will find plenty outside the military as well.

It ain't the training,it's the human element.

Best statement here in this thread. Americans should be upset because perception is reality and this is reality about our country around many parts of the world.

[Skin'Em84]

No because it is an overall mindset

When a culture becomes more and more accepting of escalating levels of violence to solve their issues then what does one expect.

We as societey diminish life all the time and at times place a highe value on it when it suits our own self interests

People are constantly seeing images of violence as a means to solve an issue.

Look at things with Libya you have people saying that the rebels should be armed, that is great but what happens when they decide to repay violence for violence to Ghaddifi supporters?

The next problem is that certain jobs can really bring out the worst in people, when people have authority over others they can start to see them as less than people, that is one of the reason I did not take a job as a prison guard when I had the chance years ago.

Not to derail the thread, but using the rebels in Libya as using violence to solve an issue is a bit of a stretch IMO.

They had relatively (being the key word) peaceful protests....then Ghadhafi started shooting people.

And continued shooting people...

This isn't the Civil Rights movement over there...and regardless of how the violence escalated, it's there now, and you cant have a bunch of unarmed civilians running around protesting while getting fired at with machine guns.

That being said, you are right with the bolded sentence..just pointing out a flaw to your argument.

[twa]

normal is plummenting rapidly

I don't think it is,more a matter of acts being out in the open more....and more people

[JimboDaMan]

Read the daily news and you will find plenty outside the military as well.

It ain't the training,it's the human element.

In how many of those other situations are the perpetrators free to talk and joke openly about their atrocities without fear of reprisal? I can only think of closed societies, like gangs, where everybody is a participant in the crimes. That's not the case here. It's disturbing how many people did not commit these acts, many no doubt disapproving of them, yet were okay with letting them continue.

[Burgold]

But stories like this are nothing new, I remember reading of things that happened during the crusades that would turn the stomach of an average person and the question was asked how could those who were going out with the job to defend do what they did in some cases.

We want war to be ugly, terrible, horrific. I worry about the antiseptic nature of war these days where most of the devestation happening from miles above or miles away as we shoot missiles or drop bombs. War needs to be traumatic and insane enough that we do everything in our power to avoid it. That said, when you find monsters like these soldiers you have to expose them, deal with them, and try to make sure it's understood that this can never be accepted or tolerated.

Sometimes, in the U.S. we get this vision of war as a clean and noble thing. That's because we've been lucky enough to be distant from war and not feel it first hand. Even our casualities in Iraq and Afghanistan have been relatively light though certainly not to friends and parents (and it shouldn't be to us as a nation either), but many can write off a few thousand deaths as the normal cost of war without blinking.

I think that apathy or tolerance is dangerous too. We should be repulsed by it and detest it. When we get to events like this it adds even another level. This should be unacceptible even in war. Attrocity will always be a part of war, but it should be prosecuted nontheless.

[twa]

In how many of those other situations are the perpetrators free to talk and joke openly about their atrocities without fear of reprisal? I can only think of closed societies, like gangs, where everybody is a participant in the crimes. That's not the case here. It's disturbing how many people did not commit these acts, many no doubt disapproving of them, yet were okay with letting them continue.

How many actually knew?...once it got outside their squad it did not take long for intervention.

They have been in the hands of military justice,which is much tougher than civilian.

There will be plenty of reprisal if found guilty

[RansomthePasserby]

Even if 95% of our military men and women are brave and honorable, it just takes a few ****s to make Iraqis and Afghans hate Americans.

Yeah. I really think 99% of our military are honorable men and women. Even in the article, there's evidence for that. I got the impression the Afghan civilians trusted the soldiers, and were friendly and welcoming toward them, including the would be victims. This is probably because the VAST majority of their interaction with soldiers has been positive.

[Bang]

I have to somewhat disagree. There is nothing natural about this. Nothing. I'm sure we "train kids to be killers" in the appropriate scenarios.

---------- Post added March-29th-2011 at 09:20 AM ----------

I don't know how this will be received by some of you, but I'd like to see everyone who is found guilty of these atrocities either locked up or put to death (whatever the letter-of-the-law punishment is). This is gross and despicable.

I totally disagree. The entirety of human history has proven one thing beyond the shadow of a doubt. When we're fighting, we humans are as savage as any beast, and in a lot of ways worse.

When you train young people to kill and they are put in situations where all of their morality is stripped away (war is, regardless) , it becomes natural that some will become crazy with it, that the lines of civility (a learned behavior) would be blurred by the ancient instinct to kill.

Killing is as natural to humanity as breathing.

I believe these sorts of incidents are isolated, and to our credit, they appall most of us. But they'll happen in the next war, and the war after and the war after until there are no more wars. No army is immune to atrocities, no matter how honorable a people or their cause.

~Bang

[No Excuses]

I think killing for survival is ancient to humanity, not killing for pleasure.

If I had to guess, some of these guys were like this before they joined the army.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I totally disagree. The entirety of human history has proven one thing beyond the shadow of a doubt. When we're fighting, we humans are as savage as any beast, and in a lot of ways worse.

When you train young people to kill, it becomes natural that some will become crazy with it, that the lines of civility (a learned behavior) would be blurred by the ancient instinct to kill.

Killing is as natural to humanity as breathing.

I believe these sorts of incidents are isolated, and to our credit, they appall most of us. But they'll happen in the next war, and the war after and the war after until there are no more wars.

~Bang

I also believe they are very, very isolated. I don't want that to go unsaid...I believe that 99.9% of our soldiers are brave and honorable people. But, doesn't that disprove that our human nature/instinct is to kill innocent people? Believe me, in the heat of a fight or in battle, I can understand mistakes being made and lines being crossed. I just can't get on board with it being "par for the course" for some soldiers to plot the murder of the next innocent farmer they come across.

Edit: And by "on board" I'm not implying that you're condoning it...just that it doesn't shock you. I think it should shock us and we should strive to take steps to eliminate it.

[Bang]

I'm Close to this^

you train a million people to be killers.

999,000 of them are perfect, 1000 are not.

Countries that do nothing can never get in trouble but they are not in the position to help either

Countries that have been all over the world for 20 consecutive years and countless tours?

Do Great and Bad things.

This is an excellent way to put what I was saying. Totally agree.

These soldiers should be punished to the fullest extent, but we should not be surprised when this happens.

~Bang

---------- Post added March-29th-2011 at 03:39 PM ----------

I also believe they are very, very isolated. I don't want that to go unsaid...I believe that 99.9% of our soldiers are brave and honorable people. But, doesn't that disprove that our human nature/instinct is to kill innocent people? Believe me, in the heat of a fight or in battle, I can understand mistakes being made and lines being crossed. I just can't get on board with it being "par for the course" for some soldiers to plot the murder of the next innocent farmer they come across.

Edit: And by "on board" I'm not implying that you're condoning it...just that it doesn't shock you. I think it should shock us and we should strive to take steps to eliminate it.

I agree, I also believe these are highly isolated incidents. The overwhelming majority of our forces are not going to do this beyond the scope of their mission. Nothing but respect for our military.

Like I said, punish these soldiers. Be aghast and outraged over their actions. But it is to be expected.

Mai Lai happens in every conflict.

~Bang

[RansomthePasserby]

I think killing for survival is ancient to humanity, not killing for pleasure.

Disagree. See: Gladiatorial Games, Ancient Rome.