Sports teams that scared the piss out of White America

[Bang]

You just said you grew up in racially mixed neighborhoods inside the Beltway. I'm assuming your experience is very different from' date=' like, every white person in suburban Chicago.

I did not grow up in DC. I grew up in a majority white small towns in WV and Pennsylvania. Everything posted in these articles rings 100 percent true for me.

Do you really think that junior high students in, say, Midland Texas viewed the Hoyas the same way you did?[/quote']

I don't really care if they did.

How do you explain that the NCAA tournament became the largest sporting event in America, and it began it's rise when Georgetown was at the height of their power?

why did all these racially frightened people start tuning into it in MASSIVE numbers? Why is it now the largest revenue generating event on television? (Bigger than the Super Bowl by FAR)

~Bang

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Aparently you don't know much about John Thompson then.

The man recruited ONLY black players, and he had no bones about saying so. In his time he never ever started a single white player. Ever. I'm guessing in 25 or so years he never found one good enough? It's because he never bothered to look for any. He had and still has a tunnel vision as to who he wanted playing for him. (He reasoned it out by saying that he was trying to give a fair shake to inner city kids, where he did a lot of his recruiting. And to be fair to him, he did insist they got their education, and didn't just pass them thru because they could shoot the jumper.)

Don't take it from me or any steel workers, you can look at the man's actions and listen to his words and you can use those to see who he is.

Seems to me you think everyone is wrong about that because you've only heard it from white people. This could lead one to believe that you've got some real racial issues of your own to work out. The only reason you think they're wrong is.... well you said. They're white.

Sports brings people together like nothing else in this country, and perhaps the world. But again, you have to LET it.

~Bang

I think Thompson's attitude was simply "**** You, NCAA." Colleges spent the previous 60 years either not recruiting black players or having a quota system in place for black players. (When SEC schools started recruiting black players in the 60s and 70s, they always recruited an even number for roommate purposes).

JT - rightly or wrongly - decided that he was going to try to single-handidly make up for a century's worth of sins. John Thompson using his 3 or 4 scholarships to give black kids an entry to Georgetown is not something I find terribly offensive. Particularly since his players were really really good and typically graduated.

[Monte51Coleman]

So what would you call a coach that recruited only white players?

The next McDonald's assistant manager.

[Capt Rich Fla]

Why do you think they call him Bang?

Maybe that is also why he has that home computer business thing he does. grrrrr

[Heisenberg]

the next mcdonald's assistant manager.

lmao

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't really care if they did.

How do you explain that the NCAA tournament became the largest sporting event in America, and it began it's rise when Georgetown was at the height of their power?

why did all these racially frightened people start tuning into it in MASSIVE numbers? Why is it now the largest revenue generating event on television? (Bigger than the Super Bowl by FAR)

~Bang

Because the Big East and ESPN knew how to turn Thompson's supposed villiany into big bucks.

The NBA became "too black" in the 1970s and almost died. The 1981 Finals were shown on tape delay for God's sake. The NCAA was not viewed as "too black" by white viewers in the early 80s; Georgetown was viewed that way. The NCAA gave something for everyone. If you wanted high-flying video game type teams, you had the Houston Cougars. If you wanted fundamental basketball with a likable coach, you had Dean Smith. If you wanted fundamental basketball with an evil coach, you had Bob Knight. If you were the kind of person (like me) who rooted for the bad guy in the movies, you had John Thompson. Everyone had an opinion on John Thompson. You either watched because you really wanted him to win or you really really wanted him to lose.

It's an easy concept to grasp.

My guess is that 90 percent of Redskins fans would alter their schedule to watch the Cowboys in the playoffs in order to watch the team they late lose.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So what would you call a coach that recruited only white players?

Bill Carmody.

PS No one is really adding to the list.

[Dan T.]

The next McDonald's assistant manager.

:rotflmao:

Post of The Week!

[StillUnknown]

The next McDonald's assistant manager.

quoting this simply because it deserves it

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

The Detroit Pistons most violent and scary player was the big white Bill Lambier, who would think nothing of elbowing anyone's teeth down their throat.

This, the original Bad Boys were who they were because of Bill Lambier. They need to be taken off your list.

[Thiebear]

I seriously heard this from every white steelworker I knew in 1983. And in 1983' date=' I only knew white steelworkers.

[/quote']

Wait? 1983 you were how old (9) having intellectual conversations about the coach of Georgetown?

My one daughter is 7 and the other is 11... I don't see it based on current ramblings.

How did you then 26yrs later drop to saying polio for white douchebags.

whitey, darkie and cuban douchebags?

You have digressed over time with your racism showing like symbol of honor.

[Bang]

I think Thompson's attitude was simply "**** You' date=' NCAA." Colleges spent the previous 60 years either not recruiting black players or having a quota system in place for black players. (When SEC schools started recruiting black players in the 60s and 70s, they always recruited an even number for roommate purposes).

JT - rightly or wrongly - decided that he was going to try to single-handidly make up for a century's worth of sins. John Thompson using his 3 or 4 scholarships to give black kids an entry to Georgetown is not something I find terribly offensive. Particularly since his players were really really good and typically graduated.[/quote']

I agree. That is why he did it. However, by definition, that is racist behavior.

I never found it offensive either, and as a Villanova fan, I've always hated Georgetown, but not because of Thompson or the racial makeup of his players.. but because they're conference rivals.

The next McDonald's assistant manager.

:hysterical:

Because the Big East and ESPN knew how to turn Thompson's supposed villiany into big bucks.

The NBA became "too black" in the 1970s and almost died. The 1981 Finals were shown on tape delay for God's sake. The NCAA was not viewed as "too black" by white viewers in the early 80s; Georgetown was viewed that way. The NCAA gave something for everyone. If you wanted high-flying video game type teams' date=' you had the Houston Cougars. If you wanted fundamental basketball with a likable coach, you had Dean Smith. If you wanted fundamental basketball with an evil coach, you had Bob Knight. If you were the kind of person (like me) who rooted for the bad guy in the movies, you had John Thompson. Everyone had an opinion on John Thompson. You either watched because you really wanted him to win or you really really wanted him to lose.

It's an easy concept to grasp.

My guess is that 90 percent of Redskins fans would alter their schedule to watch the Cowboys in the playoffs in order to watch the team they late lose.[/quote']

True, but that hatred is not born of racism. As you say, we would watch the Cowboys and hope they lose because they're rivals. Thompson was not a villain because of his players race, it was because of their attitude. They as a team were VERY physical, and intimidating. But not because they were black, or because they were inner city kids,, it was because that was how he coached them to play. Hard, physical and strong. They weren't finesse by any stretch.

And typically, they beat the hell out of everyone.

So, much like the Raiders, they earned a bad boy image, and that is why they were "feared". Everyone hates a winner except their fans. The more a team becomes dominant, the more the hatred of them grows outside of their fan base. And they were definitely dominant.

When NCAA ball really started to get a lot of national notice as a big time TV sport was when Magic Johnson went against Larry Bird in the NCAA title game. But as I recall, no one matched it up as anything other than the best two players to come along in decades facing off. It wasn't presented as a black man vs a white man in any respected journal.

(Now, remember i say this as far as I can recall. There may indeed have been some, but again, I don't make excuses for the ignorant. I say, and continue to say sports is a healer, not a divider.) Magic and Bird injected that same excitement back into the NBA as well, and again, as far as I can recall, it was not presented as a black / white rivalry..

Also, don't forget, in much of the 70s the ABA was stealing fans with high flying players like Dr J and Pete Maravich. They were so successful at draining NBA fans that they forced a merger. The NBA wasn't losing fans for being "too black" as you say. Basketball still had the same number of fans. but there was another league that was in many cases just as good, and it had the most exciting player in the game at that time, that being the above mentioned Dr. J. He was Michael Jordan for his time. People loved watching him play. (In all honesty, i'm not much of an pro basketball fan, I've always preferred the NCAA game.. But when he was playing I was. He was amazing.)

~Bang

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Wait? 1983 you were how old (9) having intellectual conversations about the coach of Georgetown?

I was a precocious kid in a big Italian family. I was playing illegal slot machines at age 5. (I recently had a conversation with my father to confirm that this was not a hallucination). My first four-team parlay? 1984. (I had two cousins who were bookies and were willing to take my $5 action with my dad's permission).

You have digressed over time with your racism showing like symbol of honor.

I just think it's amazing how terrified we are as a nation to have real discussions on race.

Oh, I don't really hate white people. Just white people who pay lacrosse.

[Thiebear]

I was a precocious kid in a big Italian family. I was playing illegal slot machines at age 5. (I recently had a conversation with my father to confirm that this was not a hallucination). My first four-team parlay? 1984. (I had two cousins who were bookies and were willing to take my $5 action with my dad's permission).

I just think it's amazing how terrified we are as a nation to have real discussions on race.

Oh' date=' I don't really hate white people. Just white people who pay lacrosse.

[/quote']

Your definition of a "real" discussion is "Scared the PISS out of White America"

Nice try, please try again.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

When NCAA ball really started to get a lot of national notice as a big time TV sport was when Magic Johnson went against Larry Bird in the NCAA title game. But as I recall, no one matched it up as anything other than the best two players to come along in decades facing off. It wasn't presented as a black man vs a white man in any respected journal.

(Now, remember i say this as far as I can recall. There may indeed have been some, but again, I don't make excuses for the ignorant. I say, and continue to say sports is a healer, not a divider.) Magic and Bird injected that same excitement back into the NBA as well, and again, as far as I can recall, it was not presented as a black / white rivalry..

Also, don't forget, in much of the 70s the ABA was stealing fans with high flying players like Dr J and Pete Maravich. They were so successful at draining NBA fans that they forced a merger.

~Bang

I grew up a huge Celtics fan. And to think that there was not an elemnt of race in the Bird/Magic rivalry is simply the height of naievete. Just read any story from the time period comparing the Lakers or the Celtics.

The Lakers were showtime....high-flying...fast breaking.......athletic

The Celtics were old-school...intelligent...hard-working.......blue-collar

You can pretend that those words don't mean anything in sports. But they do. And they certainly did in 1984.

Bob Ryan wrote that the Celtics were not a racist team by any stretch. But...if you happened to be a racist...the Celtics were almost certainly your team.

Race was always bubbling under the surface with Bird - which is what led to the Rodman/Isiah "If Bird were black, he would just be another guy..." controversy.

Chuck Klosterman has a very funny and intelligent essay on the Lakers/Celtics rivalry in "Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs."

I would make the argument that Bird would have been a great player regardless of his race. But the Bird/Magic rivalry would have been 25 percent less impactful if Bird were black.

(Klosterman makes a fascinating point in his essay by the way. Magic grew up in a stable two-parent home in a middle class neighborhood. Bird grew up dirt poor with an alcoholic father who eventually committed suicide. You could make the argument that Bird's background was more stereotypically "black" than Magic's).

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Your definition of a "real" discussion is "Scared the PISS out of White America"

Nice try, please try again.

I like being colorful.

If the title was simply "scared Whte America" would you find a problem with my thoughts?

[Chants]

China's 1968 Ping Pong team. Those orientals steamrolled the U.S. of A.

/end thread

[Bang]

I just think it's amazing how terrified we are as a nation to have real discussions on race.

Well, it sure isn't for a lack of trying.

To have a real discussion, one has to be prepared to have their notions challenged, and to possibly see that they may be in error.

In 83 I was 20, you were 9. Your knowledge and experience on this subject comes from writings. (and lets face it,, assigning racism to something is a sure fire way to get your column read. Nothing generates more interest except sex. The difference is we all agree on sex. This board is a fine microcosm. Other than the usual political pissing matches, race topics ALWAYS generate plenty of opinions and responses.)

My knowledge and experience comes from actually being there as an obsessed young adult sports fan. (An obsession I happily continue.)

It's easy to insulate what you read, because you can choose which topics or viewpoints you want. It's not so easy to insulate personal experience.

~Bang

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Well, it sure isn't for a lack of trying.

To have a real discussion, one has to be prepared to have their notions challenged, and to possibly see that they may be in error.

In 83 I was 20, you were 9. Your knowledge and experience on this subject comes from writings. (and lets face it,, assigning racism to something is a sure fire way to get your column read. Nothing generates more interest except sex. The difference is we all agree on sex. This board is a fine microcosm. Other than the usual political pissing matches, race topics ALWAYS generate plenty of opinions and responses.)

My knowledge and experience comes from actually being there as an obsessed young adult sports fan. (An obsession I happily continue.)

It's easy to insulate what you read, because you can choose which topics or viewpoints you want. It's not so easy to insulate personal experience.

~Bang

I would also argue that you would not fit comfortably into the "White America" at the title of my post.

I went to a high school with two black students. I spent my teenage years in a town with no black people. There are millions of people in the midwest who share this same experience. And that is the White America, I am largely discussing.

I could change the title to "scared the piss out of Sarah Palin's current fanbase" and make my point clearer.

In fact, let's do that.

From now on, instead of White America, think Sarah Palin supporters. It's the same idea.

Oh...and here is the essay.

http://books.google.com/books?id=AHekpO_OM0oC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=chuck+klosterman+celtics+lakers&source=bl&ots=grcTvkClkt&sig=GdMVkTK53vxNJfIGFCSbG0ENMUg&hl=en&ei=It8fS6y4JJPaNtjm2MQC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CBsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=chuck%20klosterman%20celtics%20lakers&f=false

[Kilmer17]

Sports Teams that scare Black America-

Birds Lakers.

The NHL

/thread.

[Bang]

I grew up a huge Celtics fan. And to think that there was not an elemnt of race in the Bird/Magic rivalry is simply the height of naievete. Just read any story from the time period comparing the Lakers or the Celtics.

The Lakers were showtime....high-flying...fast breaking.......athletic

The Celtics were old-school...intelligent...hard-working.......blue-collar

You can pretend that those words don't mean anything in sports. But they do. And they certainly did in 1984.

Bob Ryan wrote that the Celtics were not a racist team by any stretch. But...if you happened to be a racist...the Celtics were almost certainly your team.

Race was always bubbling under the surface with Bird - which is what led to the Rodman/Isiah "If Bird were black' date=' he would just be another guy..." controversy.

Chuck Klosterman has a very funny and intelligent essay on the Lakers/Celtics rivalry in "Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs."

I would make the argument that Bird would have been a great player regardless of his race. But the Bird/Magic rivalry would have been 25 percent less impactful if Bird were black.

(Klosterman makes a fascinating point in his essay by the way. Magic grew up in a stable two-parent home in a middle class neighborhood. Bird grew up dirt poor with an alcoholic father who eventually committed suicide. You could make the argument that Bird's background was more stereotypically "black" than Magic's).[/quote']

You can certainly assign belief to anything you want, and you have in this post.

Here's a thought. West coast is always associated with "high flying air it out". East coast is not. In anything, from business to sports. AFL, mostly western teams, high flyi8ng. NFL, mostly eastern teams, grinding football. The west has a reputation of being loose and easy,, the east has a reputation of being buttoned down and serious. The reputations are New York= business hub. LA= the land of make believe. Boston = working class, San Francisco= hippies and every other counterculture group in American history.

Bob Ryan's comments do not point out anything other than if you WERE a racist, you'd probably like the Celtics because they had Bird, Ainge and McHale. But they also had Parrish, they had ML Carr, Tiny Archibald, and Gerald Henderson.

And once again, I do not make excuses for the ignorant, and in that statement, neither is Ryan.

In those days as a young man, I had subscriptions to SI and the Sporting News. (There weren't any other national sports publications of any note except one which I can't recall the name, It didn't last very long.. it tried to be a competitor of SI and failed after 2 or 3 years. I read it occasionally, but again, I can't even remember the name..) I read them faithfully. The things you're saying were being written were not being written in ANY respectable sports journal. So when you say "Read ANY article from back then and i will find it.. well, I did. And it wasn't there.

I hate to play the age card, but personal experience trumps anecdotal experience.

Isiah's comments display his own racism, no one else's. Is he saying Bird really wasn't that GOOD? That in itself is laughable, and I can tell you I am NO fan of the Celtics or Bird. In fact, the only NBA team i ever did like was the 76ers (due to Juilus Erving) and as such the Celtics were rivals.

But you can't have watched him play and not been able to see that he was one of the best players in the country, and one of the best to have ever played, regardless of his race.

~Bang

[Major Harris]

And' date=' with that, I declare victory.

I seriously heard this from every white steelworker I knew in 1983. And in 1983, I only knew white steelworkers.

I will make this concession. If you lived inside the Beltway in 1983, you may have no idea how truly hated John Thompson was in the rest of America. I spent my childhood in West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Ohio. John Thompson was seen as a cross between Huey P. Newton and Satan Incarnate. I really can't even begin to describe the level of hate that was directed towards him.[/quote']

funny, i grew up in west virginia and knew tons of bandwagon georgetown fans. i never heard a whole lot of hate for john thompson.

[grhqofb5]

This Redskins team scares the piss out of me, and I'm white. But it's not because they're black. And I'm not really all that white, now that I think about it.

[Predicto]

I think Lombardi is making some great points.

When I was a kid, I was a Hoya Basketball fan (my dad went there). I went off to college in the Midwest in 1980, and met other white basketball fans, mostly from the Midwest. Without exception, every one of them hated the Hoyas. Not just a little, a lot. They were the team that was "destroying basketball." They were scary and disgraceful. They were too black.

I might add that a good friend of mine went to Georgetown at the same time as Patrick Ewing, and was in two classes with him. He said that Ewing was very thoughtful and intelligent (but he was shy and spoke too quietly, and it it was hard to understand his deep rumbly voice).

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

funny, i grew up in west virginia and knew tons of bandwagon georgetown fans. i never heard a whole lot of hate for john thompson.

I posted this in another thread, but it applies here.

You know what I find interesting.

I've never met a racist on the internet.

I've been posting to various internet forums since 1996. And I've discussed race a million times. And I've never met a person (aside from MSF here) who has ever said, "You know...I'm not that comfortable around black people." Or "I'm not attacted to black women."

(Edit: Or, I've never rooted for an athlete because he is white/black).

Everyone lives in a multi-cultural paradise. Even Pat Buchanan supporters back in the day had plenty of black friends and black sons in law that they loved.

Except on Free Republic. Those people are not afraid to say what they feel. Which is why my one attempt to post there in 2002 resulted in being banned within five minutes.

(Edit: I remember when Michael Jordan was axed by Abe Pollin. Wilbon predicted that the argument would break along racial lines and it largely did. The hubbub has died down because everyone has now come to see that Jordan is a terrible exec.

But all of our major sports scandals have huge racial undertones: OJ, Michael Vick, Now Tiger. But everyone who discusses them on a message board has to preface by saying, "I don't think in racial terms....." And it's all bull****).