The Random Thought Thread (Stadium Edition)

[Epochalypse]

In order to become one of those teams that gets comp picks you have to develop people other teams want to sign as well as develop the players to replace those leaving.  Getting there will take a plan and time to have that plan run its course.

 

Our FA to this point seems to suggest we are working on getting to that point by the types of players we've signed.  But it's not going to happen immediately.

[TexasSkinsFan]

I get what your saying Epoc but disagree

We won't get any thing for Orakpo because we signed other people. We won't get anything for Helu because we signed other people. So there goes the whole "develop people other teams want to sign"

IF you sign other teams players you won't get any free picks, not signing players doesn't take any time to do so there goes your "Our FA to this point seems to suggest we are working on getting to that point by the types of players we've signed.  But it's not going to happen immediately." idea too. It could have happened immediately

You simply do not sign other teams Free Agents if you want Compensatory picks.

The way we handled this years FA wasn't much different to me then in the past couple of years in regards to compensatory picks. We signed a bunch of guys, we killed our chance to get any compensatory picks back and won't get any, and this week we are going to hear how the good teams are getting rewarded with more free picks.That sucks. We have to get there but signing a bunch of other teams players is exactly how not to do that

[Epochalypse]

But every one of the players we did sign are expected to get signed to follow on contracts, either by us or by other teams.

 

The only way to have Orakpo and Helu garner us comp picks is to sign absolutely no FAs and we have too many holes for that to happen.  Have to keep the long term goals in mind.  Culliver, Johnson, Paea, and maybe even Knighton signed reasonable contracts and could indeed play important roles in the future for our team.  Getting those comp picks next year are not as important as getting in quality young players right now. 

 

Comp picks become more important when we can start letting older players go because we have their replacements already in place.  We aren't in a place to be concerned about collecting comp picks right now.

[pjfootballer]

Build the foundation through years of drafting and the FA picks become less and less needed. That is when you start earning comp picks.

This is not an overnight transition. I'm still not sure why our fans continue to complain, when this is just the beginning and the first step in transforming the team.

[TexasSkinsFan]

But every one of the players we did sign are expected to get signed to follow on contracts, either by us or by other teams.

 

The only way to have Orakpo and Helu garner us comp picks is to sign absolutely no FAs and we have too many holes for that to happen.  Have to keep the long term goals in mind.  Culliver, Johnson, Paea, and maybe even Knighton signed reasonable contracts and could indeed play important roles in the future for our team.  Getting those comp picks next year are not as important as getting in quality young players right now. 

 

Comp picks become more important when we can start letting older players go because we have their replacements already in place.  We aren't in a place to be concerned about collecting comp picks right now.

 

I disagree with this and of course that snarky remark that PJ just put there and we can agree to disagree but let it sink in with you that the Ravens who I have zero affection for since they came to existance long after I moved from the local area, were winning the Superbowl in 2012 and currently have only 5 starters on that team remaining on it today just a few years removed from it yet were a bad refs call away last year from appearing in yet another AFC Championship game. 

 

The team says they value draft picks but they act in ways that show we are miles behind the Ravens in terms of running a team in ways that we still don't seem to understand as an organization. I said last week that you shouldn't sell your teams soul (In regards to the pukes recent addition of Hardy) and today I'm saying we have to build ours.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/14/ravens-play-the-long-game-with-compensatory-picks/

 

Very good article which I think you should read. I didn't put this here to debate with you, I realize I might attract posters with my thoughts, but since I have your ear why not educate yourselves some?

 

People view Compensatory picks and Free Agency differently but they are uniquely connected. The Ravens have been awarded the most compensatory picks since that started because they have a much different philosophy then shared by this team or the fan base.

 

1. The Ravens know that you don't retool your team in Free Agency. You point to us doing exactly that with those signings. That's retooling and you do not do that in Free Agency, if your team does not do that in Free Agency then your team is rewarded with extra draft picks. What's most important to a team? Draft picks. Anyone posting "Go get that guy" and I've done this recently when I said go get Rivers which I'm sure you both likely disagreed with, but that is a top 10 NFL QB in this league and immediately would put us on top of this division so there are exceptions to the rule, however normally there aren't. Will Culliver, Johnson, Paea, or Knighton offset the fact we won't get any compensatory picks for Orakpo and Helu? Highly doubtful. If we didn't sign those guys we would have gotten extra picks next year. That's the thing about compensatory picks vs. Free Agency. Compensatory picks are the longview at looking at your team, free agency is bandaid short sightedness.

 

2. They know that it is very bad business to get into bidding wars for the players they might lose. The Ravens do something unheard of to most of you. They set up formulas that say for example if they lose Torrey Smith they will get a 3rd round draft pick if he signs for X number of dollars. So they offer him below that, and they wait to see if another team signs him. They know the players going to take the most money they can so when Smith moves on it's actually very good for them, they just got a 3rd round draft pick. They have shown to themselves that it starts and ends with Flacco and only he is the unreplaceable player to that team. Instead of bidding up players they let them leave. Right now it appears as if the Ravens are hurting, but that's short sighted. They know they will be fine getting more picks down the road like that. If Redskins fans were in Ravens fans shoes today we would be having meltdowns

 

3. Most important, the Ravens know that what separates teams most of all in the NFL is scouting and the NFL draft. It is the life blood of that franchise and why they don't seem to miss a beat when they have so much turnover. Scouts can find the players that can play on that team, they are amazing at using that farm system. We on the other hand hopefully are better today then this time last year but have a long ways to go to be on that level of thinking.

 

 

What I want is to get Scott more draft picks, why because he is the guru at spotting talent. So the more picks he can get in his hands the better we should be right? Well that's one way another team does it. We should be doing the same. That comes with maturity, and it starts with people understanding that not doing anything in FA is actually a very very smart thing to do.

Edited March 23, 2015 by TexasSkinsFan

[Epochalypse]

You seem to be missing where we need players other teams want in order to get comp picks. Scot signed 4 players who arguably can get us comp picks after their contract with us is up. Who on our roster prior to signing them was capable of doing that?

[TexasSkinsFan]

You seem to be missing where we need players other teams want in order to get comp picks. Scot signed 4 players who arguably can get us comp picks after their contract with us is up. Who on our roster prior to signing them was capable of doing that?

 

 

If you think that losing Orakpo wouldn't have earned us a high compensatory pick on his own then your wrong. Orakpo signed a 4 year 32 million dollar contact with Tennessee. Orakpo's contract just on it's own last year would be worth a 3rd round pick for compensatory picks. The problem is that is what we just gave Chris Culliver the same contract, 4 years 32 million bucks. So instead of us getting a 4th or a 3rd round pick the contracts will offset and we get no compensatory picks for Orakpo leaving.

 

What I am saying to you is that when you say things like

 

"You seem to be missing where we need players other teams want in order to get comp picks."

 

Your wrong. We had the players others wanted and could have gotten a pick next year for him. Instead we used Free Agency again the wrong way and we won't get anything.

 

Do you have a problem with us getting an extra 3rd round pick?

 

As for what you said about next year, I'm not sure you even understand this. For every guy we lose, if we bring in someone through Free Agency the chances that were going to get any compensatory picks goes way down. Only when we decide to sit out Free Agency and make the draft the priority will we ever reap this reward.

 

Everything we lose is compared to what we gained, and there is a net. In this case Orakpo and Culliver canceled each other out. Will Culliver be worth more then a 3rd round pick next year, we don't have any idea at this point, but long term the answer is NO. Short term its YES.

 

That's our take on FA, its always about the short term and never enough about the long term and we need to change that

Edited March 23, 2015 by TexasSkinsFan

[Epochalypse]

So you felt that Scot should have made no attempt other than his draft picks to improve a roster that went 4-12 last year.

 

What GM in his right mind would do that?

 

Especially considering we HAD to spend money in some way shape or form to avoid being penalized.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Epochalypse

[TexasSkinsFan]

So you felt that Scot should have made no attempt other than his draft picks to improve a roster that went 4-12 last year.

 

What GM in his right mind would do that?

 

Especially considering we HAD to spend money in some way shape or form to avoid being penalized.

 

Appreciate the afternoon company Epoch.....

 

So first you do know that the DRAFT is a way and the very best way to improve your team right?

 

Also you do know that if a player is cut he is not a free agent that counts in compensatory picks right?

 

And you do know that teams that spend money in FA generally do not win right? The results for big spending in FA doesn't work. We of all fans should know that

 

And maybe you know that money we "had" to spend could have been used to re-sign players like Ryan Kerrigan and Trent Williams and we still need to do that right so not doing that actually hurts us right?

 

And you do know that the Patriots and Ravens haven't gone out there spending crazy money this year like the teams like us did so many times and they are always winning right?

 

Or maybe you don't so your welcome for the education.

 

Either way let me be very clear with you. Spending money in Free Agency does not equal success and the best teams like the Patriots and Ravens do not spend money in it. In fact

 

http://overthecap.com/draft

 

Shows which teams next year likely will get those extra draft picks and guess who's on the list expected to get 3rd to 5th round compensatory picks next year?

 

DET, NE, SEA, CAR, DEN, SF, BAL, GB, DAL, CLE,

All playoff teams last year except the 49ers and Browns. And which teams will get the most picks? Denver with 4 and the Ravens with 3 picks. Year after year its the same for the Ravens, always near the top for extra picks. 

 

Why aren't we getting anything? Oh it's because we spent the money that's why doh! It's the same every year for us.

 

When things like this happen year after year you should stop and ask why, because clearly you do not get this, it is not a coincidence that we are not on that list. It's because our approach to FA is wrong and if you understood this maybe you would look at a team like the Ravens who have won multiple Superbowls since our last one, who are always competing, who are always getting extra multiple picks and think that shinny new toy is not what we need.

Edited March 23, 2015 by TexasSkinsFan

[Epochalypse]

Let's try to use some analysis.

 

The website you have shows DET receiving no comp picks for 2015.  The website also shows CAR receiving no comp draft picks for 2015.  Ditto for DAL and CLE.  So that's three teams that got to the playoffs this year because they signed more in free agency then they lost the year prior.

 

Here's a list of the teams that received comp picks for 2015 who did not make the playoffs last year:  KC, SF, HOU, StL, NO.  KC, SF and NO made the playoffs the year prior.  But hey at least they got comp picks this year right?

 

The Pats as recently as 2013 received no comp draft picks.  They also had no comp draft picks in 2012 and 2011.

 

The Broncos didn't receive comp picks in 2014, because they signed a bunch of players who ended up starting on a team that went to the Super Bowl, one of which became an All Pro. 

 

GB and BAL have long been very good at drafting so it makes sense that they get a lot of comp draft picks.  But even they got there over time and have had their share of rough seasons during that time frame.

 

Seattle and SF got to where they are with the help of our current GM.  You know, the guy you are criticizing for his activity in free agency this year.

 

I agree with you that we want to get to a place where we are getting comp picks, but the way you are suggesting we go about it is just dumb.  The idea that a 4-12 team can completely write off FA is significantly prolonging the time it takes to turn a team around and by the time it might eventually work, you've gone through so much upheaval and those comp picks you'd have picked up this year would be long gone off to a team that actually did things the right way.

[pjfootballer]

The Ravens have been doing for years what we are just attempting to do. Not a fair comparison.

My remark was not snarky in the least. We still have fans that are impatient and don't believe Scot can turn it around. That's ok, we'll see who will be eating crow. If it's me, I'll eat it. But I doubt it.

 

***Sorry, I was on my phone and couldn't type a lengthy response.  See post below this morning. 

 

Didn't realise you were formerly Hankersonfan.  I've been on my phone mostly without the signatures.

Edited March 24, 2015 by pjfootballer

[pjfootballer]

I disagree with this and of course that snarky remark that PJ just put there and we can agree to disagree but let it sink in with you that the Ravens who I have zero affection for since they came to existance long after I moved from the local area, were winning the Superbowl in 2012 and currently have only 5 starters on that team remaining on it today just a few years removed from it yet were a bad refs call away last year from appearing in yet another AFC Championship game.

The team says they value draft picks but they act in ways that show we are miles behind the Ravens in terms of running a team in ways that we still don't seem to understand as an organization. I said last week that you shouldn't sell your teams soul (In regards to the pukes recent addition of Hardy) and today I'm saying we have to build ours.

What I want is to get Scott more draft picks, why because he is the guru at spotting talent. So the more picks he can get in his hands the better we should be right? Well that's one way another team does it. We should be doing the same. That comes with maturity, and it starts with people understanding that not doing anything in FA is actually a very very smart thing to do.

For some reason I feel that maybe (just my guess) you know a Raven's fan(s) and they are giving you a hard time about the Redskins. The Ravens, Packers, Steelers, Patriots and teams like that have had a certain team building philosophy for years. Some for 40 years (Steelers), some for 25 years (Packers) and some for about 15 years (Patriots and Ravens). Prior to their recent run the Ravens (old Browns) and Patriots were not very good teams at doing much.

I don't think the Redskins have given away picks since Shanahan's first year when he traded for Brown (OL) and McNabb or the RGIII trade. Otherwise, we've had our full compliment of picks. Hopefully Scot will keep all our picks as he prefers the draft. Sure, you do make a valid point that compensatory picks will help tremendously. No one disagrees with you there. What we do disagree with is your unwilliness to follow a process to get those picks. This is the first year under Scot. By my count, we've signed 4 FA's (Paea, Culliver, JJ and Knighton) and had 3 signed (Helu, Orakpo and Hankerson). We've re-signed Paul, McCoy, and signed some UDFA's, which is what you said you wanted them to do. We have more guys that are FAs that may sign with other teams (Jarvis Jenkins in talks with Chicago), so depending on the formula, maybe we get 1 next year. Who knows?

You are trying to compare us to other teams that have been doing this for years. This is the first year that we actually have a guy in charge that has a plan. My point about the foundation (which is what Scot wants to build) is you get a solid foundation and just like the Ravens et al, when one draft pick gets too expensive, you let him walk, you draft his replacement and get a compensatory pick for him. Believe me, we understand "exactly" what you are saying and don't disagree with the philosophy. What we are saying is, these comp picks aren't going to magically appear. They didn't magically appear to the Ravens day one. It took them time. It will take us time.

I find part of your post a little hypocritical as you say the team doesn't "value" draft picks and you are complaining that they signed 3 (1 does count as he had been released) guys, but then want to "go after" Rivers and give up a top 5 pick. That's doing just what you said you don't want the team to do.

Scot is big on the draft. I'm sure you know that already. I think he's more of a quality of quantity draft kind of guy. I don't remember the Seahawks or Niners having a ton of picks, but I could be wrong. He's very good at finding talent past the 1st and 2nd round, which has been the largest problem with our team.  I agree with you that it sucks that the Ravens have had 44 total Comp picks to our 12 in the same time span.  That's 32 more potential players.  Wish we could be like that, but maybe now, we are going to.

I'm also sure there will be a shakeup in the scouting system once the draft is over. I can't imagine he'll go with what we have here and not bring his own guys in. I'm sure we have a few guys on staff he may want to keep, but it was a little late to be switching staffs at this point. As fans, we've all been saying our scouting department needed an overhaul. He has total control over that. The man has been in his office for a little over a month. Gotta give him time to assess things and make incremental changes.

I just feel like you want "instant" change (and I apoligize in advance if that is not the case) just by the way you ranted during your post. Stop worrying about the damn Ravens so much. And again, my remark was not meant to be snarky, just telling the truth with some of our fans. They pissed and moaned that we weren't doing things right and we didn't have a real GM, but the moment we get a real GM and we start doing things right, they still aren't satisfied.

It sucks. I'm tired of being patient like the rest of the fans. But I really thing this is the first time in 15 years that we have direction. For the first time in 15 years, I feel comfortable with what the team is doing. I don't know, just a feeling. Give it time man. Give Scot some time. He deserves it.

BTW, I forgot to add:

Ravens dead cap money for 2015- $20, 803,158

Redskins dead cap money for 2015- $7,130,199

Just saying...

Edited March 24, 2015 by pjfootballer

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 random thoughts:

1. I want Breeland to be the most improved player from last year. Would really help the secondary go from pitiful too good.

2. If Griffin is going to be the day one starter, I would like to see him start and play a lot in the preseason.much more than he did last year. Full halves of games and into the third quarter consistently.

[MattFancy]

2 random thoughts:

1. I want Breeland to be the most improved player from last year. Would really help the secondary go from pitiful too good.

2. If Griffin is going to be the day one starter, I would like to see him start and play a lot in the preseason.much more than he did last year. Full halves of games and into the third quarter consistently.

 

1. I agreed. If Breeland can improve on 2014, he can be a stud.

 

2. 10000000% agree. Think Griffin saw the fewest time of all the starters in the league last year. Not sure why. I know we all don't want to see injuries in the preseason and think its meaningless, but we need to see more of Griffin. Gruden says he's a big reps guy, then Griffin (or Cousins or McCoy or whoever the starter is) needs all the 1st team reps in the preseason they can get.

[abdcskins]

I wish we had kept Brad Johnson.

[darrelgreenie]

I love listening to Jim Tomsula speak.

[Malapropismic Depository]

Any word on Santana ?

Is there a chance they're just waiting to re-sign him later, or have they indicated he is probably done as a Redskin ?

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Prett bad grammar/spelling in the thread title.

[pjfootballer]

Love what Santana gave us, but personally I think it's time to move on.

[jflow78]

Let's try to use some analysis....

Your entire post was pretty much what I was thinking.

 

 

Prett bad grammar/spelling in the thread title.

 

Uh oh, we're going to get hammered again. 

Edited April 30, 2015 by jflow78

[MattFancy]

Love what Santana gave us, but personally I think it's time to move on.

 

Agreed. This team is in rebuild mode, let some younger WRs, like Grant, get their chances. If the team wants Santana back, bring him on as a WR coach or something.

[Qdeathstar]

So... If we are able to turn pick five into a 1st and 2nd this year and a 1st next year, does the credit go to bob for his play

[tshile]

every year i go into the offseason saying - wait until september, temper excitement, don't waste time during the off season.

 

then the draft roles around and i'm like - oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god, redskins redskins redskins redskins

 

it's an unhealthy obsession. i have a problem.

[Jumbo]

I finally saw a guy do something here on ES that I've been wondering if I would see...use the fact that he gets a "lot of likes" on his posts as a credibility/expertise reference in some thread discussion here (already have seen it on an audio forum )...

 

other guys on the internets agree with me...how internetty...

 

You know one of the things looking at a list of who has the most "likes" in places like this shows?

 

That people of very conflicting views will be in the same "like" brackets...what a shocker

 

Bottom line I wouldn't use it on an actual resume'. 

 

And I'm sure he must disagree with me on at least some stuff pretty strongly, but I am comfy knowing I have way way many more likes than him. I assume this means I'm way way many more smarter. 

[DaGoonie55]

Lol thats absolutely the most worthless self advocation ive ever heard.

Pfffft

Ill use that in my next interview,"i get lots of likes on my posts on an online forum. Im kind of a big deal."