What do some of you not understand?

[fansince62]

I just read this... Mr. Madd is getting Banned for being a liar. You should let him defend himself... The trial of Mr. Madd would be a great string...

NO EXIT!!!!

[Art]

Exactly. A long time ago Art was way above this. For Art's benefit, I hope he's just having a really bad day and will admit to it.

It seems Art is being held accountable for his actions and now has disappeared from the thread. I hope Art will rise above this, see how he has broken the very rule he's using for banning others and will apologize for his actions. Otherwise, I've completely lost what respect I still had for this venue and its administrators.

I do work, too. .

Madd's on read-only for talking about his past ban in a false way. All bans here are recorded and the reasons are clear both to the member and the staff. Return from bans is an agreement Madd just violated. I'll give him a chance to correct it, but, Madd may not.

I have long enjoyed Madd on the board. I even told him I thought to make him a mod here not too long ago, running it up the food chain with everyone else on staff. I like rabble rousers who stir the pot. Madd knows this. He also knows his biggest weakness and has a hard time overcoming it. Unfortunately he went where he agreed he wouldn't when he was allowed back.

When Madd asked for me to apologize to him for saying he didn't post much in 2005, I did. The next apology you'll hear is from him, or he won't be heard from. And that has nothing to do with THIS conversation. It has to do with breaking his word to me from before.

Frankly, I don't really require any feedback on this.

Hailskins, you don't know what a "call out" thread is. This isn't. Neither was Madd's about Gibbs being a liar directed to and at me. It's debate. There's LOTS of room for it. I debate with Madd frequently. He only runs into trouble when he does his dance of death and mostly runs in to it because he likes to. He calls his spring routine a rite of passage .

[Art]

You opinion. Not mine. Brunell was horrid in 04. So was Ramsey. We had Coles an nothing else at WR (which, wasnt that much since we traded him for Moss)

Team Offence was 11th in the league in 05

It was was 30th in 04.

The defence had aboslutely NO help from the Offense, and still was in the run for the best unit in the NFL till the last game of the season.

I consider 05 to be much less impressive. And I'll bet that most people that watched the games in those years would agree.

Sorry, Morne. Specifically I'm asking you to evaluate the opponents we played in 2004 and the opponents we played in 2005. Check the average yards per game by each team. Compare it to our defensive performance. Tell me what you find. You can be ranked lower statistically yet be better overall. And given that level of competition and our greater achievements as a team, I believe most here would prefer 2005 to 2004. Don't you?

[Hooper]

So, I'm a little confused, what specifically did Madd get banned for?

Thanks.

[monkforhall]

I do work, too. .

I have long enjoyed Madd on the board. I even told him I thought to make him a mod here not too long ago, running it up the food chain with everyone else on staff. I like rabble rousers who stir the pot. .

I'd like to nominate Mass for Mod. He loves to stir the pot.

[project myu]

The post that supposedly led to MRMADD being banned..

Hell, I got banned just for calling Manuel White a fullback. Apparently he was an H-back. Until we stopped having H-backs. Then he went back to being a fullback.

I'm still waiting for my apology.

The mandate from Art two years ago..

The next -- and every -- person who says we drafted two fullbacks when neither guy played fullback in college and neither guy projects to play fullback in the pros gets banned for sheer idiocy.

The post that presumably got MRMADD banned the first time..

Art, Art, Art. This thread is not your finest hour. Going into the draft, needs: DE, DB, WR, QB, DT, LB, RB/HB, OG, TE, S

Carlos Rogers, DB -- check.

Jason Campbell, QB -- check.

Manuel White, FB -- no.

Robert McCune, LB -- no.

Jared Newberry, LB -- no.

Nemo Broughton, FB -- no.

So now you see: we didn't take what we needed. We took what the FO misguidedly thought were the best players available. I'm a big fan of BPA because it keeps you from reaching down and overpaying for "need" player (like Campbell) who would be available later. In this case, however, the FO's poor scouting means that these four guys aren't "needs" and weren't the BPAs. Oh well. Late round picks are always a crapshoot.

...????

[fansince62]

ok...I've had it...time to turn this thread in a very nasty direction...

Let's talk about Lavar!

[HailSkinz1]

I did listen. The part when Gibbs explained how grades are made didn't involve Snyder. Snyder owns like 10 businesses. He's not sitting in offering input on individual players. His coaches, Gibbs and scouting department do all that and come to a consensus. AFTER that, Gibbs works with Vinny to and Dan to see what scenarios work within the league and the cap. It's pretty straightforward. Snyder has input in the process. Snyder is not involved at that level. He's involved AFTER, when those decisions are made and grades assigned when his role is relevant.

Art, it's getting so twisted that it really is ridiculous. People can make up their own minds what the Redskins do and what they say they do. But it sounds very clear to me that Snyder is one third of the player personnel decision making process. You can parse the words any way you want to.

And if the guy who writes the checks has any input whatsoever, then he also has some influence.

Hail,

H

[Art]

LOL! Mr. Madd has just received the ultimate compliment. Too funny!

I understand, all too well, when someone gets banned for saying something inappropriate in an attempt at humor. That would be a well deserved punishment. But- this... too much. It's like playing your college room mate in Madden and beating him so bad that he breaks the controller.

The Redskins decision making process is commonly questioned by both the media and fans. I don't think anyone argues the fact that the Redskins say publicly that Joe Gibbs is the final decision maker. The question is who makes the decisions behind closed doors.

The Briggs trade at a minimum gave a glimpse of how Snyder has a much larger role in the decision making process than what the Redskins organization acknowledges. A trade was initiated and worked out by Snyder and Cerrato, and then brought to Gibbs as an after thought. To look back at those trade talks and use the fact that the Redskins say Joe Gibbs is the final decision maker, as the end all be all in arguments is pretty weak.

It’s easier to disrespect yourself, than to earn respect from others.

Vive La Mr. Madd!

Running a message board requires some belief the people having conversations are going to have them honestly. Madd typically doesn't. He makes statements that are untrue, like Snyder makes the decisions over Gibbs head. He gets comments back that Snyder doesn't, Gibbs makes the decisions. He then changes his words to read, "Everyone knows Snyder's involved," and from that acknowledged agreement, turns, "involved" to "meddles".

Then, suggests those rejecting his initial and core premise that Gibbs isn't the authority on such moves is suggesting Snyder is sipping pina coladas. And, unfortunately, a number of people seem to think this is so. It's a strange thing, but, that doesn't alter the foundation of the conversation.

Madd doesn't believe Gibbs makes the decision. Madd does believe Snyder does, often over Gibbs' wishes. I don't believe that. I believe Gibbs makes the decisions. I believe he does so, as he's said, with input from everyone in the organization who all have responsibilities and roles. And though Snyder says no decision was made under Gibbs he has disagreed with, citing Moss as the only time it has happened under Marty, I bet there are times Snyder would prefer another path but yields to Gibbs, as he should given Gibbs is the face and central figure for the organization.

Rejecting Madd's premise doesn't mean anyone believes Snyder lives in Arizona. It merely means Snyder isn't making the decisions. Gibbs is. And that's been shown time and again.

[Art]

So, I'm a little confused, what specifically did Madd get banned for?

Thanks.

He didn't get banned.

And, this has been fully explained. Read it, and quit being confused.

[HailSkinz1]

The post that supposedly led to MRMADD being banned..

The mandate from Art two years ago..

The post that presumably got MRMADD banned the first time..

...????

That's pretty damning evidence right there. So, it seems MRMADD was banned for calling White a FB, and then banned for saying he was banned for calling White a fullback.

Okay.....

[Art]

Art, it's getting so twisted that it really is ridiculous. People can make up their own minds what the Redskins do and what they say they do. But it sounds very clear to me that Snyder is one third of the player personnel decision making process. You can parse the words any way you want to.

And if the guy who writes the checks has any input whatsoever, then he also has some influence.

Hail,

H

Again, no one has ever suggested Snyder lacks input, involvement or influence. Everyone has always rejected Madd's assertion that Gibbs isn't ultimately in charge. Indeed, Snyder has a key role in the organization. One clearly spelled out. And that's the conversation.

[monkforhall]

I got it. So Gibbs says. I would like to draft player A, B, or C.

Snyder says, ok Joe, But I am only going to right a check for players D or E. Decide which one you want.

[Dan T.]

Again, no one has ever suggested Snyder lacks input, involvement or influence. Everyone has always rejected Madd's assertion that Gibbs isn't ultimately in charge. Indeed, Snyder has a key role in the organization. One clearly spelled out. And that's the conversation.

FINALLY!! Art spells it out. Snyder has input, involvement, and influence in football-related decisions. And many many many many many people wish that this were not true. I think we've made a breakthrough here.

[Art]

That's pretty damning evidence right there. So, it seems MRMADD was banned for calling White a FB, and then banned for saying he was banned for calling White a fullback.

Okay.....

Indeed, we frequently, and will often, give people an opportunity to ban themselves as was done there for Madd. Om did it a while back in his suicide by mod thread. Someone there could say, "I got banned for posting "hello". And it wouldn't be true. Someone got banned for seeing the line, and rejecting it.

So, here, I'll provide you one here and one for every person to follow and I hope many do.

Anyone who says either of the following is banned.

1. That Dan Snyder is making the final decisions.

2. That saying Joe Gibbs is making the final decisions means that person is saying Dan Snyder is not involved in any way.

Now, if you right now say, "But Snyder is involved," I'll say, "Yep, he is, we know," and ban you, because no one has ever said otherwise. We've said he's not the ultimate decision maker and his role is clearly defined by every member of the org.

[19Skins72]

I believe Joe Gibbs makes the final decision on all things football.

I believe these decisions largely mirror Snyder's past decisions, because Gibbs AND Snyder have always loved the free agent, and Snyder has the resources to pursue that which he and his coaches (both past and present) want.

I believe this approach has gotten the Skins into trouble because either their talent evaluators are flawed, and/or this approach simply leaves us with undertalented depth across far too many areas.

I belive Art has the right of this arguement, and that Mr Madd is subtley changing the debate midstream as it were.

Just my :2cents:

[TK]

I'd like to nominate Mass for Mod. He loves to stir the pot.

Already nominated.

Just be glad that Mass refuses to accept.

[Art]

FINALLY!! Art spells it out. Snyder has input, involvement, and influence in football-related decisions. And many many many many many people wish that this were not true. I think we've made a breakthrough here.

I've always said this. Every member of the org has input, involvement and influence in football-related decisions. As Gibbs outlined, there's a "Redskins grade" not an individual grade. Now, Snyder doesn't participate down to that level. He participates once his people define who they value and helps fund the priorities.

[Morneblade]

Sorry, Morne. Specifically I'm asking you to evaluate the opponents we played in 2004 and the opponents we played in 2005. Check the average yards per game by each team. Compare it to our defensive performance. Tell me what you find. You can be ranked lower statistically yet be better overall. And given that level of competition and our greater achievements as a team, I believe most here would prefer 2005 to 2004. Don't you?

I'd take the 04 defence over the 05 one anyday.

As for competition, I would say that's pretty much a wash. in 04, we were coming off a 5-11 season. Not very good and you tend to get a easier schedual. However, in 05, we were coming off a 6-10 mark. Not very good. and you tend to get a easier schedual.

It looks like this:

2004 Washinton Redskins

| 1 | Tampa Bay Buccaneers | W | 16-10 |

| 2 | at New York Giants | L | 14-20 |

| 3 | Dallas Cowboys | L | 18-21 |

| 4 | at Cleveland Browns | L | 13-17 |

| 5 | Baltimore Ravens | L | 10-17 |

| 6 | at Chicago Bears | W | 13-10 |

| 7 | |

| 8 | Green Bay Packers | L | 14-28 |

| 9 | at Detroit Lions | W | 17-10 |

| 10 | Cincinnati Bengals | L | 10-17 |

| 11 | at Philadelphia Eagles | L | 6-28 |

| 12 | at Pittsburgh Steelers | L | 7-16 |

| 13 | New York Giants | W | 31- 7 |

| 14 | Philadelphia Eagles | L | 14-17 |

| 15 | at San Francisco 49ers | W | 26-16 |

| 16 | at Dallas Cowboys | L | 10-13 |

| 17 | Minnesota Vikings | W | 21-18

2005 Washinton Redskins

| 1 | Chicago Bears | W | 9- 7 |

| 2 | at Dallas Cowboys | W | 14-13 |

| 3 | |

| 4 | Seattle Seahawks | W | 20-17 |

| 5 | at Denver Broncos | L | 19-21 |

| 6 | at Kansas City Chiefs | L | 21-28 |

| 7 | San Francisco 49ers | W | 52-17 |

| 8 | at New York Giants | L | 0-36 |

| 9 | Philadelphia Eagles | W | 17-10 |

| 10 | at Tampa Bay Buccaneers | L | 35-36 |

| 11 | Oakland Raiders | L | 13-16 |

| 12 | San Diego Chargers | L | 17-23 |

| 13 | at St. Louis Rams | W | 24- 9 |

| 14 | at Arizona Cardinals | W | 17-13 |

| 15 | Dallas Cowboys | W | 35- 7 |

| 16 | New York Giants | W | 35-20 |

| 17 | at Philadelphia Eagles | W | 31-20

Neither one of these look to be a murder's row.

[Hooper]

I'm sorry, but Madd got banned. He didn't ban himself.

[project myu]

He didn't get banned.

And, this has been fully explained. Read it, and quit being confused.

:doh:

Reminds me of the Russian Roulette Thread.

Went something along the lines of..

Me: So what was the point of this thread?

Mod: The explanation has already been mentioned MANY times.

Me: Where???

Mod: Search.

Me: I did a search. I can't find it.

Mod: I don't have time to search.

Me: Wouldn't it just be easier to state the reason?

Mod: No. But if you must know... Blah blah blah. (Never answering what the "theory" was.)

*silence*

Another Mod: Don't bother explaining anything!

:doh:

[Art]

Morne, I appreciate the scores.

Can you go to NFL.com/stats and check each opponent. Write down their total yards per game. Then show that to us? Maybe I'm wrong in remembering the 2005 opponents were better offenses than 2004. Please disprove my belief.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Just two things:

1) I wish people would stop insisting on arguing whether or not Snyder has "influence"...it's his damn team, OF COURSE he does. I don't think either Art or MRMADD feels otherwise. Find all the out-of-context half-sentences you want to argue otherwise, but it would be a waste of time and message board space to do so. The only real argument between Art and MADD is/was who determined that we needed Archuletta, Fletcher, ARE, Lloyd, Taylor, Cooley, etc. Have the final decisions on these players been made by the coaches or by the owner?

Art says it's the coaches. MADD says it's the owner, at least a good percentage of the time. Just argue that point and leave the damn verbal hair-splitting out of it lol.

2) I don't know why MADD was "banned" or "put on read only" or whatever occurred...but I can say that I personally got into a HUGE lengthy and slightly ugly debate with Art myself awhile ago. In that thread I was probably irritating Art a million times more than MADD seems to be doing here. He even used a few words like "idiot" and "stupid" while putting down both my argument and my intelligence...and yes, I kept coming back again and again, responding with even lengthier posts lol. Art was irritated as hell, or appeared to be anyway. Yet he never came close to banning me or even warning me that he might.

My assumption with MADD, then comes from that perspective, and I'm just assuming that whatever Art did concerning MADD was not done simply because MADD "expressed an opinion" or "proved" Art was wrong (which I still don't think he has). I guess I see myself--and the fact that my posting priviledges have never once been interrupsted--as living proof that merely arguing with Art will not get you a time out in the corner.

[Art]

I'm sorry, but Madd got banned. He didn't ban himself.

No, Madd hasn't been banned. You've been told three times now what he has been. Let me know when you know the difference.

[Skinsinparadise]

Morne, I appreciate the scores.

Can you go to NFL.com/stats and check each opponent. Write down their total yards per game. Then show that to us? Maybe I'm wrong in remembering the 2005 opponents were better offenses than 2004. Please disprove my belief.

I'd be stunned if the offenses we faced in 06 weren't much better than 05.

I recall Gregg Williams really playing up big towards the end of the season that the Skins where playing some of the top offenses in the NFL and used that as one of his key explanations for their poor defensive season.