What do some of you not understand?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

That's not what he meant. Danny was simply saying that hindsight is 20/20 and that he wanted to draft him (S. Moss) but he "pays people" to do that job. That confirms, in my mind, that he has confidence in the people he hired to do the job of evaluating talent and getting the right players here. Sure we have been a failing franchise for the most part, but Gibbs was hired to right the ship and I'm confident, as Danny is, that this year will be a winning season. No regret in his voice with that comment :2cents:

You both said the same thing lol :laugh:

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I've challenged Art to provide some evidence, however flimsy, to support your unsupportable position. He's failed. Can you do it? Can you cite one single instance that proves that Gibbs has final authority?

Um...that's pretty black & white there. MADD doesn't think Gibbs have final authority, but that Snyder does. I'm not sure how anyone could reach any other conclusion.

[KingGibbs]

IMO Snyder does have some influence in what players come here. Anybody who owns a company, team, organization, etc. is going to be involved in the selection, hiring, marketing or purchasing process, especially when it involves millions of dollars.

You're job as an employee is to get maximum returns in your employers investment. I'm pretty certain when Joe and the rest of the coaching staff are discussing personell moves with Cerratto he runs it by Snyder to get an idea of how he feels about that particular player and then relays his reaction back to Joe and company and they take it from there.

Snyder is extremely aggressive by nature and it's what has made him a billionaire and there's no way IMO he's just going to just put his Han**** on these seven figure checks w/out having some input in that transaction.

[MRMADD]

Where did you learn to read?

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3687742&postcount=89

What's Madd say here? That it's not Gibbs making the decisions, but, Snyder and Vinny, with Gibbs saying it's him. He spells it out for you. And, look at the thread we're in. This has ALWAYS been about who's making the FINAL decisions on personnel moves for the team. And Madd has LONG stated it's not Joe Gibbs. He's only found the position that Snyder has an opinion but doesn't make decisions tonight.

I hope everyone actually reads those links. They'll see the truth: I've been very consistent, and you're very quickly trying to change your position because you know you're wrong.

You can't have it both ways, Art. You're saying, "Snyder is not involved in football decisions." And then in the same breath you're saying he is "involved in the process of making decisions." Well, which one is it? Is he involved or not involved?

The truth is clear: he is involved. I've said that for years. You've denied it -- vehemently -- for years. Everyone knows it.

[jimster]

Art 2, MRMADD 0.

Art 4,687,331 MRMADD 0

[MRMADD]

Art 4,687,331 MRMADD 0

You guys are like the last few holdouts who still think OJ is innocent. Bottom-line: Snyder is involved in football decision-making. Game, set, match to me. Score it anyway you want.

[jimster]

You guys are like the last few holdouts who still think OJ is innocent. Bottom-line: Snyder is involved in football decision-making. Game, set, match to me. Score it anyway you want.

never he said he wasn't INVOLVED. -

Twist it any way you want.

[MRMADD]

never he said he wasn't INVOLVED. -

Twist it any way you want.

He said, and I quote, "Snyder is not involved in football decisions." And he still says it.

Twist that anyway you like. You guys are unreal. When proven absolutely, indisputably wrong, you lie.

[fansince62]

Thought I would post it. Nice catch. I had kinda missed that one earlier.

Jason

and, of course, everything put out for public consumption is the unvarnished truth! just ask the government!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SWFLSkins]

Madd you don't know how to be wrong even when your right about being wrong, and rightfully so you should be wrong about being right but sometimes being right is just a mistake you had previously made about being right about being wrong. Right? :paranoid:

HTTR

__________________________________________________________

. . . . . LEFT TURN CLYDE!

[SWFLSkins]

I'm not trying to get deeply involved here, but I think it is important to point out that Snyder said, in his own words, that his biggest regret from the past was not drafting Sanatana Moss. Obviously in hindsight, it is an understandable regret, but it also implies that he regrets not overriding the decision of the person he was paying to make that decision.

_________________________________________________________-

That brings into question Snyder's faith is Joe Gibbs, hmmm....

I really can't see you supporting the position that Snyder had as much faith in Schott, Spurrier and especially Turner. And obviously Snyder let Schott make the final call on that pick. And the rest as they say is a resume.

[Art]

Madd,

No one ever said Snyder had NO involvement in the football team. You consistently state -- did it even in the WP article by Jason -- that Gibbs doesn't have the final authority on decision making. You continue to believe it. And you continue to suggest that anyone who doesn't agree is saying Snyder is living in Alaska fishing and taunting them for thinking it. The only person who has an unsupportable position is you. You think Snyder is making decisions and forcing many on Gibbs and that Gibbs is saying he's making them solely because he's a "stand up guy".

Decisions come down to one guy. That's Gibbs. Gibbs makes them. Sometimes well, sometimes poorly. That's reality. Snyder isn't involved in making the decisions. He IS involved in providing a role in the process. Obviously and fortunately.

[fansince62]

What other decisions are there to be made? Either a guy makes a decision or he doesn't. There isn't any middle ground. Yes, Snyder has some input into the process, but Snyder isn't the one making decisions on personnel. It is Gibbs who makes the call on what players he wants.

MRMADD has suggested that Snyder is more involved in decisionmaking. For example, he has claimed that Snyder made the decision to trade for Duckett, even tho he has no evidence to back that up. (I'd find the post, but the search function sucks on this board.)

I don't think anyone ever disagreed that Snyder was involved in football decisions. It was always the degree of his involvement that was argued. From all empirical data we have, if Snyder has an influence in personnel decisions, it seems to be minimal. Most decisions seem to come from the coaching staff, as JLC's season-ending article pointed out. Snyder is barely mentioned in that article.

Jason

let's try to draw an analogue here: the President has a cabinet; he has a bureaucracy; he delegates decision making authorities.

- he selects the people who make the decisions

- presumably he selects these people on the basis of some philosophy/vision/set of goals that ensures they execute his will to carry out this philosophy/vision/set of goals

Who, in this arrangement, is ultimately accountable? The person who hires and delegates or the decision-maker at whatever rung in the organization this person happens to be stationed at? Where, in our society, do stock-holders, voters, etc., generally and ultimately direct their attention?

1) I can agree with your notion that Gibbs and others make decisions. So what? This has short-term interest only. It may even align with your strategic goal of deflecting criticism of what happens on the field to the coaches....again...so what. This is all transient. There is only one constant in this equation.

2) In the final analysis, it is the person who holds the power who is the key. And the power in this instance has been and always will be vested in the owner.

Now, before Art jumps into his elevating "moron/idiot" spitballing that has become so endearing to so many of us lesser lights........I happen to support Snyder....more for reasons other than football. It's his team. He does seem to have the right intentions. He is trying to support his coaches. He makes a lot of cash (his job as a businessman). He doesn't incessantly lecture us - in fact, he is noticibly and thankfully limitted in his public persona.

It's nice to see you, Jason, resorting to "what we know from the facts" arguments rather than the "you don't know what the inner sanctum is thinking" that so often declaratively asserts what remains to be proven. I can buy that.

What I don't buy is the notion being pushed, implicitly, about long-term accountability for this franchise and everything that entails. Since we will never agree on this...it inevitably winnows down to a value system.......have a nice day!.....

[flexxskins]

OMG, what is all the dialog for? Isn't it obvious that some people just say things different from the majority to get a reaction, (preferably from a higher up...say a mod?)

Snyder, along with others obviously have input when it comes to personell decisions and Gibbs makes the final decision.

What the hell is so hard to understand about that? Some people just talk out the side of their neck sometimes... I swear.

[MRMADD]

Madd,

No one ever said Snyder had NO involvement in the football team.

Actually, you did. You said, and I quote, "Snyder is not involved in football decisions." Then you said, "Dan Snyder is not, and has not been for some time, involved in the football decision making with a period."

Both of those statements are laughably false.

[jimster]

He said, and I quote, "Snyder is not involved in football decisions." And he still says it.

Twist that anyway you like. You guys are unreal. When proven absolutely, indisputably wrong, you lie.

lie?

Dan Snyder is not, and has not been for some time, involved in the football decision making with a period. He HAS, all along, since he spoke here, since Vinny did and the rest, been involved in the PROCESS by which decisions are made,

I don't see where he has lied. I do see where you take things out of context and twist them.

[Art]

OMG, what is all the dialog for? Isn't it obvious that some people just say things different from the majority to get a reaction, (Preferably from a higher up...say a mod?)

Synder, along with others obviously have input when it comes to personell decisions and Gibbs makes the final decision.

What the hell is so hard to understand about that? Some people just talk out the side of their neck sometimes... I swear.

Right.

And Madd continues to say Snyder makes final decisions and that Gibbs doesn't. And, every time he says this, and gets credited for saying it, he slinks back into, "No, no, I said he's involved in decision making and he is." Madd has the poor position of attempting to back up reams of statements that Snyder is the ultimate authority, foisting moves on poor Gibbs, who grins and bears it because he's a good guy against others who disagree. And, each time he's confronted, he suggests because everyone knows Snyder has a role in the operation of the team, that it proves Snyder isn't doing nothing, and so he's right. When, of course, no one has ever said otherwise.

Joe Gibbs makes the decisions here. Period. End of story. Snyder, as with every other person in the organization, has input throughout the process and play key roles. Snyder has found a role that allows him involvement without getting in the way of his football people as he got in Norv's way -- though, to be fair, he probably needed to get in Norv's way .

It's a very simple thing. Madd denies that Gibbs has the authority when all is said and done. And he can't figure out a way to make that fly, so he suggests anyone saying it is saying Snyder's asleep and that's wrong -- and it is -- so he's right.

[Art]

Actually, you did. You said, and I quote, "Snyder is not involved in football decisions." Then you said, "Dan Snyder is not, and has not been for some time, involved in the football decision making with a period."

Both of those statements are laughably false.

No, Madd. I rejecting your theory that Snyder is the one making decisions, on his own, often over the unstated rejection of Gibbs, I have told you that's not the case. And, indeed, Snyder is not involved in the football decision making. He is involved in how the football decisions are made. Gibbs makes the decisions. Snyder has a part of each decision -- and sometimes a very important part.

Snyder doesn't sit in on player meetings to come up with a grade for the guys the team wants. He doesn't decide who is the right guy. Who's the wrong guy. He has nothing to do with any of that. He is the enabler for his people when they come to him with a list of priorities and they work out a game plan for how to get those accomplished. He's, importantly, the guy who makes such things occur for his people, as Gibbs repeatedly thanked him for.

You have said, repeatedly, in this thread, others yesterday and others throughout time that Gibbs does not have the final decision making authority. You're incorrect. Please when you say, "Yeah, I know that," you can then allow us to go to the topic everyone else has always known. Though Gibbs leads, he does so by building consensus and including all people in the decisions that are made. It's how Gibbs works.

[MRMADD]

Right.

And Madd continues to say Snyder makes final decisions and that Gibbs doesn't. And, every time he says this, and gets credited for saying it, he slinks back into, "No, no, I said he's involved in decision making and he is."

It's simple, really. I've long maintained that Snyder has meddled in football decisions ever since he bought the team. His meddling has been uniformly disastrous for the team.

You maintain that when he hired Joe Gibbs, Snyder stepped back and has no involvement in football decisions. That's been proven wrong.

So now you acknowledge that I'm right that Snyder is involved in football decisions, but it doesn't matter because Saint Joe has the final authority and can override any stupid fantasy football idea that comes out of the owner's box.

Two problems with that: (1) we've never seen any evidence that Joe can actually override Snyder, and (2) you also seem to believe that Danny is well qualified to make football decisions.

You might want to spend some time getting your story straight before you keep digging this hole.

[MRMADD]

And, indeed, Snyder is not involved in the football decision making. He is involved in how the football decisions are made. Gibbs makes the decisions. Snyder has a part of each decision -- and sometimes a very important part..

I should make this my new signature line. Pure comedy. You don't recognize how you've had to dance on the head of a pin to reconcile these two opposing views?

It's like saying, "I have final authority over all decisions in my house. My wife just provides input into the process. If I want to buy a new car, I go to her and ask her if I can have one. She helps me decide if I really want one. She sets the budget and picks the car. She helps me choose the color and advises me on the value of the minivan over the Ferrari. But I get to go pick it up. I am the ultimate decision-making authority!"

Don't worry, Art. I'm laughing with you, not at you. Mostly.

[flexxskins]

It's simple, really. I've long maintained that Snyder has meddled in football decisions ever since he bought the team. His meddling has been uniformly disastrous for the team.

You maintain that when he hired Joe Gibbs, Snyder stepped back and has no involvement in football decisions. That's been proven wrong.

So now you acknowledge that I'm right that Snyder is involved in football decisions, but it doesn't matter because Saint Joe has the final authority and can override any stupid fantasy football idea that comes out of the owner's box.

Two problems with that: (1) we've never seen any evidence that Joe can actually override Snyder, and (2) you also seem to believe that Danny is well qualified to make football decisions.

You might want to spend some time getting your story straight before you keep digging this hole.

I think that we would all agree that football is a buisness. So, what owner of a buisness in his right mind would not be involved in his teams/companies decision making to an extent?

Also, I love the way that you change words like "involved" into "meddling" to make your argument a tad stronger. :applause:

[Dan T.]

Here is my wish. That Dan Snyder stay out of the process of football-related decisions. To NOT be, as Art so torturously puts it, "involved in providing a role in the process."

I believe Joe Gibbs has the final say on football decisions. I also believe that he feels obliged to listen to and consider Daniel Snyder's football-related input when offered. I don't believe Daniel Snyder is qualified to offer that input.

Stay out of the draft room, Mr. Snyder. Instead, go to the library and read all you can about Jack Kent Cooke. Learn to have fun with your toy without mucking it up.

[Rocky21]

Originally Posted by The Danny

But, at the end of the day I do let other people have their say and pull the trigger, because that is what you pay people to do.

Sayin' it and Doin' it are two different things.

[da#1skinsfan]

Dude.

I dont care what was said. The only contribution on this board Ive ever seen from you is hating Snyder and blaming him for the direction of this franchise.

You have painted the picture that Snyder is this evil tyrant that sits atop his throne and makes decisions. Everything that exists in reality has shown otherwise, including the comments made in that press conference.

I dont care who said what. Ive read the threads, thats been your attitude. Snyder is evil, he ruined the francihse, he makes the decisions, he is to blame.

Many of us have tried to reason with you forever that there is PLENTY of blame to go around, not just Snyder. You still always revert back to your evil Dan Snyder argument.

Now you've found a loophole where instead of referencing the actual argument and the actual topic of discussion, you are arguing semantics with someone (OM, whoever) that is playing right into it unfortunately.

You're wrong. Snyder is not an evil tyrant making final decisions. There is plenty of blame to go around. Learn it, live it, love it. Its reality.

[jimster]

Also, I love the way that you change words like "involved" into "meddling" to make your argument a tad stronger. :applause:

Bingo.