What do some of you not understand?

[Art]

I should make this my new signature line. Pure comedy. You don't recognize how you've had to dance on the head of a pin to reconcile these two opposing views?

It's like saying, "I have final authority over all decisions in my house. My wife just provides input into the process. If I want to buy a new car, I go to her and ask her if I can have one. She helps me decide if I really want one. She sets the budget and picks the car. She helps me choose the color and advises me on the value of the minivan over the Ferrari. But I get to go pick it up. I am the ultimate decision-making authority!"

Don't worry, Art. I'm laughing with you, not at you. Mostly.

Madd,

Given they are not opposing views, I'd appreciate you wearing the slogan as a shameful representation of your continued unwillingness to be anything other than obtuse. Being part of the process that includes everyone and being the decision maker are two different things, Madd. I know that. You don't seem to. Why?

[fansince62]

Dude.

I dont care what was said. The only contribution on this board Ive ever seen from you is hating Snyder and blaming him for the direction of this franchise.

You have painted the picture that Snyder is this evil tyrant that sits atop his throne and makes decisions. Everything that exists in reality has shown otherwise, including the comments made in that press conference.

I dont care who said what. Ive read the threads, thats been your attitude. Snyder is evil, he ruined the francihse, he makes the decisions, he is to blame.

Many of us have tried to reason with you forever that there is PLENTY of blame to go around, not just Snyder. You still always revert back to your evil Dan Snyder argument.

Now you've found a loophole where instead of referencing the actual argument and the actual topic of discussion, you are arguing semantics with someone (OM, whoever) that is playing right into it unfortunately.

You're wrong. Snyder is not an evil tyrant making final decisions. There is plenty of blame to go around. Learn it, live it, love it. Its reality.

this is good.

could you now allocate some of the blame so we can better understand how you see things?

[flexxskins]

Madd,

Given they are not opposing views, I'd appreciate you wearing the slogan as a shameful representation of your continued unwillingness to be anything other than obtuse. Being part of the process that includes everyone and being the decision maker are two different things, Madd. I know that. You don't seem to. Why?

He does. But why concede? There is no fun in that.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

none of us will ever know what exactly goes on behind closed doors between gibbs snyder and the gimp, but man, snyder definitely looks like an evil businessman. i wouldnt want him for a boss.

[Art]

Here is my wish. That Dan Snyder stay out of the process of football-related decisions. To NOT be, as Art so torturously puts it, "involved in providing a role in the process."

I believe Joe Gibbs has the final say on football decisions. I also believe that he feels obliged to listen to and consider Daniel Snyder's football-related input when offered. I don't believe Daniel Snyder is qualified to offer that input.

Stay out of the draft room, Mr. Snyder. Instead, go to the library and read all you can about Jack Kent Cooke. Learn to have fun with your toy without mucking it up.

As has been very clear, Snyder doesn't actually have a role in assigning the grade the organization puts on players. Snyder is involved later in the process when he's presented data that is, presumably, well argued, thought out and based on a set criteria. His part is signing off on that which he's asked to provide. Snyder's been very good in the role he plays. He gets the priorities handed to him by the people who came up with them, and he does so, usually, by spending more of his money than was allocated initially for each thing the team tries.

When Snyder quips that he signs the checks, he's essentially saying, he's frequently approached and asked for things that require his involvement -- i.e. money. And he makes that happen. Snyder is a business man. He's got a ton of oars in the water with his work in his venture capital (Cruise), Great America, Red Zebra and Johnny Rockets. He's clearly a very qualified businessman who likely ultimately approves, through funding, the priorities set at each of his businesses by the men entrusted to run them.

For the Redskins football side, that's Joe Gibbs.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Dude.

I dont care what was said. The only contribution on this board Ive ever seen from you is hating Snyder and blaming him for the direction of this franchise.

You have painted the picture that Snyder is this evil tyrant that sits atop his throne and makes decisions. Everything that exists in reality has shown otherwise, including the comments made in that press conference.

I dont care who said what. Ive read the threads, thats been your attitude. Snyder is evil, he ruined the francihse, he makes the decisions, he is to blame.

Many of us have tried to reason with you forever that there is PLENTY of blame to go around, not just Snyder. You still always revert back to your evil Dan Snyder argument.

Now you've found a loophole where instead of referencing the actual argument and the actual topic of discussion, you are arguing semantics with someone (OM, whoever) that is playing right into it unfortunately.

You're wrong. Snyder is not an evil tyrant making final decisions. There is plenty of blame to go around. Learn it, live it, love it. Its reality.

That's exactly right, and is the heart of this whole issue.

MADD insists that every flawed decision, every loss, every mistake is Snyder's fault and he absolves Gibbs of all of it. He claims Snyder makes every decision, and that Gibbs is just a figurehead valiantly falling on his sword for every foolish move that Snyder makies. And anyone who points out this is wrong is merely a "Snyder apologist".

To back up this claim, when shown to be wrong, he pretends that everyone who says "Gibbs makes the final decision" is somehow saying "Snyder is lying on a beach somewhere completely unaware of what the team is doing".

[MRMADD]

Madd,

Given they are not opposing views, I'd appreciate you wearing the slogan as a shameful representation of your continued unwillingness to be anything other than obtuse. Being part of the process that includes everyone and being the decision maker are two different things, Madd. I know that. You don't seem to. Why?

You've said that Snyder is NOT involved in football decisions. And you've said that Snyder IS involved in football decisions. But you think those aren't opposing views?

The depths to which you'll sink to avoid recognizing the obvious is hilarious.

[MRMADD]

Dude.

You lost me at "dude".

[TheLongshot]

let's try to draw an analogue here: the President has a cabinet; he has a bureaucracy; he delegates decision making authorities.

- he selects the people who make the decisions

- presumably he selects these people on the basis of some philosophy/vision/set of goals that ensures they execute his will to carry out this philosophy/vision/set of goals

Who, in this arrangement, is ultimately accountable? The person who hires and delegates or the decision-maker at whatever rung in the organization this person happens to be stationed at? Where, in our society, do stock-holders, voters, etc., generally and ultimately direct their attention?

Your analogue is pretty weak. The President is an elected official who is accountable to the people who voted for him. The Redskins, last I checked, is not a public corporation. While Snyder does have a big influence of the philosophy of the team, he doesn't have accountability to anyone because he's the owner. I mean, he could act like Hugh Culverhouse and there isn't much we could do about it.

It's nice to see you, Jason, resorting to "what we know from the facts" arguments rather than the "you don't know what the inner sanctum is thinking" that so often declaratively asserts what remains to be proven. I can buy that.

Well, when we have facts, we can use them. Problem is, for a lot of things, we don't have a whole lot of facts and all we can do is speculate. Don't mistake speculation for facts. A lot of people do on this board.

What I don't buy is the notion being pushed, implicitly, about long-term accountability for this franchise and everything that entails. Since we will never agree on this...it inevitably winnows down to a value system.......have a nice day!.....

I'm not quite sure what it is that you don't think we agree on. Yes, Gibbs isn't going to be here forever and things can change, and the owner is going to be a constant figure in all of this. At the same time, you mostly like the owner's makeup as far as his effort in trying to get a winner, which I also agree with. Gibbs only has the power he is given by the owner.

But, the argument here is that the owner has given him the final say, and while he can change that, there is no evidence that he has done that.

So, what is your point?

Jason

[Cdowwe]

In the end, its good to know Gibbs is there.

[Mr. Blitz]

Let's just look at facts. The Redskins were a great team for many years. Thank God I was able to enjoy the "glory" years. So... what happened to this team? JKC died..then the messy legal crap...which in turn led to the sale of the team. Okay... Danny finally got the team. He has added a ton of players (some good...some bad)... a high turnover at head coach. Now we have one of the greatest head coaches of all time (HOF coach) and still .... we look like crap!! So... what element has not changed since the Danny has owned the team?? I know, I know... it is the same old. same old right???? But I am going to say it again... Danny once again defended the FO.... C'mon does he think we are that stupid??? It has to be the lack of a QUALITY GM. A GM with final say and who has a PLAN for building a franchise into a quality team. He has spent all of his money on players and coaches....but doesn't want to believe he needs a top notch personnel guy. Until he changes the FO.... the team that we have known since Danny has owned it is well....... it is what it is. A ship lost at sea.

:2cents:

[Art]

You've said that Snyder is NOT involved in football decisions. And you've said that Snyder IS involved in football decisions. But you think those aren't opposing views?

The depths to which you'll sink to avoid recognizing the obvious is hilarious.

And, Madd, honest, this is THE last time I'll answer the same thing. That means I won't write this again in reply to something you just wrote. Yes, I've said Snyder is not involved in football decisions WITH A PERIOD in reply to your repeated statements that Gibbs is not the decision maker. In every case you've rejected the shared reality we know that Gibbs has final authority on all football related moves, I've told you the assignment that Snyder is really making the decisions -- now, suddenly and carefully crafted to read, "involved" in making decisions -- is false. But, I've told you he has involvement in the whole of the process both because he has a role in the execution AND because he has monetary authority that requires his sign off.

These are not contradictory at all. Rejecting your assertion that Gibbs isn't the decision maker exists in all cases you make that case. And each time someone does, you dance your little footsies over to the, "Well, Snyder is involved, therefore I'm right," and that was never the conversation we were all having. We were always discussing who makes the decisions, which is Gibbs. I even tried to teach you that everyone is part of that process.

You'll stop, right now, falsely characterizing what I've said. You know where I'll let you go and you know where I won't. I'm all for the conversation. I'm not for a person who has gotten himself in a bind being unwilling to step off the ledge. That's where you are brother.

Step away from it and move on.

Your assertions that Snyder makes the decisions has been rejected -- apparently even by you without saying it. Say it, then move on to the next topic and if it is that Snyder has a role in the process, then I agree because I've always said that.

[MRMADD]

Yes, I've said Snyder is not involved in football decisions ...We were always discussing who makes the decisions, which is Gibbs. I even tried to teach you that everyone is part of that process.

You'll stop, right now, falsely characterizing what I've said.

Here we go again. Lame veiled threats, Art? You think that's going to work? You're tying a pretty pink bow around a turd here.

The reality of this thread: you're the one make false characterizations. I have been entirely consistent, and you have not. I quoted you accurately ("Snyder is not involved in football decisions."). I've been clear: Danny has been meddling since the day he arrived, and he didn't stop when Joe got here.

You said he did. When faced with reality, you force yourself into dizzying logical mazes where Snyder is not involved except that he is involved. Further, you're pretending that Snyder's involvement is limited to just providing a little advice during the decision-making process, when Gibbs made it clear that he and Snyder will be creating their draft plan together. I think you're right to give up.

[Dan T.]

Here we go again. Lame veiled threats, Art? . . .

Veiled? Maybe. Lame? Probably not. I've seen him ban a guy on draft day for complaining about the Redskins taking a fullback with a fourth round draft pick.

[MRMADD]

Veiled? Maybe. Lame? Probably not. I've seen him ban a guy on draft day for complaining about the Redskins taking a fullback with a fourth round draft pick.

Hell, I got banned just for calling Manuel White a fullback. Apparently he was an H-back. Until we stopped having H-backs. Then he went back to being a fullback.

I'm still waiting for my apology.

[da#1skinsfan]

You lost me at "dude".

Im not surprised, frankly.

Go ahead and argue with those that stoop to your level to play ball with you. I've made my point, its clear. That's all.

To back up this claim, when shown to be wrong, he pretends that everyone who says "Gibbs makes the final decision" is somehow saying "Snyder is lying on a beach somewhere completely unaware of what the team is doing".

Well said. And this is where we continue to sit with the discussion, and I dont think it will ever escalate to anything reasonable since then our buddy Madd would have no point to continue. And we all know if you can't argue with people you dont know on a messageboard, what else in life is there?

[Art]

No, Dan, you haven't.

You have seen me ban a guy for calling a guy who had "FB" listed on his draft profile a fullback when the organization had stated he was being throught of as an h-back and complaints that the organization which doesn't use a fullback shouldn't be drafting them were ridiculous, as the organization which doesn't use a fullback DIDN'T draft any, but did draft H-back prospects, which, sadly, aren't listed on any draft prospect form.

And, I gave people full room to allow that just because some college draft profile read a guy was a fullback, if the team told you they viewed him as an H-Back, perhaps that's what they were trying to fill, but, continued rejection of reality would lead to an end point. And it will in all cases. Including you, if you ever lie again.

Madd,

These aren't veiled threats.

I'm asking you to respect me enough not to make me keep answering the same statements over and over and if you won't, I will relieve you of the lack of respect. I have respected you enough to carry this conversation on for MONTHS. I am disturbed you now have altered what that conversation has been and was.

You have long stated Gibbs isn't the decision maker at the end of the chain here. You've outright said it and anyone who says he is, you have ridiculed. And, each time you have, I've helped ridicule you back. This is all fun. Now that you realize you can't keep saying it -- though, amusingly YOU DID LAST NIGHT in another thread -- you have decided to say you said Snyder has always "meddled" in decisions and, in fact, he has not. He has always been part of the process Gibbs put in place. He clearly has always been that. No one has ever denied it.

You have denied that Gibbs isn't the guy who makes the decisions, but Snyder is, often over Gibbs' objections even. Now, for the first time, answer very clearly, is Gibbs the man who ultimately makes the decisions, or, does someone else ultimately make them?

Don't need to suggest that Snyder, Vinny, all coaches and, hell, even fans, have a say in all the moves that are made. We know all have a say and a part. But, "I think...." something in conversation is not, "Do this...." and that's what you have perpetually painted Snyder as doing. Reject that and move on. But, I can't let you pretend you weren't always doing this. Can I?

[Art]

Hell, I got banned just for calling Manuel White a fullback. Apparently he was an H-back. Until we stopped having H-backs. Then he went back to being a fullback.

I'm still waiting for my apology.

White played H-back for us chief. And, you're done.

[Taylor 36]

It's simple, really. I've long maintained that Snyder has meddled in football decisions ever since he bought the team. His meddling has been uniformly disastrous for the team.

You maintain that when he hired Joe Gibbs, Snyder stepped back and has no involvement in football decisions. That's been proven wrong.

So now you acknowledge that I'm right that Snyder is involved in football decisions, but it doesn't matter because Saint Joe has the final authority and can override any stupid fantasy football idea that comes out of the owner's box.

Two problems with that: (1) we've never seen any evidence that Joe can actually override Snyder, and (2) you also seem to believe that Danny is well qualified to make football decisions.

You might want to spend some time getting your story straight before you keep digging this hole.

I hate to jump into the fray, but it is amazing to me how you are using this article to "prove" you are right, yet this very article also offers "evidence" of how you are wrong.

First, you wrote above:

(1) we've never seen any evidence that Joe can actually override Snyder.

The problem here as that we've never seen evidence that he can't. We aren't privy to all of the closed door actions and going ons at Redskins Park. Therefore, your argument in this case in nullified.

Second, you wrote:

2) you also seem to believe that Danny is well qualified to make football decisions.

Danny was the one who saw the value in Moss over 50/50. Danny stepped back and let the guy he "pays to do the job" do the job, and look where it got us. I would say that this shows Danny's ability to scout players better than one of the winningest coaches in NFL history, even if only once. Of course, yet again, we do not know of other prospects that Danny has liked better than his coaches, because he doesn't override them.

Case in point, do you really think Snyder wanted all of those Florida QB's here when Spurrier came???

[project myu]

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128654&page=4&pp=15

LOL!!!!

The whole thread is great.

I'm glad we filled our positions of need so well..

..oh wait..

[Dan T.]

No, Dan, you haven't.

You have seen me ban a guy for calling a guy who had "FB" listed on his draft profile a fullback when the organization had stated he was being throught of as an h-back and complaints that the organization which doesn't use a fullback shouldn't be drafting them were ridiculous, as the organization which doesn't use a fullback DIDN'T draft any, but did draft H-back prospects, which, sadly, aren't listed on any draft prospect form.

And, I gave people full room to allow that just because some college draft profile read a guy was a fullback, if the team told you they viewed him as an H-Back, perhaps that's what they were trying to fill, but, continued rejection of reality would lead to an end point. And it will in all cases. Including you, if you ever lie again.

Oh yeah, that was it. . .You banned the guy for calling him a fullback instead of H-back. What's really funny is I didn't realize it was actually MrMadd who was involved in that little tete-a-tete back then!

And funnier still is that now you're threatening to ban me if I ever "lie" again. Funny because you actually characterized that as a "lie". Not funny is the knowledge that you are actually both capable of and willing to exercise that arbitrary power as moderator over something so trivial. The ultimate Internet bully.

[Art]

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128654&page=4&pp=15

LOL!!!!

The whole thread is great.

I'm glad we filled our positions of need so well..

..oh wait..

Oh wait? We went 10-6?

[Monte51Coleman]

And, here's your deal WB.

You asked for quotes where it was acknowledged Snyder is part of the organization and talks to Gibbs about the players the team signs. You were provided them. Before you say again I've changed my view, you answer each one I provided. You don't get a free pass to ask for something, GET it, then ignore it and say the same dumb ****.

Since when?

[project myu]

Oh wait? We went 10-6?

We didn't go 10-6 because of Broughton and White. The next year we went 5-11, the biggest reason being our crappy defense. And the biggest reason for our crappy defense was our crappy line.

Hmm.

:point2sky

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

people got banned regarding manuel white? man i wish id been posting here then haha.