ESPN - Reeling Redskins awash in troubles

[Rolling Thunder]

The article, while depressing, makes the most sense in explaining this season. I have read comments from fans (and Greg Williams for that matter) saying that the problem with the defense is the amount of injuries we have had this year. How is it that for the first two years, GW would be quoted all the time saying that we "don't have any starters" and everyone has to step up when another player goes down? Now it's nothing but excuses when things are going bad.

Honestly, when you see the coverages and the blitzing and the regression of some players, is it all just injuries and a bad players? I get the feeling that it goes deeper and that there is some serious flaws in the coaching, especially on the D.

:anon:

[joe_gibbs_fan]

I'm surprised no one believes the source could have come from a coach or even Snyder. If Im Dan Snyder, this story certainly makes it easier to fire Williams at the end of the season.

What I do know is that Greg Williams was a failure in Buffalo. You have to wonder if he had time to learn from his mistakes - Gibbs hired him almost immediately. Williams early success probably went to his head. The fact that he called our offense "High School" bothers me. Instead of being supportive he was abrasive and arrogant. Wheres the team unity that Gibbs always preaches about? I always felt Williams disdain for our offense was a main reason Gibbs hired Al Saunders. In light of this article, I feel that I was on the money.

Gibbs has always said its about the players, not scheme. Well, Williams believes the opposite. Thats why he failed in Buffalo and he'll never become a good headcoach. He's fat and happy with that guaranteed money. Its sickening.

Joe needs to go back to the basics and dump these high paid "geniuses". Saunders and Williams are overrated losers. Neither won where they were before. Both choked as HC's. Both believe they are better and more important than they are. Ugh...

[Tulane Skins Fan]

first off gregg williams is arrogant, and always has been. second of all, i thought we were all together on this season.

**** gregg williams

gibbs needs to wake up too and start being a coach and not a goddamn president

[Tulane Skins Fan]

and i humbly ask the mods again - please remove the "now new threads" restriction from my screen name. not once have i ever said anything on here to offend anyone.

its not about making offending threads, its about starting too many threads. its about feeling like you have to start a new thread about this topic when there is a thread already there. all you have to do is post in this thread, not start a new one

[The Wicked Wop]

um, maybe its just me, but it sounds like this player should be wearing a skirt. this quote was a red flag for me:

"And Gregg Williams says all the time, it's not my money. If Gregg was the one writing the checks, I don't know if he'd handle it that way. But he says it in meetings. He gives us speeches about, 'If you don't know what to do, you're going to be standing next to me on the sideline, I don't give a f---. That's where you're going to be. I need to be able to trust you. Hey, it's not my money. I don't care how much you make, I don't care who you are, I'm not the one writing the check, you need to know your assignments, know what to do.' That's what Gregg says. I wonder how Snyder would feel if he heard that one."

Is something wrong with this? I dont see this quote as arrogant on the part of williams but maybe the player who thinks they can play like **** with no consequence of being replaced by someone who can handle it. Parcells does the same thing all time. You start making mistakes and he is in your face and you are on the sidelines. Look at their D now.

I was waiting for someone to say it, it only took to page 17. I completely agree, this isn't arrogance, this is a coach saying you can have the highest salary on the team......but you still can be riding the bench.

Also people do need to realize that we had some pretty good defenses the past few years......and sometimes you have an off year. This clearly is an off year. I think some is attributal to the coaches, but some is to the players as well. Now maybe it is the fact that Williams drove away talent, which explains where we stand....I think there is some truth to that, but I also see players who played well for us last year getting torn a new one game in and game out. Scheme doesn't keep you from fighting off blocks and making plays. Game in and game out this year our D-line is getting pushed back 4 yards before a guy lays a hand on the RB. Game in and game out other teams are blowing huge holes in our D-line allowing RB like Cadillac Williams to look great when they've done crap all year.

The fact is our current woes are everyones fault. One article can not pin the entire blame on one coach simply because he is arrogant. Maybe it is part of the problem, but in a team game like football, there is no way its the only problem.

[Neophyte]

Its sad, hell, beyond sad to me that fans are almost universally inclined to believe every damn negative horrible thing written about our coaching staff.

I don't believe everything but when the shoe fits...

As with most things the press write about, the truth is always far more complex than anything that can be spewed in a 2 page article.

Like my father says, "there are three sides to every story....theirs, yours and the truth which is usually somewhere in the middle."

But hey, let the blame game begin.

Amen. For the money ALL of these men are making, players and coaches, you bet your ass I am laying some blame. The defensive side of the ball has totally fallen apart since the game in Seattle last Jan and you can lay all that blame on injuries. If we get real honest for a minute and look beyond that the defense was not as good last year as it was the year before and once again you really can't blame injuries.

Sorry but I think most of us would have been fired from our every day job for this sort of performance and see no reason to cut these guys slack just because this is football and not sales or manufacturing.

You guys crack me up. All I hear day after day is that we need continuity. That is, until the next day, when you all cry for someones head on a stick.

You misunderstand, at least you do me. I am a believer in continuity. I want it...at least right up to the point that I don't think it is working anymore which I admit is often a tough thing to recognize correctly. Let us forget this article for a moment since you seem to completely discount it. I know a couple of things. One - the defense has not done the job this year in any game. Not once. Two - week after week I watch pretty much the same 11 guys line up in the same positions and NOT do the job. There have been a couple of changes but nothing substantive. Three - I see lots of guys who were deemed "replacable" by Williams playing better other places then the guys he has replaced them with. How many here will would not love to have Walt Harris back as the nickleback? Or Pierce back as our MLB with Marshall on the weak side? Or Clark back playing with Taylor at the safty positions? And that is just three.

Do I want continuity? Yes! Do I think there need to be some repercussions for the way the defense is not showing up? Yes, again. Please, do not confuse what I want.

And we might talk about continuity in player personel while we are at it. Continuity is not just about coaches, systems and philosophies. Personel is a large part of that we don't have that.

The players need to shut their millionaire ****ing yaps and start listening to their 'arrogant' coaches. If/when they start doing that, we might actually start winning some ****ing games.

It might help if the arrogant coaches started putting our players in a position to win. It might help if the arrogant coaches started treating the players with a bit of respect and do some of their own listening. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that at this point just repeating that "the system works" is enough. The "system" is not working and it is up to the coaches to figure out why. They hand picked these players, now they have to figure out how to get them to work together. And they better figure it out fast.

Players play and coaches coach but I am not seeing much of either at the moment. However, coaches control WHO plays and what plays are called. Time for some variation. I would have a lot more patience if I saw something new on the field. Something that I could believe was an attempt by this staff to turn it around. Something that indicated to them that they were at least trying to fix the problems. So far that has not happened.

Worse, every year we lose ground after letting go of guys who got the job done the year before. Year One we were 3rd in the league. Then we let go of Pierce and Smoot and we dropped to 9th. The we let go of Clark, Harris and Arrington and we dropped to the bottom. You can tell me it is the players all you want but the these coaches have more control over what players they have than any coaching staff in the league and they picked these guys so if you tell me it is the players then I am going to point to the coaches.

[Aghar]

If this article is only 25% true this organization is in big trouble with its current coaching staff. :doh:

[armada58]

Greg Blache............... Interim Defensive Coordinator

[SonnyRules]

1st article I've seen to date that actually explains what is going on acurrately.

[stwasm]

Tom Friend has LOTS of DC connections, having worked at the Post for a long time, including a stint as the Skins beat reporter. If this was coming from Len Pasquarelli or Peter King, I'd take it with a grain of salt. But, coming from Friend, there has to be some validity to all of this. He even grew up in the DC area as a Redskins fan.

[gmac79d]

The thing that bothers me the most about these articles is the players and coaches who anonymously complain about other players and coaches. There is nothing you could do to lose respect from me quicker than "snitching" to the press. Man up and talk face to face with the people you have a problem with. There aint nothing more sissyfied than doing that ****. This team is beginning to digust me.

[stwasm]

The thing that bothers me the most about these articles is the players and coaches who anonymously complain about other players and coaches. There is nothing you could do to lose respect from me quicker than "snitching" to the press. Man up and talk face to face with the people you have a problem with. There aint nothing more sissyfied than doing that ****. This team is beginning to digust me.

Gmac, it just goes to show you how far this franchise has fallen and the ripple effects of that fall. Frankly, I think people are snitching because they are afraid of consequences, thanks to all the dysfunction there.

[Andre The Giant]

This article makes sense to me. For weeks I've been wondering how practically the same guys on defense could be playing SO much worse than last year. And GW is arrogant as hell in his interviews, every beat reporter comments on it.

However, I still have strong faith in Joe Gibbs. He is a master of leading organizations and getting them to achieve. He's also no dummy and if this article is accurate he will adapt what he's doing to address the problems.

One thing that is definitely happened this year is that the team has lost its toughness from the previous two seasons. This article offers a pretty strong reason for why that might be.

[scruffylookin]

Greg Blache............... Interim Defensive Coordinator

I disagree with this.

If we are going to make a change, the entire staff needs to go. Gregg(enius) Williams' arrogance seems to permeate the entire staff.

Personally, I want to still believe in Gregg(enius) Williams but some changes should be forced upon him.

One secondary coach.

Fire Dale Lindsey.

One little extra note to Gregg(enius), if someone's salary doesn't mean a thing to you, then don't get so involved in the recruiting process okay?

Archuletta is here and we threw a ton of money at him to get him to come here because you wanted him. Maybe you and your big brain should have figured out his limitations as a player before we made him the highest paid safety in the history of game?

[Destino]

What I might suggest is that its not his style that needs replacing, but the players he's coaching in some instances.

Because that has worked so well for us so far. You know maybe now that we need some DL help Gregg will ship out another cornerback forcing us to use a high pick to replace that, instead of filling a need..... again.

BTW - great leaders are proven with results. Until now Gregg Williams looked like a good defensive coordinator but had failed as a coach in Buffalo. Now Gregg seems to have lost the trust and hearts of his players. Perhaps the guy is a defensive master - but his resume as a leader when given all the power to do as he wants, isn't looking so hot.

[GSF]

The players need to shut their millionaire ****ing yaps and start listening to their 'arrogant' coaches. If/when they start doing that, we might actually start winning some ****ing games.

If it was just a couple of guys underacheiving I'd agree with you, but when the whole unit performs so poorly you have to wonder what's going on with the coaching. I don't think the whole unit that performed so well in the past just decided to get lazy.

[Sellersfan]

I am not familiar with the reporter, but even if he is with ESPN, it sounds like he has the respect of some board members and Bram and Dexter.

In order for the reporter to stand by his story, he would have to at least confirm the comments by the anonymous source,(aka Deep Throat).

This reporter has talked to more than 1 player for this article,IMO.

I also believe that Gibbs was given a "heads up" about the article, which may explain why his blow up with the team came when it did. His now infamous team meeting this week seems to come at an odd time. The season is essentially lost now. Why wouldn't this tirade come after the embarrasing losses against division rivals (Eagles,Giants).

I think this story is hitting too close to home, and explains the team meeting this week.

I would love to hear a response to the article from Gibbs after this Sundays game.

[WideReceiver25]

Defense is is so screwed up it's pitiful. Gibbs use to make the ajustments at halftime. What happened?

[Tarhog]

Because that has worked so well for us so far. You know maybe now that we need some DL help Gregg will ship out another cornerback forcing us to use a high pick to replace that, instead of filling a need..... again.

BTW - great leaders are proven with results. Until now Gregg Williams looked like a good defensive coordinator but had failed as a coach in Buffalo. Now Gregg seems to have lost the trust and hearts of his players. Perhaps the guy is a defensive master - but his resume as a leader when given all the power to do as he wants, isn't looking so hot.

You guys are just all lathered up and looking for an easy answer to our defensive woes. Destino - Gregg Williams HAS been successful, highly successful as a defensive coordinator. We're obviously having a horrible year, but as the article itself acknowledged, we started off the year without 2 key secondary players. You also need to look at the fact that the defense doesn't operate in a vacuum - when you're constantly seeing your offense go 3 and out, and aren't getting extended breaks, you're generally going to see your defense suffer. I think its fair to say that letting Ryan Clark go was a mistake. And I do hold Gregg Williams accountable for the defense's performance. But you can't take a coach who's had a top 10 defense (or better) every year prior to this and say he doesn't know what he's doing.

I don't doubt those quotes are legitimate - what comes through in the article is that everyone on this team is frustrated, and likely shocked, that they have fallen so far after a promising playoff year. What I doubt is that the article represents the comprehensive truth about whats going on. And I think its silly to call for a coaches head on a stick because of an article voicing an anonymous player's perspective. I'll bet if you take a little roadtrip around the league and visit all of the other teams that are sucking it up this season, you'd find plenty of players willing to tell who how it is and who's to blame for it.

Ultimately I agree that Williams has got to get his players to play for him. If that means putting the fear of God into them, I'm okay with that. If it means giving them all hugs and sending them chocolate, thats cool too. I don't like what this article represents though - because I think the one sin you can't commit as a Redskin is to take things out of house. If you have a problem with a coach, be a damn man and knock on his door and express it. Or if you don't feel you can do that, take it to the next level. I'm pretty sure Joe Gibbs door is always open. This kind of public cry for help is not going to help this team.

[DIRTBAGS74]

I believe that it is Marcus Washington as in the article it states the problems with the Secondary and the problems wih how the d-line is being asked to play scheme no pinning your ears back and getting after the Qb. But it never says anything about LB's except for the writer himself who says the problems with Pierce leaving and Marshall being a former DB.

Marcus is vocal and he is sick of the defense playing like crap and taking all of the blame for it.

HAIL.

[Neophyte]

I don't like what this article represents though - because I think the one sin you can't commit as a Redskin is to take things out of house. If you have a problem with a coach, be a damn man and knock on his door and express it. Or if you don't feel you can do that, take it to the next level. I'm pretty sure Joe Gibbs door is always open. This kind of public cry for help is not going to help this team.

I don't like what it represents either. On that point we can agree. I just think it is a bit early to lay that at the feet of the players. What if this player who was the anonymous source has tried talking to the defensive coaches already?

Talking to Gibbs might or might not be the answer. Remember, Gibbs gives the defense to his guy on that side of the ball and that guy is Williams. My guess, and this is just a guess, is that Gibbs supports Williams if a player comes to him and sends that player right back to talk to Gregg.

I have had the impression for a while now, and this article just added to it, that this defensive coaching staff does not like to be questioned. They want to be listened to and listened to only. That type of a relationship does not encourage a player to "be a damn man and knock on his door and express it." Rather it is a quick way to get in a coach's dog house and lose even more playing time.

No, knocking on the door of guy above you and expressing your issues with him only works if he is willing to listen. I am not saying that is the case here but I am suggesting there is not a single on guy on this board who knows any of the defensive coaches well enough to know how they would react to that situation.

[gimpy007]

I remember last year when I said that I did not like the arrogant ****y attitude from GW and how it will hurt the defense in the long run. I also remember saying that GW was not Head Coach Potential.

What is even more funny is that after I said that, I had numerous people on this site tell me that I was not a real Redskin fan and that I had no idea what I was talking about.

Well guess what..? Two things; One) I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. How could we not see this coming? The writing was on the wall. GW is an @$$.

Two) I am a real fan. I love my team. Just ask my friends about how passionate I am about the Redskins.

Here is the thing. You can be a fan and not be a Homer. I will not be a homer. This organization has SERIOUS problems. Things are bad. But guess what..? That’s right I still love my Redskins. Always have and always will.

Being a Redskin fan is like having a child that is always in and out of jail. You find yourself asking why I put up with it and why am I always there for them. You want to believe, but deep down inside you know that they are only going to disappoint you again. But you do believe, maybe, just maybe, some day things could be the way they use to be.

[Rskins06]

This is what happens when you have 3 or 4 "Assistant Head Coaches", they all do whatever they want because they think they can, and for the most part they are doing whatever they want.

Trust me, Gibbs might be older than he was 15 years ago but he will make changes. I think we are seeing the first signs of Gibbs wrath this week. He is not blind to this, don't be surprised if you see some major changes in the next couple weeks if attitudes don't change. I don't necessarily agree the players are tanking it but, if in fact they believe GW is going to be the next head coach after Gibbs and you are a player who feels the way the article dictates, only one thing will ensure this doesn't happen, you fail. What is the worst that happens? The team lets you go, seems to be working out for every other player that has left, look at Walt Harris, why didn't we keep him? Or anyone else for that matter, easy, they were "replaceable" in GW's eyes. Yes the scheme is important, but, if you don't have quality players, it will not work.

If this is true, we will have a new Defensive Coordinator next year, whomever it may be will have a short rope to work with. This team badly needs a GM, Gibbs needs to go back to how he was before in the 80's, and we need to stop treating coaches like they are the reason we succeed. Yes, they help, but if you don't have the players and you don't treat the players as valuble pieces fo the puzzle, you will fail. As we are experiencing now. We are close to becoming the worst run franchise in the NFL, hell, maybe all of sports.........yes, but they sure make a lot of money.

All of that being said, I am and always will be a Redskins Fan "Semper Fi"

Always faithul,

God, Country, Redskins (substitute Corps for Redskins, sorry if I offended any of my fellow Marines....OOOH RAH)

Go Skins, beat Carolina.

[skins4eva]

That article is simply amazing...it's amazing that most of us had our instincts tell us that something was seriously amiss in GW defense and in the way Gibbs is so far removed from everything. My favorite part of that article was about Snyder potentially thinking about getting rid of Williams--it couldn't be clearer that this guy's effectiveness is 2-3 yrs because he only uses the whip, he has no clue how to build players up, only break them down. He needs to get his ego in check like asap!!! This is going to be another interesting offseason. I'm glad to see Gibbs taking more of an active role. I really believe that the offense only needs some minor tinkering now that we have Campbell in--the defense, needs some serious coaching improvement...we've been saying this all season. No other team in the league would start Holdman at WILL week after week...this defensive coaching staff is incredible because they don't play the best guys, they play "their" guys--and I think at the end of the day, we're all going to realize that a lot of what Lavar had to say about this organization and the defense in general was dead-on.

[skins4eva]

I don't believe everything but when the shoe fits...

Like my father says, "there are three sides to every story....theirs, yours and the truth which is usually somewhere in the middle."

Amen. For the money ALL of these men are making, players and coaches, you bet your ass I am laying some blame. The defensive side of the ball has totally fallen apart since the game in Seattle last Jan and you can lay all that blame on injuries. If we get real honest for a minute and look beyond that the defense was not as good last year as it was the year before and once again you really can't blame injuries.

Sorry but I think most of us would have been fired from our every day job for this sort of performance and see no reason to cut these guys slack just because this is football and not sales or manufacturing.

You misunderstand, at least you do me. I am a believer in continuity. I want it...at least right up to the point that I don't think it is working anymore which I admit is often a tough thing to recognize correctly. Let us forget this article for a moment since you seem to completely discount it. I know a couple of things. One - the defense has not done the job this year in any game. Not once. Two - week after week I watch pretty much the same 11 guys line up in the same positions and NOT do the job. There have been a couple of changes but nothing substantive. Three - I see lots of guys who were deemed "replacable" by Williams playing better other places then the guys he has replaced them with. How many here will would not love to have Walt Harris back as the nickleback? Or Pierce back as our MLB with Marshall on the weak side? Or Clark back playing with Taylor at the safty positions? And that is just three.

Do I want continuity? Yes! Do I think there need to be some repercussions for the way the defense is not showing up? Yes, again. Please, do not confuse what I want.

And we might talk about continuity in player personel while we are at it. Continuity is not just about coaches, systems and philosophies. Personel is a large part of that we don't have that.

It might help if the arrogant coaches started putting our players in a position to win. It might help if the arrogant coaches started treating the players with a bit of respect and do some of their own listening. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that at this point just repeating that "the system works" is enough. The "system" is not working and it is up to the coaches to figure out why. They hand picked these players, now they have to figure out how to get them to work together. And they better figure it out fast.

Players play and coaches coach but I am not seeing much of either at the moment. However, coaches control WHO plays and what plays are called. Time for some variation. I would have a lot more patience if I saw something new on the field. Something that I could believe was an attempt by this staff to turn it around. Something that indicated to them that they were at least trying to fix the problems. So far that has not happened.

Worse, every year we lose ground after letting go of guys who got the job done the year before. Year One we were 3rd in the league. Then we let go of Pierce and Smoot and we dropped to 9th. The we let go of Clark, Harris and Arrington and we dropped to the bottom. You can tell me it is the players all you want but the these coaches have more control over what players they have than any coaching staff in the league and they picked these guys so if you tell me it is the players then I am going to point to the coaches.

Fantastic post! This coaching staff deserves serious blame. And, I'm a huge fan of continuity as well--because it generally leads to progress and improvement, but if the well has been completely posioned, you need fresh water put in. And, what if this article even has an ounce of truth to it, and it certainly seems to, then it looks like players vs. coaches on the defensive side of the ball. The "source" sounds like Springs, which would be an even greater indictment since he has been on all of GW's successful defenses in washington, and he knows how to play the position, so he knows if they're not being coached correctly.