skins island connection Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, Burgold said: The idea that Kirk may not know where he wants to go until free agency suggests to me that it is all about the Benjamins. If it was about winning or team, he'd have a pretty good idea already which teams are more competitive, have a better coaching staff, better front office, etc. The only thing he doesn't know is how much each prospective suitor will really ante up. There's nothing wrong with Kirk going after the highest priced suitor or thinking about dollar signs over team. He may even want to go to the better team, but feel that he needs the auction to drive his price up first. And there's nothing wrong with any of that, but it is informative. Well, this is opening day ; opening day for franchise tagging. I think Cousins will sign with a team that is more suited and built for winning rather than chasing the money and ending up in Cleveland or the Jets. He will most likely take a lesser amount to not only take a jab at Dan and the FO but he knows a team breaking the bank for him will jeopardize their chances of building a winner. Still, I hope Bruce doesn't try this tagging scenario; it will only backfire on him or KC will simply not sign it, making this organization look dumb [ again ] in the spotlight. Just let him go away; he doesn't want to be here, and Bruce's pipe dream of getting a drop of blood out of this turnip will just not happen. It will have a negative effect on other players looking this direction; who would want to play for a team who has a front office that can't tie their own shoes much less appreciate and pay players a fair price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HigSkin Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Good grief! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, skins island connection said: Well, this is opening day ; opening day for franchise tagging. I think Cousins will sign with a team that is more suited and built for winning rather than chasing the money and ending up in Cleveland or the Jets. He will most likely take a lesser amount to not only take a jab at Dan and the FO but he knows a team breaking the bank for him will jeopardize their chances of building a winner. Still, I hope Bruce doesn't try this tagging scenario; it will only backfire on him or KC will simply not sign it, making this organization look dumb [ again ] in the spotlight. Just let him go away; he doesn't want to be here, and Bruce's pipe dream of getting a drop of blood out of this turnip will just not happen. It will have a negative effect on other players looking this direction; who would want to play for a team who has a front office that can't tie their own shoes much less appreciate and pay players a fair price. I really don't want to see the tag either. This played out badly on both sides. I admit to some feelings of hostility against Kirk because he chose not to negotiate two years in a row, but think our Front Office made mistakes too (like that damned bridge burning CYA PR press release). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Well if someone is going to give him 60mil straight up, they will sure as hell give up some drafts picks. Get him tagged today. Force the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markmills67 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said: Well if someone is going to give him 60mil straight up, they will sure as hell give up some drafts picks. Get him tagged today. Force the issue. Me likey this a lot HTTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 It was interesting to hear Galdi reporting that Kirk will not negotiate a long term deal with any team that partakes in a trade with the Skins. He really really doesn't want us to tag him, which means that there must be some potential benefit for us to it. Sure, we made him hate us. We get it. But he is already dissing a potential team that really wants him? He is coming across as a tough negotiator, some may even say a real asshole. We reserve the right to tag him, no matter how much he kicks and screams. Maybe we should tag his ass, and let the legal system drag this out for a year. We can hire that sniveling weasels lawyer down in Dallas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmania123 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I think it is best for everyone - fans and FO to move past Cousin's and focus on the upcoming year. I do not believe for one minute they will tag him. I just don't. As big a dumb ass and immature a twit that BA is I just do not see it at all. The Smith trade was the moving on. I am more curious where Kirk winds up. If he goes to Denver then it is all about winning and family, etc. I would say the same about Minnesota. If he goes to the Jets or Brown's who have a propensity for losing just like the Skins he will be a wealthy guy (and he is not now???) but it will not be about winning. But it would be a challenge. I mean if you go to the Brown's you want $$$ and a challenge. I truly think he wants to win. Now. He is set for life financially and he is not super young. He is in the prime of his career now. Where is a good place to live, and work with a HOF QB? Denver. it is the only logical spot if it is really about a chance to win a SB. But Minnesota is not a shabby place to go. Way too cold for me but it is a good team, and a good place to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunny Kelly Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Kirk just wants the money, when you look back at what we were willing to offer him each of the last few years, it wasn't an unfair going on past performance but his own estimation of his own worth was always too high for us to find common ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 16 hours ago, bobandweave said: Older at QB by three years. Let’s be honest they are both over 30 but with age comes wisdom right? Tom Brady is 40, Aaron Rodgers is older, Alex Smith is older but so is the stars on this team. By four years not three. To me its a big difference. He will be 34 soon and before the season. Some QBs keep humming in their mid 30s. Some fall off a cliff like McNabb, Marino, arguably Eli. I am sure he's ok for 2 seasons. But it would be far from unprecedented if at 36 he's lost it some -- especially for a guy whose feet and scrambling are a big part of his game. 16 hours ago, bobandweave said: A. At pick 13 we aren’t in a good position to move up with those other teams all needing QBs too. Plus with the veterans on the team the approach doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve always been on the Alex Smith plan Fuller to me is akin to giving up a first round pick, we gave up a high 3rd round pick. This is really my main difference with your position, you gloss it over like its nothing. To me its not nothing. It's a lot. Tell me the last time a trade like this worked out for the team? This trade (picks for a veteran) would be the first in decades that panned out. If Finlay is correct and they liked Mayfield and Allen, judging by recent mocks its not that far fetched that one of the two drops to 13. But even if they didn't one of the top 10 teams likely end up with Kirk. So you can likely trade up with the same capital you gave up for Alex with the Jets or Denver (whoever lands Kirk). And that's before delving into that they like Rudolph and maybe White who actually would be available later in the draft. 16 hours ago, bobandweave said: I don’t think that either Kirk or Alex falls into the franchise QB category. I think they can both be plugged into the right situtation and win. And I think they are both good QBs. I think the Chiefs offense and the Redskins offense is similar in a lot of ways and that each QB does certain things better then the other. They are very similar I agree they are similar. But I disagree they aren't franchise QBs. To me they both are clearly franchise QBs. Franchise doesn't mean Aaron Rodgers. That means elite. If people want to argue that Alex and Kirk aren't elite I get that. But they are QBs that give you a good shot to win every week. 16 hours ago, bobandweave said: B. Cap room on the defense is vague. If you mean resigning guys like Breeland who is a must to me and Junior and Trent and Brown then we can do that now with Alex Smith. If you mean going shopping for one big old fat run stuffer and that’s it we can do that with Smith too and keep our pass rushers and corner with what they have now. Kirk always hurt that plan. Now if you mean other teams free agents I don’t agree with that. We have to play the compensatory pick game this season Thing is Alex Smith cost 17 million and Kirk could cost up to 30 if he were to chase the money. Both Kirk and Alex are good QBs. Some think Kirk is better some think Alex is better but they are both good QBs. So if both options are good going with the cheaper option makes more sense from the business side of it to me. I read in a couple of places Alex is 17 million this year but 20 against the cap then it rises to 23.5 against the cap. Will see when his contract is official released. But yeah forget Kirk because that's not what I am comparing it to -- Alex versus a rookie QB. And 20 plus million a year is a lot of money. They for example could have easily signed Calais Campbell and more with that extra cash. It's not vague at all. 16 hours ago, bobandweave said: The third round pick doesn’t bother me. Option A using a top pick on a QB was draft picks on a QB. They used a third round pick on a QB. Either way your losing a pick. Rather keep the first and spend the third and not the other way around because of where they are picking. Trading high round picks didn't bother me much in the past either. So I understand the feeling. It brings me back to a show called Redskins lunch and Joe Gibbs took calls, and I called once and said to him, these third round picks bring guys like Cooley why do you trade them away so much since you get bonafide stars at times within that round. And we here don't just have a 3rd but a high third -- its a nice difference. Morgan Moses, Jordan Reed, Moreau, etc, These amorphous 3rd round picks can and often does translate to a decent player. And it was Fuller that was the key to the deal. Farrar who likes Alex was on the radio the other day saying wow that was a big price since you gave up the best slot defender in the NFL. 16 hours ago, bobandweave said: Spending spree should only be used on keeping the teams own free agents and a run stopper. Why? Because we will be losing guys to free agency. If we spend the money on our own players like Breeland and Brown then we will get draft picks for the guys we lose. That’s huge to me, we have to keep restocking the shelves otherwise we can’t take players like Fuller You are sort of contradicting yourself on 2 points. On the FA thread, you agreed with me when they sign FA go for the higher end of the shelf -- the bigger more expensive FAs -- no guts no glory. Here you are also acknowledging Kirk is a good QB -- similar to Alex, But on the same thread and another you are talking about rejoicing when Kirk bombs in his next stint, comparing the situation to RG3. And now you want a more modest approach to FA since it fits the argument here. My point (and I understand I do it too when I am excited and I want to justify a transaction) is you might be being somewhat emotional -- happy Kirk is gone -- happy Alex is coming -- to digest the compensation. We don't even know if they get that 2019 LATE third round pick -- which is the equivalent of a late 4th round 2018 pick. There is a reason Fuller's teammates went nuts when they heard he was in the trade. D. Hall said on the radio not long ago, Fuller will play outside and likely emerge as one of the best cover corners in the league. For me if they didn't go young, then sign a FA like McCarron, Keenum or whomever. We got Polian saying the Eagles should get two first rounders plus for Foles. And we are celebrating maybe getting a late third rounder in 2019 for Kirk Cousins. So we likely get almost nothing for Kirk -- but better yet we lose Kirk AND actually lose a player and a pick. I don't see that as celebration. I see that as something the FO grossly misplayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I am pissed that we are losing him for nothing. It doesn't help that Kirk is stirring the pot as much as anyone right now. But it's a Tuesday, and we have little else to entertain us until September. So. Tag 'em and let lawyers sort 'em out. I get the sense Kirk is in a bit of a panic, on tilt. Odd for a guy that has committed to playing his cards for years to be THE top paid player. He is threatening teams that haven't even bid on his services. We have our QB so his fall back plan is gone. He seems scared we will tag him even though it would hurt us maybe even more than him. An awful lot of teams will be drafting their QB of the future. There are some good free agents available that will provide better value. Whoever signs him needs a solid offensive structure with disciplined OL and WRs playing just right for him to thrive, so he ain't a slam dunk as much as he thinks he is. Throwing into tight coverages still makes him uncomfortable, even on 3rd down deep balls. And per Jay, even in practice. Oh, playing for the overpaying lowly Jets (his only suitor) is only a step above Cleveland, especially if they end up in cap hell by over paying him, and haphazardly buying a supporting cast that ends up a bad fit for a process oriented guy. He doesn't come across as a NY type of guy. There will be a lot of heat there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Stupid Loser Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 19 hours ago, Audible_Red40 said: No, just no! Every years fans think there's a late round gem, when in fact there is not. Once a decade you will see a Brady or a Warner or hell even a Romo, where the latter 2 are not even picks, but they are FA's. Fact is there are next to never late round gem QB's.......UNLESS POSSIBLY......You're patient!!!! Which history proves the Redskins are not even close to patient. I'd rather try and find some hard working special teams contributor trying to make the team, then some QB that will never take us anywhere. Pick a year, any year, and look at the results for all theses late round gems. Waste of a pick if you ask me. We had our late round gem!!!! We don't want him though. Time to try for another couple decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 27 minutes ago, RandyHolt said: I am pissed that we are losing him for nothing. It doesn't help that Kirk is stirring the pot as much as anyone right now. But it's a Tuesday, and we have little else to entertain us until September. So. Tag 'em and let lawyers sort 'em out. My gut is telling me that if we pursue this... it's going to end badly for us. Flashbacks to the uncapped year.... where it was not against the 'rules,' but wasn't the intended purpose of the situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Kirk is stirring the pot? Where do you guys come up with this stuff? The whole 'won't sign a LTD with any team that trades for him' deal is just Business 101. Many of us called this the moment this idea of a tag and trade was brought up. It's the only strategy that makes any sense. I didn't need Rappaport to tell me that's what they were going to do. It's really not that much different than say, Alex Smith indicating that he wants a LTD @ X dollars and no QB drafted behind him this season from any potential trade partner. While we don't know that any of this is fact, it only makes sense for everyone involved to play their hands the way they have. For whatever reason, fans seems to always want the players to forego their leverage and succumb to the owners on damn near everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 54 minutes ago, RandyHolt said: I am pissed that we are losing him for nothing. It doesn't help that Kirk is stirring the pot as much as anyone right now. But it's a Tuesday, and we have little else to entertain us until September. So. Tag 'em and let lawyers sort 'em out. I was just watching yesterdays episode of NFL live and ditto listened to Finlay this morning. I'd summarize both as Much Ado About Nothing. They don't think the Redskins are tagging Kirk. NFL Network said the same thing yesterday. Polian who is arguably the most pro Bruce (maybe the only) guy on national tv -- goes it would be ridiculous for the Redskins to do and won't end well -- in his mind no way they do it. I don't think they will do it either. I'd say 1% chance. Their leverage/ship sailed once they made the trade for Alex Smith. It's another reason why I don't like the trade because not only did they lose capital but they likely gave up their best shot of gaining capital for trading Kirk. Recalling my Economy 101 class, you got lost capital and "opportunity cost" loses too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashburn Dave Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 I wanted to sign KC two years ago when it made sense for a LTD at a reasonable price. Now it sounds like he played last year to pad his stats for free agency. If that is true then screw him. Tag him out of spite since we don't have anything else If the Jets are talking 60 mil for the first year and I hear that Elway wants to win now then we should be able to get a pick for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HigSkin Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Does anybody know if the tag resets if you trade a player to another team? I ask because if he signs and is traded to another team like the Jets but won't negotiate a LT deal, could they continue to just tag him? I mean with them talking about ridiculous first year numbers like $60 mil, they'd actually save money by just absorbing the tag and then continuing to tag him. Just a thought... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, Ashburn Dave said: Now it sounds like he played last year to pad his stats for free agency. I see you are somewhere in between the stages of anger and bargaining. So the guy who drops his "200 million dollar shoulder" to get a first down or lets throws rip while bracing to be bludgeoned by free rushers is just hanging out and padding his stats? On the other side of that, he forces several picks in the last game of the season. Why on earth would he do that in a meaningless game if he was trying to pad his stats? C'mon man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 46 minutes ago, Ashburn Dave said: I wanted to sign KC two years ago when it made sense for a LTD at a reasonable price. Now it sounds like he played last year to pad his stats for free agency. Kirks mind was made up for him 2 years ago by our F.O.... I can understand being upset that he was so publicly in support of remaining here, yet truthfully he knew he wasn't going to sign... but I wouldn't look at it like he was just padding his stats. He was playing the only way he knows how. Be mad at him for going out and playing the fans... but don't get mad at him for taking the money he was given. The team franchise tagged him, he didnt hold us hostage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashburn Dave Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 28 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I see you are somewhere in between the stages of anger and bargaining. So the guy who drops his "200 million dollar shoulder" to get a first down or lets throws rip while bracing to be bludgeoned by free rushers is just hanging out and padding his stats? On the other side of that, he forces several picks in the last game of the season. Why on earth would he do that in a meaningless game if he was trying to pad his stats? C'mon man. What I've been hearing on the radio the last few days is that he didn't gamble enough last year with the deep ball for fear of the INT and hurting his free agency value. Just what I heard but if it's true then him first I guess is OK with you. No anger man, too old for that. Just a little payback The alternative is I root for his success on another team...............NOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Stupid Loser Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 32 minutes ago, OVCChairman said: Kirks mind was made up for him 2 years ago by our F.O.... I can understand being upset that he was so publicly in support of remaining here, yet truthfully he knew he wasn't going to sign... but I wouldn't look at it like he was just padding his stats. He was playing the only way he knows how. Be mad at him for going out and playing the fans... but don't get mad at him for taking the money he was given. The team franchise tagged him, he didnt hold us hostage. I've had a different take on that, somewhat. Maybe I'm giving Kirk too much credit, I don't know him. But I take him as honest in general. I think it became clear to Kirk that Bruce didn't believe in him and certainly didn't have Kirk's best interest in mind. (not that he necessarily should) The way he was treated by Bruce in the whole thing made him decide that he wasn't going to let one man determine his future. He was going to go to FA and let the market determine his value, not one guy who he didn't trust who had been giving him the finger for 3 years. So when Kirk said he was surprised by the Alex trade and that he thought when it was all said and done that he would probably be a Redskin, I think he believed that. He thought the market would set his value and then they could negotiate with Bruce fairly from that point. And when that happened he would sign with the Redskins. I think Kirk thought that was what would happen. He was surprised because Bruce wanted no part of that because Bruce's only interest was winning the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, HigSkin said: Does anybody know if the tag resets if you trade a player to another team? I ask because if he signs and is traded to another team like the Jets but won't negotiate a LT deal, could they continue to just tag him? I mean with them talking about ridiculous first year numbers like $60 mil, they'd actually save money by just absorbing the tag and then continuing to tag him. Just a thought... No. See Drew Brees. The number of tags are for his career - no matter what team they play for. So if the team Kirk signs with wants to tag him, it will be his 3rd and will follow that salary structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said: I've had a different take on that, somewhat. Maybe I'm giving Kirk too much credit, I don't know him. But I take him as honest in general. I think it became clear to Kirk that Bruce didn't believe in him and certainly didn't have Kirk's best interest in mind. (not that he necessarily should) The way he was treated by Bruce in the whole thing made him decide that he wasn't going to let one man determine his future. He was going to go to FA and let the market determine his value, not one guy who he didn't trust who had been giving him the finger for 3 years. So when Kirk said he was surprised by the Alex trade and that he thought when it was all said and done that he would probably be a Redskin, I think he believed that. He thought the market would set his value and then they could negotiate with Bruce fairly from that point. And when that happened he would sign with the Redskins. I think Kirk thought that was what would happen. He was surprised because Bruce wanted no part of that because Bruce's only interest was winning the deal. Even if that's the case, I can't blame Bruce for trading for Alex... I'm not sure I would want to risk it. If Kirk were to go to free agency, there are reports now that Kirk might see $30 mil a year, fully guaranteed for the first 3, which we would not be able to match. Well at that point, all of our options are exhausted. At some point during the 16 season, the narrative changed with Kirk. During 15 and the off season following it, the quotes were "it's up to the team." That shifted to "The best QBs spend their career in one place." Which then had turned into "I'm excited to try out free agency." He would sprinkle that last one in, then he would also say "I want to be a Redskin." I was naive enough myself to get excited about that, and believe that the free agency quotes were just a bargaining chip, but I believe i had it backward. That Free Agency was his goal, and the 'love' for the Redskins was just keeping the door open in case he got to free agency and nothing blew up his skirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 27 minutes ago, Ashburn Dave said: What I've been hearing on the radio the last few days is that he didn't gamble enough last year with the deep ball for fear of the INT and hurting his free agency value. Just what I heard but if it's true then him first I guess is OK with you. No anger man, too old for that. Just a little payback The alternative is I root for his success on another team...............NOT It makes a lot more sense that he felt a lot less confident about ripping the deep ball given the personnel he had and the looks he was facing, than it does that he's trying to purge interceptions. Seems kind of foolish to force picks in the very last meaningless game of the season if his plan for the season was to keep those numbers low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 21 hours ago, bobandweave said: Have fun in NY Kirk, a place you couldn't ever win. The demise of Kirk will be fun to watch hahaha Match made in heaven Than I guess his success is going to be painful for you, get ready to be unhappy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 5 hours ago, Burgold said: The idea that Kirk may not know where he wants to go until free agency suggests to me that it is all about the Benjamins. If it was about winning or team, he'd have a pretty good idea already which teams are more competitive, have a better coaching staff, better front office, etc. The only thing he doesn't know is how much each prospective suitor will really ante up. There's nothing wrong with Kirk going after the highest priced suitor or thinking about dollar signs over team. He may even want to go to the better team, but feel that he needs the auction to drive his price up first. And there's nothing wrong with any of that, but it is informative. Its hard to take Cousins at his word. One side of his face says that going to a winner is important to him One side of his face says he has to think about all of the future QB contracts to come and make sure that he doesn’t hurt those guys future earnings Those two thoughts are at odds with one another. In a perfect world Kirk would goto Minnesota the absolute best landing spot for him to go if he cares about winning. On the other hand his best landing spot would be the JETs if he cares about getting paid Since he never backed off his belief in protecting the future QB economy I think his priority is money first winning second and when you can dump that nonsense for a guy probably making 13+ million less with the same skillset that’s called winning to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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