Got Dammit Doctson

[Bunny Kelly]

2 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Now we're complaining about running the ball instead of throwing fades?

 

Ok...

 

Do you not realise it HAS to be someone's fault? It couldn't be two good sides playing a tough play-off level match where the slightly more polished experienced side, who were also at home won.

[goskins10]

15 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

Doctson should have had both hands on the ball.  He dropped a TD that could have won the game.  Lots of mistakes contributed to the loss but none as big as this mistake.

 

I don't think Garcon gets high enough to grab it.  I wish Garcon was on the team because Cousins needs more help from the WRs but I don't think Garcon makes this catch for other reasons.

 

So let me get this straight, he leaps for a ball and gets two hands on it (That you admit he only gets to because of his height and leaping ability), gets horribly face masked on the way down (please see @Stugein post with picture), and it's a huge "mistake"??? 

 

Sorry, but that's a bit ridiculous. It would have been a really nice catch had he made it. But that he didn't come down with it, while unfortunate is not a "mistake". He tried but when you have a guy pulling your head back by your helmet and facemask on the way to hit the ground from that high a leap, him not holding onto the ball is not a "mistake".

 

The vitriol sent Doctson's way has been over the top. I saw things like "He is bum!" "I hate him" "He is a bust" and more. Not to mention the idea that he is directly responsible for the loss. The guy is in essentially his 4th gm of his NFL career, on a huge stage in a hostile environment, with the other team apparently allowed to cheat - at least on that play. And people want to trash the guy? Just makes no sense.

 

And then you finish with the WRs need to help Kirk out more. How about those passes be a little more accurate? I love me some Kirk, but he is not perfect. Not by any means. They need to help each other out.

 

 

[SWFLSkins]

19 hours ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

Stu that is disturbing. I used the pic is a tweet, did not copy your words fwiw. Where is the pic from, credit due? 

 

18 hours ago, Stugein said:

I don't know who the photographer is.  I originally saw that image in a tweet at https://twitter.com/ChrisLingebach

 

18 hours ago, Riggo'sRangers said:

That will be a good one for the league to "review" and send out their standard apology letter.  I wonder how many of those we've received over the years?  That's a hell of an egregious penalty, at a key moment in the game, that will never be remembered.  I am not one who complains about officiating, as it usually evens out, BUT it does decide games as the margin for error (winning/losing) is so thin with the parity in today's league. That is quite irritating.  Hail 

 

 

IMO, this pic Stu found on Chris Lingebach twitter feed nullifies any validity this thread had if there was any to begin with. The poster made a thread on a thought, the thought was wrong. Maybe it's the nature of today's Fan, leap and open your mouth before actually investigating or using reason. You have to look no further than the post above this to see that on ES facts and common sense will eventually come to the forefront.  

Thanks to @goskins10 for a great post summing up reality on this topic.

 

And @Stugein for finding that on twitter when I wasn't looking. 

Now should I make a thread about Preston Smith not lining up offsides on 3rd and goal? OH wait there is a Ref thread out there somewhere. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

If Doctson hadn't been injured and unavailable the majority of his tenure here, this backlash wouldn't be near what it is.  It just so happens that the narrative, wrong or right, is that he's soft and unwilling to play with pain.  He braced his fall rather than selling entirely out to get two hands on the ball.  Which is an easy thing to critique while watching in slow motion from the comfort of a couch.  I'm not sure why anyone is surprised to see folks calling him a bum, bust,etc.  Every time Kirk misses a throw, there are a half dozen comments in the gameday thread about how much he sucks and doesn't deserve a deal.  Doctson was the last guy to have his hands on a ball that could have won a primetime game  against arguably the leagues best team currently.  He's going to get the flack.  Had the ball been uncatchable, it would have been Kirk on the cross.  That's how this whole fandom thing works, right or wrong.

[RandyHolt]

I for one don't find fault in players putting their arm down to brace for their fall. I bet he did it in many of the great catches in college that made us covet him in the first place. Round.

 

Heh maybe that is when he injured his shoulder.  Maybe if he didn't brace for his fall, there may be an even worse injury. I wonder if the corners fingers got into his eye on the play; it certainly looks damn close.

[Bunny Kelly]

I think there are two sides to this thread & why it kept going, the obvious Doctson is soft & a bust but also plenty of people who were genuinely excited by the attempt. 

 

He makes the catch & maybe we win, go 9-7 instead of 8-8 this yr, but flashing the qualities of an elite WR means that he could pick up much more wins over the next few years. As disappointing as it was he didn't complete the catch I'm much more positive after that individual play than beforehand. 

[Veryoldschool]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

So let me get this straight, he leaps for a ball and gets two hands on it (That you admit he only gets to because of his height and leaping ability), gets horribly face masked on the way down (please see @Stugein post with picture), and it's a huge "mistake"??? 

 

Sorry, but that's a bit ridiculous. It would have been a really nice catch had he made it. But that he didn't come down with it, while unfortunate is not a "mistake". He tried but when you have a guy pulling your head back by your helmet and facemask on the way to hit the ground from that high a leap, him not holding onto the ball is not a "mistake".

 

The vitriol sent Doctson's way has been over the top. I saw things like "He is bum!" "I hate him" "He is a bust" and more. Not to mention the idea that he is directly responsible for the loss. The guy is in essentially his 4th gm of his NFL career, on a huge stage in a hostile environment, with the other team apparently allowed to cheat - at least on that play. And people want to trash the guy? Just makes no sense.

 

And then you finish with the WRs need to help Kirk out more. How about those passes be a little more accurate? I love me some Kirk, but he is not perfect. Not by any means. They need to help each other out.

 

 

 

Whoa....  I pointed out what his coach probably pointed out to him he needed to use two hands to secure the ball.  Don't project all that other stuff on me.

[PartyPosse]

6 hours ago, Bunny Kelly said:

 

Do you not realise it HAS to be someone's fault? It couldn't be two good sides playing a tough play-off level match where the slightly more polished experienced side, who were also at home won.

That would be true if we haven't had red zone woes for a year and a half now. The play calling and results have been iffy for a while now. We still rank near the bottom in red zone efficiency. So no, this particular drive wasn't an anomaly because of who we played.

[Bunny Kelly]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

That would be true if we haven't had red zone woes for a year and a half now. The play calling and results have been iffy for a while now. We still rank near the bottom in red zone efficiency. So no, this particular drive wasn't an anomaly because of who we played.

 

Firstly this thread is more about the pros & cons of Doctson not our play in the RZ (technically play wasn't in RZ either)

 

Secondly if you did want to make it about our RZ issues I still stand over the point that it was positive in the long term as Doctson leap showed us a new weapon in the RZ, something that we have seriously lacked for the last 18months

[skins island connection]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

That would be true if we haven't had red zone woes for a year and a half now. The play calling and results have been iffy for a while now. We still rank near the bottom in red zone efficiency. So no, this particular drive wasn't an anomaly because of who we played.

 

 This is an issue that really needs addressing. The TO late in the game gave the Chiefs the opportunity to gameplan a quick drive. Why is it Gruden seems to have issues in last 2 minutes of half and finals of games?

Yes, Doctson has to catch that ball; he was a highly valued WR in the draft because he had skills, he could jump for the ball and was a good size target for QBs. when players leap for a ball, at the point they catch it, their body tenses up from expecting to hit the ground harder than usual. Its hard to see whether the defender's hand/fingers were inside his face mask, but thats after he has his hands on the ball. It is a very fast happening play from point of catching the ball to the ground, but this is what these guys have been doing for a long time, from high school to college to pro level. 

 

Keep in mind something; how much/long of a leash or cushion is he going to have before people start changing their views on him? I'm not saying he should be cut or anything like that, but last year it was injuries, and some questionable issues as well regarding his health, so this is essentially his rookie season according to some. Does he get the entire season?   2 years?   1/2 season?   If he doesn't show improvement, he will be labeled the next Westbrook or Taylor Jacobs.

[RandyHolt]

I heard on XM Fantasy that no WR has amassed LESS than 20 catches in their first 2 years combined, and then went on to a significant career. I have spot checked random players, and have not been able to find anyone to prove them wrong. I assume they are talking in the modern/fantasy era...

 

He needs 15 catches to make it to 20. He catches about half his target thus far, so needs ~2-3 targets/game in the next 12 games to have a reasonable chance of hitting 20.

 

Stats:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/2576019/josh-doctson

[Mooka]

6 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

So let me get this straight, he leaps for a ball and gets two hands on it (That you admit he only gets to because of his height and leaping ability), gets horribly face masked on the way down (please see @Stugein post with picture), and it's a huge "mistake"??? 

 

 

This is the big leagues.

 

If your hands are on the football and you don't come down with the catch, that's called a mistake. Trailing, with only 1 minute left in the game, that's called a huge mistake. 

 

Docston cost us that ballgame. 

 

There are no excuses. The defender is supposed to do everything and anything he can to get that ball out. With the game on the line, in the end zone, Docston's job is to come down with that football despite him. 

 

 

That being said, the only reason why it just a mistake and not JOSH DOCTSON ****ING SUCKS  is because it was a really tough catch and Josh went all out for it. Was crushing seeing that ball come out. He'll get more opportunities in our offense. Might just win us a ball-game next time. 

 

[Bunny Kelly]

32 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 This is an issue that really needs addressing. The TO late in the game gave the Chiefs the opportunity to gameplan a quick drive. Why is it Gruden seems to have issues in last 2 minutes of half and finals of games?

Yes, Doctson has to catch that ball; he was a highly valued WR in the draft because he had skills, he could jump for the ball and was a good size target for QBs. when players leap for a ball, at the point they catch it, their body tenses up from expecting to hit the ground harder than usual. Its hard to see whether the defender's hand/fingers were inside his face mask, but thats after he has his hands on the ball. It is a very fast happening play from point of catching the ball to the ground, but this is what these guys have been doing for a long time, from high school to college to pro level. 

 

Keep in mind something; how much/long of a leash or cushion is he going to have before people start changing their views on him? I'm not saying he should be cut or anything like that, but last year it was injuries, and some questionable issues as well regarding his health, so this is essentially his rookie season according to some. Does he get the entire season?   2 years?   1/2 season?   If he doesn't show improvement, he will be labeled the next Westbrook or Taylor Jacobs.

 

 

He needs targets, we don't know what we have but the small sample of size of when the ball has been thrown his way has been quite encouraging. Maybe he won't be up to much but we need to give him the opportunity, especially when the alternatives are Pryor & Grant.

[pjfootballer]

It does baffle me that Gruden doesn't know how to manage the clock.  He played and coached in Arena League Football, and the way they manipulate the last 1:00 of the game in that league is astonishing.  They have the 1 minute warning and you really need to know how to use the clock and your timeouts in that league. Did he not learn anything?

[Wildbunny]

11 hours ago, Bunny Kelly said:

 

Do you not realise it HAS to be someone's fault?

Yeah, I realize that.

But you should have guessed with what I said, that to me it's the fans fault for not knowing what they want.

 

Someday, maybe, most will understand that a good playcall is the one that succeeds. And on each down, two playcalls are made, one offensive, one defensive. Either one of them will be bad.

 

2 hours ago, Mooka said:

 

This is the big leagues.

 

If your hands are on the football and you don't come down with the catch, that's called a mistake. Trailing, with only 1 minute left in the game, that's called a huge mistake. 

 

Docston cost us that ballgame. 

 

There are no excuses. The defender is supposed to do everything and anything he can to get that ball out. With the game on the line, in the end zone, Docston's job is to come down with that football despite him. 

 

 

That being said, the only reason why it just a mistake and not JOSH DOCTSON ****ING SUCKS  is because it was a really tough catch and Josh went all out for it. Was crushing seeing that ball come out. He'll get more opportunities in our offense. Might just win us a ball-game next time. 

 

 

Well, looking at the replay on NFL.com, it mostly seemed to me that he has control of the ball.

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2017100200/2017/REG4/redskins@chiefs#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000855822&tab=videos

 

Grabs it with two hands, stuck in under the left arm. Ball doesn't move.

Gets a hand in his face, arm doesn't move either, ball still under his arm. (and the facemask happens so late it doesn't change much honestly).;.

Right foot on the ground, right knee on the ground, left forearm on the ground. Ball still under the left arm...

 

Which gets us to the infamous "what is a catch" kind of stuff. Item 4 of the rule is just a beauty regarding it.

 

Getting me back to the first part.

Let's blame the NFL.

 

[PartyPosse]

8 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Yeah, I realize that.

But you should have guessed with what I said, that to me it's the fans fault for not knowing what they want.

 

Someday, maybe, most will understand that a good playcall is the one that succeeds. And on each down, two playcalls are made, one offensive, one defensive. Either one of them will be bad.

We're 30th in redzone efficiency this year and we were 30th in redzone efficiency last year. Between poor plays and poor play calls most of the time our calls are the bad one. It's not that difficult.

[Wyndorf25]

On 10/3/2017 at 12:03 AM, Bigmuss1 said:

I said this in game thread, yes, he has to hold on to that pass.  

 

But, did u notice how high he was when he "caught" it???  That's why he is a first round talent.  Live and learn, hope it hurts and he gets better from this mistake.  

 

Head to head with best team in football, let's get healthy thru the bye week. 

 

I think Doctson comes down with a pass like that 6.5 times out of 10. This was just one that got away. A big one, however.

[RandyHolt]

6 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

It does baffle me that Gruden doesn't know how to manage the clock.  He played and coached in Arena League Football, and the way they manipulate the last 1:00 of the game in that league is astonishing.  They have the 1 minute warning and you really need to know how to use the clock and your timeouts in that league. Did he not learn anything?

 

Cooley said he thought someone on the headset told him to call it. It was speculative based on what he saw at the time, he thought he saw Jay listening into his headset, and then make a beeline to the official in a sudden panic.

 

I will say this. Having to be the play caller certainly can distract a coach from time management duties, or vice versa.

 

I am still pissed we didn't at least go to the line, and try to bait them with some hard counts, after all the success Alex had on us.  Read the defense, perhaps gain a little insight, look for a blown coverage, a LB on Reed, or a corner far off.... whatever, and then call a timeout at the last minute.  Part of it may be not trusting Kirk at the LOS to read and improvise - no rapport with WRs or no audibles allowed. I understand Jay wanting control there and no mistakes, but some things suddenly become exploitable at the LOS especially if you rush to the line like you are going to run a play.  Get the D scrambling, instead of ourselves scrambling to hastily call a timeout. Jay can also use the time with Kirk at the line stalling, to decide how to work the clock.

[skins island connection]

4 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Yeah, I realize that.

But you should have guessed with what I said, that to me it's the fans fault for not knowing what they want.

 

Someday, maybe, most will understand that a good playcall is the one that succeeds. And on each down, two playcalls are made, one offensive, one defensive. Either one of them will be bad.

 

 

Grabs it with two hands, stuck in under the left arm. Ball doesn't move.

Gets a hand in his face, arm doesn't move either, ball still under his arm. (and the facemask happens so late it doesn't change much honestly).;.

Right foot on the ground, right knee on the ground, left forearm on the ground. Ball still under the left arm...

 

Which gets us to the infamous "what is a catch" kind of stuff. Item 4 of the rule is just a beauty regarding it.

 

Getting me back to the first part.

Let's blame the NFL.

 

 

 Judging by the way it came out, I don't think one could call it a catch.

 We saw Dez' drop awhile back, Calvin Johnson's [ which I fully believe that was a catch ] and how the refs were at least being consistent about calling them non catches, and with Doctson's drop, I couldn't say it was anything near a catch.

Sure, he had possession going to the ground, but even in the playoff win the Redskins had in Tampa Bay long ago, where the TB receiver caught it, had possession, went to the ground, and the ball touched the turf, causing the ball to move, thus the refs ruled it to be incomplete.  [ I think it was a playoff game ] .

 

I don't want to give up on the kid, but he has to make some strides, and fast. I don't want to see a situation where he finally comes around just in time for contract signing, then demand some huge salary that he might not deserve.  Feed him the ball, test him, force him to either develop or cut ties. We can't afford another Michael Westbrook scenario...

[PotomacGator]

Things like this seem to separate us from the truly great teams.

 

I'm not panicking with Doctson and I don't expect him to catch every, crazy ball; it's just so annoying that he went through the entire motion of securing the catch (at least with one hand) and then simply couldn't hold on.

[RandyHolt]

I think opie meant to say: Docgummit!

 

That would have been a helluva catch, even if we lost.  Just our ****ing luck, he got injured on the way down. You cannot make this stuff up. You heard it here first, he dropped it because he got injured. Not the desperation facemask.

[skinsmania123]

12 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

Whoa....  I pointed out what his coach probably pointed out to him he needed to use two hands to secure the ball.  Don't project all that other stuff on me.

I think you may want to look at the picture he is talking about.  The defender had his hand over the top of one side of his helmet and his fingers were actually inside his helmet covering one eye and it is clear Doctson had the other eye closed.  He did catch the ball with both hands but then the defender made that move as he was falling to the ground.   I find it difficult to believe the refs missed that but they did.  

 

It is somewhat disturbing the amount of disgust and blame some fans are levying against Doctson without considering this photo.  Not to mention that technically this is more like his first year - he is just getting started.  And of course everyone thought he was great after the Raider's game.  I think he is going to be real good and they just need to get him involved earlier in the game.

 

 

[Peregrine]

Oh please, Doctson got himself into a position that few receivers in the NFL could.  Yes, he should have completed it, but only because he did what other receivers couldnt first.

 

Lets also not forget he got facemasked coming down and it went uncalled.  That play showed his immense talent, he just needs to finish that last 10% on a key play like that.  Hes young, he will get it.

[LaxBuddy21]

I thought the take heard the radio summed it up best. Imagine standing on a bunk bed, jumping off, catching a ball mid air, and holding while you hit the ground. That's basically what he did. Tell me who wouldn't try to brace their fall in that scenario? And if the ball hits the ground while you are holding on from that high, it would be tough for even the best to hold on. I was disappointed at the result but I'm not mad at Doctson. Many much better receivers drop a lot easier balls in key spots. He just doesn't have the history so far so we judge him harder. Let's give him time and see if this is an anomaly or a trend before we crap all over the guy. 

[goskins10]

5 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I think opie meant to say: Docgummit!

 

That would have been a helluva catch, even if we lost.  Just our ****ing luck, he got injured on the way down. You cannot make this stuff up. You heard it here first, he dropped it because he got injured. Not the desperation facemask.

 

I understand what you are saying. But my thought is that without the facemask, he can see where the ground is and doesn't need to brace himself as much, or at least in a way that he does not get injured. With his head pulled back he can't see how for the ground is. Of course, this is just speculation on my part.