The Skins RB situation....

[carex]

9 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

That adds up to 30 bud.  An average of 3 yards a carry... hard to argue that 4+ a carry is rule when it's above the average.  He had 2 carries that exceeded 4 yards, that is HARDLY good enough to be successful as a rush offense. 

 

4+ means 4 or more, six out of ten got that, and ten carries is hardly good enough to tell if you can have a successful rush offense

[OVCChairman]

Just now, carex said:

 

4+ means 4 or more, six out of ten got that, and ten carries is hardly good enough to tell if you can have a successful rush offense

semantics, i would see that as more than 4,but that's just opinion. I don't disagree it's a limited supply of data, but what data is there, screams inefficient rush offense.  The OP mentioned bringing in a 'more talented' type back, and my point was that it's not necessarily the back that's the problem.  Kelley wasn't missing gaping holes, or slipping and falling, the holes were not there outside of a few exceptions.   

[OVCChairman]

I

Here is a good run, in spite of the fact Lauvao gets beat.

 

Here the hole closes and there's just nowhere to go.  

[sportjunkie07]

I don't think Kelley is the problem, even though he doesnt appear to be a great talent. 

 

I think the yardage situation and play calls make our run game highly predictable. 

 

We have to take what is given by the defense and be more creative in the disguise and formation of our run plays.

 

Then we need to execute those plays like we have practiced them, that is, without formation penalties, false starts, and blockers need to be at least on their assignments. 

 

We do that and I don't think it will matter whether it is perine or Kelley back there. 

 

Also, chris thompson needs to be on the field as much as we can allow it. 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

53 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

That adds up to 30 bud.  An average of 3 yards a carry... hard to argue that 4+ a carry is rule when it's above the average.  He had 2 carries that exceeded 4 yards, that is HARDLY good enough to be successful as a rush offense. 

 

Which is why Grud bails on the run. We suck at it and its pointless.

[RandyHolt]

I still want more creativity. Instead of packing Crowder down onto the EOTL expecting him to block, why not have him run a fake end around or jet sweep? Watch how that got defended a few times, and maybe try it later. Is everyone keying heavy on Kelley up the gut, call the flea flicker once a month or after a few failed dives. Try a quick toss outside with a pair of big WRs out ready to block. Try some simple things to help out the OL that I see struggling for the past 25 games or so.

 

I think Jay spends 90% of his time dreaming up pass plays. Wouldn't you, with Kelley as your lead back? That is no slight to Kelley though, as he has shown enough to prove Jay is happy with his tough style.  He'd rather diagram plays to... in NO particular order - Grant Reed Pryor Crowder, CT...

 

I really think an all down back really stops and makes defenses think. So much of what Jay does is off the showing of run with Kelley, and pass with CT.  Yeah he has to work with what he has, but am intrigued at Perine and what he can do with a few passes thrown his way.  I want to see Jay call the circle or wheel, or double wheel. Try to get a 2nd back heavily involved in the game plan. One Sammie Perine.  Instead of his one touch this week being predictable up the gut, hit him in the flat, let him go terrorize a tiny corner.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

37 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

 

Which is why Grud bails on the run. We suck at it and its pointless.

I think in every game, Gruden tries to establish the run early, it fails misserably, and we get away from it.

 

I've always wondered, why don't we start by establishing the pass, a lot of quick-game stuff, throw a bunch early, especially short, safe throws, and then try and run off of that?

 

Then I remind myself that the running game is installed by Callahan, the passing game by Cavanaugh, and plays are called by Gruden.  So nothing compliments the other.

 

And that's why we always do the same thing with the same results.  Even the last 2 years with McVay, it was similar.  But better, because at least the guy installing the pass game was calling the plays.  

[Taylorcooley1]

Trade a third round pick for Adrian Peterson..he wants out in New Orleans.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I still want more creativity. Instead of packing Crowder down onto the EOTL expecting him to block, why not have to run a fake end around or jet sweep? Watch how that got defended a few times, and maybe try it later. Is everyone keying heavy on Kelley up the gut, call the flea flicker once a month or after a few failed dives. Try a quick toss outside with a pair of big WRs out ready to block. Try some simple things to help out the OL that I see struggling for the past 25 games or so.

 

I think Jay spends 90% of his time dreaming up pass plays. Wouldn't you, with Kelley as your lead back? That is no slight to Kelley though, as he has shown enough to prove Jay is happy with his tough style.  He'd rather diagram plays to... in NO particular order - Grant Reed Pryor Crowder, CT...

 

I really think an all down back really stops and makes defenses think. So much of what Jay does is off the showing of run with Kelley, and pass with CT.  Yeah he has to work with what he has, but am intrigued at Perine and what he can do with a few passes thrown his way.

The Peyton Manning Colts of the early 2000's would use exactly the same formation, 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 RB, and they would line up, and the defense would have no idea what the hell they were going to do.  Peyton would look at the defense, and then switch into a play that was most adventageous for the offense.  And it worked. 

 

The reason that it worked is that they had good TEs who could block and catch, and a good RB who could do everything. And, of course, Peyton pulling the trigger.  

 

But the point is that they didn't try to use a formation to create a matchup.  They didn't sub in a "blocking WR" (Ryan Grant) or an extra tackle, or jam everybody inside, or any of that nonesense.  Those are all "tells."

 

And because of that, they were able to get defenses stuck in a certain defense.  If you came out in nickle, They'd just run the ball on you, and they'd operate so fast, you couldn't substitute.  If you came out in base, Peyton would kill you with the pass.

 

Granted, our guys aren't there guys.  But I'm pretty sure that we could employ some components of that philosophy to good effect.  The 'Skins could go Prior/Crowder, Reed/Davis + CT, and that would have A LOT of speed and size on the field at the same time.   And you're not going to be slamming CT up the gut a whole lot, so minus freak injury, it shouldn't wear him out too much.  And he's the best RB on the team.  

 

I'd at least try that a few times, with no-huddle, and see if it worked.  I bet it would, at least to some extent.  

 

8 minutes ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

Trade a third round pick for Adrian Peterson..he wants out in New Orleans.

 

Vinny?! Vinny??!!! Is that you?

 

EDITED for 2 stupid typos.  CT = WR, and we weren't slamming him "up the guy".  Sigh.  Long day.  

[RandyHolt]

I feel like Peterson is washed up or injury prone, or is a bad PR waiting to happen. Maybe a 6th or 7th if NO is desperate to get rid of him after Perine and Brown get their chance....  it cost NO nothing to get him, then they should get close to nothing for him in my GM manual.  I would like to see him dominate a game or 2 before any trade. I also doubt he would cure our OL woes... does he still have elite quickness and skills? Backs fall off a cliff it seems....

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I feel like Peterson is washed up or injury prone, or is a bad PR waiting to happen. Maybe a 6th or 7th if NO is desperate to get rid of him after Perine and Brown get their chance....  it cost NO nothing to get him, then they should get close to nothing for him in my GM manual.  I would like to see him dominate a game or 2 before any trade. I also doubt he would cure our OL woes... does he still have elite quickness and skills? Backs fall off a cliff it seems....

Well, if you saw him dominate a game or two, he probably wouldn't be asking for a trade. 

 

And I really think our OL woes are a result of plain, dumbass stupidity on the part of the coaching staff.  They just don't know what they want to do, and haven't taught it well.  I blame this on Gruden for not just finding a top-level OC and turning the offense over to him, instead trying to bandaid together himself, Callahan and Cavanaugh.  I just don't think that stupid decision can be repeated enough.  

 

In 2014, he did the same thing, before McVay really took over as OC in 2015, and they hired Cavanaugh as a QB coach as well.  Now, McVay left, and they're back in the same stupid structure with too much on Gruden, so it's sub-optimized everywhere.

 

Total idiocy.  

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

What is this 'RB' thing you speak of?

 

Hail 

[RandyHolt]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, if you saw him dominate a game or two, he probably wouldn't be asking for a trade. 

 

Since we are talking hypo's.... unless his coach knew he needed a lighter workload after a big day, and went with a heavy rotation. Managing his touches for his own well being, which pisses him off.... yeah otherwise you point is taken.

 

If we wanted him that bad we should have targeted him in April.

[dyst]

I just find it odd that such hulking men can get pushed back so consistently. Is there no defensive line that they can collectively dominate? Are the players just plan weak or is it the run design that is awful? I can't tell, but this is pretty ridiculous. 

 

Personally I blame the coaching staff for not finding something that works. A different lineup if these guys don't fit your run scheme, but if you want to keep these guys then change your scheme to adjust to their talent.

 

If you don't want to change the scheme or the talent, then we have issues.

[Taylorcooley1]

Ya..Vinny here...ya know what get him in burgundy and gold quick...second round pick and ship Breeland to sweeten the deal...

[Darrell Green Fan]

I'll never get the love for Brown, we already know what he is and is not a good starting running back. What we have no idea about is Perine.  Let's give him half a shot before discussing trading young talent. 

[RandyHolt]

8 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

What is this 'RB' thing you speak of?

 

Hail 

This reminds me of a Benny Hill line....

 

What's this thing called, love? 

[TimmySmith]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, if you saw him dominate a game or two, he probably wouldn't be asking for a trade. 

 

And I really think our OL woes are a result of plain, dumbass stupidity on the part of the coaching staff.  They just don't know what they want to do, and haven't taught it well.  I blame this on Gruden for not just finding a top-level OC and turning the offense over to him, instead trying to bandaid together himself, Callahan and Cavanaugh.  I just don't think that stupid decision can be repeated enough.  

 

In 2014, he did the same thing, before McVay really took over as OC in 2015, and they hired Cavanaugh as a QB coach as well.  Now, McVay left, and they're back in the same stupid structure with too much on Gruden, so it's sub-optimized everywhere.

 

Total idiocy.  

Yep.  All of the above.  Gruden wants to call plays, so he doesn't hire an OC.  There are no checks and balances, there is only him and his "crumpled up piece of paper" that the idiot WP writer thought was a sign of genius.  It's a sign of ADD.  Trust me, I've seen enough of it.  It's also a sign of the inability to convey your message to someone else.  Once Norv was off his script, he was in the weeds.  I am not even sure Gruden has the opening script.  He starts the game ankle deep. He needs an OC, stat.

[OVCChairman]

2 hours ago, dyst said:

I just find it odd that such hulking men can get pushed back so consistently. Is there no defensive line that they can collectively dominate? Are the players just plan weak or is it the run design that is awful? I can't tell, but this is pretty ridiculous. 

 

Personally I blame the coaching staff for not finding something that works. A different lineup if these guys don't fit your run scheme, but if you want to keep these guys then change your scheme to adjust to their talent.

 

If you don't want to change the scheme or the talent, then we have issues.

In all honesty they were facing one of the best D-Lines in football, and this week isn't going to be any easier.  Our O-line was just outmatched by a better D-line.  My assumption is Philly is going to make a LOT of other teams look similar to ours. 

[TouchdownSkin]

1 hour ago, TimmySmith said:

Yep.  All of the above.  Gruden wants to call plays, so he doesn't hire an OC.  There are no checks and balances, there is only him and his "crumpled up piece of paper" that the idiot WP writer thought was a sign of genius.  It's a sign of ADD.  Trust me, I've seen enough of it.  It's also a sign of the inability to convey your message to someone else.  Once Norv was off his script, he was in the weeds.  I am not even sure Gruden has the opening script.  He starts the game ankle deep. He needs an OC, stat.

 

"crumpled up piece of paper".........?????

 

I really feel bad that I don't have faith in Gruden, but I just don't.  I hope he proves me wrong!!

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, TimmySmith said:

Once Norv was off his script, he was in the weeds

Norv is one of the best OCs in the past 30 years.  

 

And one of the worst HCs.

 

interstingly, Norv always called plays as a HC.  It never worked for him.  He was a much better play caller when he was an OC vs HC. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

11 hours ago, freakofthesouth said:

 

Fournette

McCaffrey

Cook

Mixon

Kamara

Perine

Hunt

Cohen

 

 

All that list shows is that we drafted the worst RB of that entire group. Still, he may be better than what we've got so we should give him a good workload  moving forward. 

[justice98]

7 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I feel like Peterson is washed up or injury prone, or is a bad PR waiting to happen. Maybe a 6th or 7th if NO is desperate to get rid of him after Perine and Brown get their chance....  it cost NO nothing to get him, then they should get close to nothing for him in my GM manual.  I would like to see him dominate a game or 2 before any trade. I also doubt he would cure our OL woes... does he still have elite quickness and skills? Backs fall off a cliff it seems....

 

He got hurt last year, but there's been nothing to suggest he's "injury prone" or washed up.  He wasnt great when he was in there in 2016, but with Mckinnon and Asiata, the Vikes were dead last in the league in rushing and they have 4 new starters on the OL (including replacing TJ Clemmings who was the starting LT who we just picked up for nothing).  So perhaps it wasnt him that was the problem. Two years ago, he ran for 1500 yards and 11 TDs.  

 

So I think he's still got enough in the tank to be productive under the right circumstances.  I think he would be productive in terms of maximizing what's there, but if guys are gonna completely whiff on blocks, get blown up, and let DL be in the backfield, Barry Sanders in his prime wouldnt help us.

[gooseneck]

I think Dallas has a guy named Alfred Morris who we could get for a 1st round draft pick in 2018 and a 2 nd and a 4th in 2019.

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

12 hours ago, TheShredSkinz said:

Brown needs touches badly.

 

 

I said it last year, and it this offseason, Mack Brown should be our starter. Our at least get a fair shot. I would love to see a Brown-Perine 1-2 punch. If we still are getting little to no productivity, we should pursue a trade (that does not include Doctson).

11 hours ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

Trade a third round pick for Adrian Peterson..he wants out in New Orleans.

 

 

I thought we shouldve pursued AP when he hit the market. A 3rd may be too high though, depends on how much he has left in the tank. 

11 hours ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

Trade a third round pick for Adrian Peterson..he wants out in New Orleans.

 

 

I thought we shouldve pursued AP when he hit the market. A 3rd may be too high though, depends on how much he has left in the tank. 

11 hours ago, Taylorcooley1 said:

Trade a third round pick for Adrian Peterson..he wants out in New Orleans.

 

 

I thought we shouldve pursued AP when he hit the market. A 3rd may be too high though, depends on how much he has left in the tank.