The upcoming Changes on Defense (Manusky Hired) Tons of links

[CBass1724]

4 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

 

I'm tired of the 3-4.  Done with it.

 

Agreed.  Doesn't matter to me if we are in 4-3/Nickel packages a lot, the defensive roster has been built based off their ability in a 3-4.  Time to keep players like Kerrigan, Murphy, and Preston Smith on the line of scrimmage with their hand in the dirt exclusively.  None of them are 3-4 OLB's.  They are 4-3 DE's.  We can barely find ONE capable linebacker to play the middle, let alone the two required to run a 3-4.  Plus we can't even find a legit NT to plug up the middle.  This experiment has got to end soon.  We have too many square pegs to fit into these round holes on D.

 

7 minutes ago, skinfan2k said:

Why do fans care what scheme we run ?  When you dont have the horses, it doesnt matter which scheme you choose to run

I hear what you're saying.  But we care because in the 6 years we have run a 3-4, our best ranking on defense has been 17th in pts (2015) and 13th in yards (2011).  We have been absolute garbage on D since switching from a 4-3.  Not even an accidental top 10 showing in one of those categories. At least in 2012 we were 3rd in +/- turnover differential, even though that is an official anomaly.   

[CBass1724]

Nevermind, I was wrong and deleted my post. 

[crabbypatty]

3 hours ago, SemperFi Skins said:

Vic Fangio/Rex Ryan.... No to everyone else.

 

Prefer Fangio, even if he turned us down.... He turned the 32nd ranked Bears defense to 7th overall in one offseason and used to run a hell of a ship in San Fran.

 

Fangio please. But wouldn't mind Bowles.

I think Rex is used up like his brother..

 

Does Vic have ties to Scot, or just Harbaugh?

[Morneblade]

On 12/20/2016 at 3:29 PM, clskinsfan said:

I actually prefer the 3-4 as theoretically it allows you to have more speed and playmakers on the field in your base set. The only stipulation to a true 3-4 is that you MUST have a real NT. That NT needs to be huge and athletic. And there just are not that many human beings that fit that description alive in the world. I would not be against going back to the 4-3 base. But we dont have the personnel to run it right now. Although I am going to assume we will see big changes to the defensive side of the roster in the off season. Which would give a new DC the ability to set whatever base he wants. I have generally been against going crazy in free agency. But with what the Giants have done this year I am more open to it. 

 

That's the problem. Which is why a switch to a 4-3 is smart. You can get the guys you need to run the D easier. And we're closer to having 4-3 personell than we are 3-4.

 

On 12/20/2016 at 3:22 PM, skinfan2k said:

Why do fans care what scheme we run ?  When you dont have the horses, it doesnt matter which scheme you choose to run

 

Because it's a different race? And because you don't have a horse that is any good in once race doesn't mean he is just as bad in a different one. Fact is, most of our horses are better in the 4-3.

 

Give me a 4-3 guy at this point. If we are not going to bother trying to run a 3-4 properly, we just need to stop.

[skinfan2k]

and whats funny is that you dont understand we play a lot of 4-2-5 scheme.  

[RedskinsMayne]

i like res ryan, but i think he is over bought... so, i'm all in for Todd Boles. Aside from Norman And Trent the rest of the defense can burn to the ground....

[Morneblade]

4 minutes ago, skinfan2k said:

and whats funny is that you dont understand we play a lot of 4-2-5 scheme.  

 

No, everyone understands what we do in nickle. And why it's even a better idea to have a 4-3 base, because you don't have guys playing in spots they really are not suited for.

[skins island connection]

7 hours ago, MartinC said:

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade here but the prevailing opinion of all the beat guys based on what they are hearing is Joe Barry will be back next year. 

 

The blame is being put on lack of talent to work with not coaching. 

 Um, that rain is yellow.... Why?

1 hour ago, skinfan2k said:

and whats funny is that you dont understand we play a lot of 4-2-5 scheme.  

Although true, but at the same time, seeing a d-lineman dropping back into coverage doesn't really make it a dime pkg either.

 

 There's a big difference in having actual d-linemen up front, not 3 + a LB.

[skins island connection]

8 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Very lovely options, those are. Gotta have one of em. 

 

 What about having 2 of them?

Bowles was a safety, wasn't he? Its been so long ago I forgot.

Maybe Ryan and Bowles, or Lewis/Bowles ?

 

Honestly I'd rather see Williams; he gets the guys to hustle and hit, but I wouldn't want him to come in having to run a 3-4 defense that's been a failure since it was initiated here. This team NEVER had this many issues with the older way of doing things.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

6 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Why are you so hellbent on preaching the only thing that matters are the players and that scheme/strategy/coaching and development have nothing to do with it? 

Thank you.  Anyone who supports Barry or doesn't think another DC would perform better with the same personnel is insane.

 

Everyone here likes to hype how we move on from players/FAs when they aren't working out.  Why don't we extend that to coaches as well?  

 

Barry was a mistake.  Next man up.  And that man is Bowles.

 

 

[goskins10]

18 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 What about having 2 of them?

Bowles was a safety, wasn't he? Its been so long ago I forgot.

Maybe Ryan and Bowles, or Lewis/Bowles ?

 

Honestly I'd rather see Williams; he gets the guys to hustle and hit, but I wouldn't want him to come in having to run a 3-4 defense that's been a failure since it was initiated here. This team NEVER had this many issues with the older way of doing things.

 

Williams is a total POS and is dirty. The goal is to take out the trash not bring them in house.

 

Here is what Bowles Ds have done. He gets some improvement the first year then drops to worse than they were the year after.

AZ Def over the last 6 yrs:

2011 - 18th

2012 - 12th

2013 - 6th - Bowles

2014 - 24th - Bowles

2015 - 5th

2016 - 1st

So Bowles took the 12th ranked D and took them to 6th then 24th!

 

Let's look at the Jets D the last 4 yrs:

2013 - 11th

2014 - 6th

2015 - 4th - Bowles

2016 - 17th - Bowles - Not looking like it will improve but I guess it could.

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 Um, that rain is yellow.... Why?

 

If it's yellow - poor hydration!

[illone]

Todd Bowles interests me.  Ex-Redskin player.  Much better as a DC than a HC, so I don't judge him by this year's Jets struggles.

 

The problem still remains personnel, though.  We don't have Wilkerson or Williams on this defense, but perhaps Scotty will be busy this off-season upgrading that side of the ball.

 

Bowles is my vote.

[goskins10]

19 minutes ago, illone said:

Todd Bowles interests me.  Ex-Redskin player.  Much better as a DC than a HC, so I don't judge him by this year's Jets struggles.

 

The problem still remains personnel, though.  We don't have Wilkerson or Williams on this defense, but perhaps Scotty will be busy this off-season upgrading that side of the ball.

 

Bowles is my vote.

 

He was the DC in AZ. He took over a 12th ranked D, they went to 6th and then 24th under him. After he left it went 5th.

 

I agree you can't really judge him at the Jets in terms of Off - and probably STs since he is supposed to be a Defensive guy. But you can certainly judge his D. That's why you promote someone from coordinator. You expect them to put their system in place for the side of the ball they were coordinator. He took over a good D loaded with talent - and the draft pick that many in here say we should have taken, and they went form 6th to 4th to 17th and falling . Looks like a trend to me.

 

Who knows he may be  good coordinator. But his track record says otherwise.

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

35 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Who knows he may be  good coordinator. But his track record says otherwise.

You give Barry the injuries excuse, why not check out what Bowles dealt with in 2014?  

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/cardinals/2014/10/09/arizona-cardinals-bruce-arians-injuries-nfl/16997039/

 

His track record says he is a better DC than Joe Barry.  

[skinzplay]

There will be several openings this off-season for HCs. Ask yourselves this question: If we let Barry go, what is the likelihood that another team will hire him as DC? Slim and none. I'm still trying to understand the rationale for hiring him in the first place. Nothing about him inspires confidence that the 0-16 defense he oversaw was an anomaly. And I'm sick of the injuries excuse. That kept Haslett around a lot longer than he should've been around. Either you can coach or you can't. Maybe Barry needs to go down to the college level. I think he might actually have some success there. In this league, though, he's a mediocre position coach, not someone who warrants consideration or the responsibilities for running an entire defense.

 

And if Barry is retained and Kyle gets a HC gig, we can kiss KC goodbye.

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

You give Barry the injuries excuse, why not check out what Bowles dealt with in 2014?  

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/cardinals/2014/10/09/arizona-cardinals-bruce-arians-injuries-nfl/16997039/

 

His track record says he is a better DC than Joe Barry.  

 

I never mentioned barry. You did. I also never mentioned injuries. When ****ing about barry, you and others say injuries don't matter. Next man up. So does that not apply to bowles? Or is it only valid for coaches you like?

 

I was simply stating that if they move on from barry, bowles has some problems. His "track record" shows he shows improvement one year then seriously back tracks another. I don't totally dislike bowles. Certainly better than that ****head Williams. Have to think there may be better choices if they make a change.

[wilco_holland]

I don't think you can let Gruden have his 3th Dcoordinator. Sure Barry might not be the greatest but the talent is very poor. GM gave Barry a load of old crap at safety and Dline. So we can not presure the QB without blitzing and we have not safeties who can cover TE's and lock the passing game down. 

 

If you want to do a breakdown of D coaches you should look more to there coverage concepts. To max Josh Norman his strenghts you want to play a good amount of zone. Gus Bradley uses that. Lot of these other guys like to play straight up man to man I believe. 

[maskedsuperstar]

15 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

I actually prefer the 3-4 as theoretically it allows you to have more speed and playmakers on the field in your base set. The only stipulation to a true 3-4 is that you MUST have a real NT. That NT needs to be huge and athletic. And there just are not that many human beings that fit that description alive in the world. I would not be against going back to the 4-3 base. But we dont have the personnel to run it right now. Although I am going to assume we will see big changes to the defensive side of the roster in the off season. Which would give a new DC the ability to set whatever base he wants. I have generally been against going crazy in free agency. But with what the Giants have done this year I am more open to it. 

The Skins play a one gap 3-4 defense. A huge NT isn't needed. 

[Koolblue13]

I would actually prefer Barry over most in the OP. Our defense is obviously undermanned and looks confused a lot, buts so hard to overlook the complete lack of talent on the field.

 

I think Barry gets another year and I'm pretty blah either way about it.

 

This last loss was completely on our offense and nothing else. Defense kept us in game.

 

Games we've lost because of our defense, it's the same holes, players getting ripped open over and over. Slot corners with no safety or LB help. Running backs bulldozing our ILBs after flying untouched through our line.

 

Add DL,2 MLB and a FS and we'll look much better.

 

Could some of our late round guys continue to develop? Absolutely. I hope so. So what, they're not remotely starters. Get ****ing starters.

[RandyHolt]

Defense kept us in the game...... well our poor defense adds pressure to our offense... weekly.   Not a big deal perhaps, because the team has been constructed to win games on offense from a drafting and spending standpoint. But it does not excuse players on D consistently looking lethargic and lost, compared to the same defenses we face each week. That simple eye test is a measuring stick I use weekly since stats only look at sheer numbers.

 

Admittedly contrary to popular belief, I think that the overall talent level on any given team is largely equal. Parity abounds. The backup Carolina ILB you covet? He would appear in quicksand in Barry's scheme, since all our LBs have in his tenure. Even if a team is jack stacked on talent, it does not equal = super blow anyways. Otherwise, all our high ticket free agents we added over the decades would have vaulted us to greatness.

 

That said, our talent on D should be good enough to be average, especially with Kirk torching teams for 5K. We have good pass rushers and good corners. which is half the battle. I predict Barry will get a vote of confidence within weeks, only to finally succumb to the same problems next winter. 

 

Look no further than the assistant defensive coaches from Tampa 2002-2008 to determine who our DC will be in 2018.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

17 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

That is interesting. I heard Cooley this morning saying he thought it was more than likely that the team would be moving on from Barry. So there seems to be some mixed messages in the media. But what else is new as far as that goes.

 

I was listening to Cooley this morning, he's just guessing.  Mike Jones on the radio yesterday implied his take is based on sources that he believes Barry will be back.  doesn't mean it will go down that way but I trust Jones on a report for the moment (since he's a beat reporter) over Cooley who isn't a reporter.  Though we are stuck in a moment in time -- things can change in the next 2 weeks.

 

To play along, I was going through Bowles stats on another thread.  His defense is worse than ours with much bigger talent.  It's a personal quirk of mine but everything being equal I like a defensive coordinator with some fire to them -- and Bowles doesn't seem to have any.  He's chill-nonemotional type.  Kind of like Haz.  So he wouldn't be my pick.  

 

Actually all the guys mentioned have flaws.   I don't think there is an obvious magic wand guy out there.  We upgrade the defensive talent IMO is the be all and end all. Whatever we do with the coordinator position, I think ends up gravy. 

[Burgold]

Funny thing is, we have a huge advantage in that everyone believes we have no talent. If we have no talent then there's no need to stick to a system that doesn't work. We can go to a 4-3 base... there are few players holding us back. Trent Murphy was all set to be a DT this year... he probably can be a 4-3 DE. I suspect Kerrigan might be able to make the transition too. Do we really love either of them in space/in coverage anyway.

 

Besides, we've been playing a mock 4-3 most of the year anyway since we very frequently line up one of our backers on end and rush.

So, what I'm saying is that based on our personnel or lack thereof we don't have to restrict ourselves to any particular scheme. If there's a DC that we love... bring him in.

[clskinsfan]

3 hours ago, maskedsuperstar said:

The Skins play a one gap 3-4 defense. A huge NT isn't needed. 

 

We dont run base 3-4 very much really. My comment was more geared towards a true 3-4 team. It is not AS important to have that rare NT in a one gap. But you still need a huge man with quick burst at NT in a one gap 3-4 scheme. We dont have that guy right now. Baker would be the closest thing. 

[Dark Acre]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

We dont run base 3-4 very much really. My comment was more geared towards a true 3-4 team. It is not AS important to have that rare NT in a one gap. But you still need a huge man with quick burst at NT in a one gap 3-4 scheme. We dont have that guy right now. Baker would be the closest thing. 

And Baker doesn't want to play it.