Next Day Thread: Bea

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, KDawg said:

He didn’t really answer the question at all. 
 

Also… “we drafted Quan for the very specific reason that Kam got hurt last year [and not because he was the best choice for the team necessarily]” is wild to me. 

 

Yeah they were talking about that on talk radio, Ron basically dodged it. 

 

Ron's whole pitch for why he just remain coach moving forward seems to be centered on Howell -- hey you all you get that he's young and a work in progress.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

The Commanders’ rookie class has barely played. What’s going on?

 

“You’d like to think that the early-on picks … [are] going to be able to contribute one way or the other,” Coach Ron Rivera said after that draft. “And more so when you get into your top four — you want some sort of impact from them.”

 

 

Though it’s too early to fully evaluate the impact of Washington’s 2023 draft class, the results so far are strikingly different from those in recent years — and disappointing. The majority of the seven-player class is still developing, and the lone starter, first-round cornerback Emmanuel Forbes Jr., has struggled, costing the team in consecutive losses before getting benched.

Through Week 4, Washington’s rookies, including undrafted wide receiver Mitchell Tinsley, averaged just 10.7 snaps per game on offense and defense. Only four teams played their rookies less. If you take Forbes out of the equation, Washington’s rookies combined for just 13 offensive and defensive snaps. Sixth-round running back Chris Rodriguez Jr. played four; Tinsley, defensive end Andre Jones Jr. (seventh round) and interior offensive lineman Ricky Stromberg (third round) played three apiece.

 

Tackle Braeden Daniels, a fourth-round pick, is on injured reserve and won’t play this season, and fifth-round defensive end KJ Henry has been limited to 13 snaps on special teams. Second-round pick Quan Martin, a versatile safety/nickelback whom the team hoped would add depth and become a rotational piece in the secondary, hasn’t played a snap on defense, though he’s in line to get opportunities with starting safety Darrick Forrest headed to injured reserve.

 

More confounding: Rivera’s explanation for the rookies’ lack of playing time, which seems to stray from his belief a year ago.

 

“Just because you draft a guy in the second or third round doesn’t necessarily mean he’s an automatic starter,” he said last week. “When I came into the league, guys that were drafted in the second [or] third round weren’t expected to play right away.”

So what gives with the Class of 2023? At this point, it’s fair to question whether the personnel — not just the rookies but also the Commanders’ veteran acquisitions this year — fit what the team is trying to accomplish. After the draft, team executives felt confident their free agent signings and draft selections filled needs and afforded them positional flexibility — something they have emphasized, especially in the secondary, where defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio uses multiple players at multiple spots, and on the offensive line, where being able to play two positions is almost a must for reserves.

 

Martin’s versatility intrigued the team enough for it to draft him after taking another defensive back in the first round. Flexibility also was a factor in the selections of Daniels, who played guard and tackle in college and worked at tackle in training camp, and Stromberg, who can play guard and center. But neither has developed enough to fill immediate needs, and both may not make a significant impact for a while. In free agency, the Commanders signed Nick Gates and Andrew Wylie to multiyear deals to play center and tackle, respectively, and their contracts are constructed so that moving on from them, even after this year, could be difficult. (Guard Saahdiq Charles and backup tackle Cornelius Lucas are set to be free agents in March.)

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/09/commanders-rookies-not-playing/

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

He didn’t really answer the question at all. 
 

Also… “we drafted Quan for the very specific reason that Kam got hurt last year [and not because he was the best choice for the team necessarily]” is wild to me. 

Wild, stupid, what’s the difference really?

[Thinking Skins]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The Commanders’ rookie class has barely played. What’s going on?

 

“You’d like to think that the early-on picks … [are] going to be able to contribute one way or the other,” Coach Ron Rivera said after that draft. “And more so when you get into your top four — you want some sort of impact from them.”

 

 

Though it’s too early to fully evaluate the impact of Washington’s 2023 draft class, the results so far are strikingly different from those in recent years — and disappointing. The majority of the seven-player class is still developing, and the lone starter, first-round cornerback Emmanuel Forbes Jr., has struggled, costing the team in consecutive losses before getting benched.

Through Week 4, Washington’s rookies, including undrafted wide receiver Mitchell Tinsley, averaged just 10.7 snaps per game on offense and defense. Only four teams played their rookies less. If you take Forbes out of the equation, Washington’s rookies combined for just 13 offensive and defensive snaps. Sixth-round running back Chris Rodriguez Jr. played four; Tinsley, defensive end Andre Jones Jr. (seventh round) and interior offensive lineman Ricky Stromberg (third round) played three apiece.

 

Tackle Braeden Daniels, a fourth-round pick, is on injured reserve and won’t play this season, and fifth-round defensive end KJ Henry has been limited to 13 snaps on special teams. Second-round pick Quan Martin, a versatile safety/nickelback whom the team hoped would add depth and become a rotational piece in the secondary, hasn’t played a snap on defense, though he’s in line to get opportunities with starting safety Darrick Forrest headed to injured reserve.

 

More confounding: Rivera’s explanation for the rookies’ lack of playing time, which seems to stray from his belief a year ago.

 

“Just because you draft a guy in the second or third round doesn’t necessarily mean he’s an automatic starter,” he said last week. “When I came into the league, guys that were drafted in the second [or] third round weren’t expected to play right away.”

So what gives with the Class of 2023? At this point, it’s fair to question whether the personnel — not just the rookies but also the Commanders’ veteran acquisitions this year — fit what the team is trying to accomplish. After the draft, team executives felt confident their free agent signings and draft selections filled needs and afforded them positional flexibility — something they have emphasized, especially in the secondary, where defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio uses multiple players at multiple spots, and on the offensive line, where being able to play two positions is almost a must for reserves.

 

Martin’s versatility intrigued the team enough for it to draft him after taking another defensive back in the first round. Flexibility also was a factor in the selections of Daniels, who played guard and tackle in college and worked at tackle in training camp, and Stromberg, who can play guard and center. But neither has developed enough to fill immediate needs, and both may not make a significant impact for a while. In free agency, the Commanders signed Nick Gates and Andrew Wylie to multiyear deals to play center and tackle, respectively, and their contracts are constructed so that moving on from them, even after this year, could be difficult. (Guard Saahdiq Charles and backup tackle Cornelius Lucas are set to be free agents in March.)

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/09/commanders-rookies-not-playing/

I wonder if the do this yearly. Ron doesnt play rookes. He makes them earn it. I like that but it does make the class look bad overall. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I wonder if the do this yearly. Ron doesnt play rookes. He makes them earn it. I like that but it does make the class look bad overall. 

 

He's played rookies plenty.  Heck Jamin was thrown in initially to play Mike LB from the jump even though he didn't play Mike in college.  Robinson even coming off the gun shots played fairly quickly and before being shot he was slated as the starter.  Dotson played immediately.  Cole Turner was slated to play in rotation from the jump per injury.

 

Cosmi and St. Juste played right away.   Gibson and Curl right away.   And others were in rotation even as backups getting reps.

 

They don't really typically do much in FA so their upgrades each season by a mile come from the draft. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He's played rookies plenty.  Heck Jamin was thrown in initially to play Mike LB from the jump even though he didn't play Mike in college.  Robinson even coming off the gun shots played fairly quickly and before being shot he was slated as the starter.  Dotson played immediately.  Cole Turner was slated to play in rotation from the jump per injury.

 

Cosmi and St. Juste played right away.   Gibson and Curl right away.   And others were in rotation even as backups getting reps.

 

They don't really typically do much in FA so their upgrades each season by a mile come from the draft. 

First rounders are the exception. Even Ron mentioned that. I don't think anything you said contradicts what I said. Ron makes them earn it though. These guys balled out though. 

 

Curl did not play right away though. He had to wait til Collins was hurt. Before that he was on Teams. 

 

It might be the same this year with Stromberg and other guts but the story is not written. The adjustment to the NFL is not easy and he doens't like to throw them into it without a life preserver. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

First rounders are the exception. Even Ron mentioned that. I don't think anything you said contradicts what I said. Ron makes them earn it though. These guys balled out though. 

 

Curl did not play right away though. He had to wait til Collins was hurt. Before that he was on Teams. 

 

It might be the same this year with Stromberg and other guts but the story is not written. The adjustment to the NFL is not easy and he doens't like to throw them into it without a life preserver. 

 

 

 

Kam Curl played EVERY game his rookie year.

 

You don't recall the hype about Robinson starting pre gun shot and how he played right after?  Cosmi wasn't a first rounder.   I recall St. Juste getting early play.  Cole Turner was the toast of minicamp until his injury he was slated to play plenty.  Gibson played right away.   And some like Bates, etc even though they weren't starters helped immediately in rotation.

 

The beat people are talking about this topic non stop and writing stories about it not because its same old, same old, yawn but because its wildly different.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

If you just want to stick the debate on Curl, he's just one player.  But looking at his snaps he played all seaon long, his snaps increased as the season went on.  

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kam Curl played EVERY game his rookie year.

 

You don't recall the hype about Robinson starting pre gun shot and how he played right after?  Cosmi wasn't a first rounder.   I recall St. Juste getting early play.  Cole Turner was the toast of minicamp until his injury he was slated to play plenty.  Gibson played right away.   And some like Bates, etc even though they weren't starters helped immediately in rotation.

 

The beat people are talking about this topic non stop and writing stories about it not because its same old, same old, yawn but because its wildly different.

I was frustrated because Curl wasn't playing over Collins. That was the big debate. Why was Collins allowed to make those mistakes over and over again. I kept asking that. Then Curl came in and suddenly they stopped. They were trying to play Curl next to Collins but that meant sitting Curl sometimes because Collins was the high paid guy, remember the creation of the buffalo nickel. 

 

Yes and what I'm saying is that the other guys you mention is hype (to be believed)? These players were doing well on the off-season and likely out playing the other guys. So they were likely the number 1 , 2, or 3 guys and their spots. And deserved reps. Now we have a starting center who is the number 1. Quan Martin is behind 4 guys though. Other guy is injured, then we're into late picks. 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I was frustrated because Curl wasn't playing over Collins. That was the big debate. Why was Collins allowed to make those mistakes over and over again. I kept asking that. Then Curl came in and suddenly they stopped. They were trying to play Curl next to Collins but that meant sitting Curl sometimes because Collins was the high paid guy, remember the creation of the buffalo nickel. 

 

Yes and what I'm saying is that the other guys you mention is hype (to be believed)? These players were doing well on the off-season and likely out playing the other guys. So they were likely the number 1 , 2, or 3 guys and their spots. And deserved reps. Now we have a starting center who is the number 1. Quan Martin is behind 4 guys though. Other guy is injured, then we're into late picks. 

 

Quan was one of my favorite players in that draft.  He and Stromberg too made my top 20 "my guys" favorite players list.

 

But, once I saw the draft unfold and digesting it, it didn't make sense.  It even made less sense to me when Keim said during camp that he's Curl's backup.  When I saw Stromberg 3rd on the depth chart for center, it also didn't make sense to me.  When I saw they envisioned red shirting Braden Daniels, etc.   Almost the whole draft screamed to me we will see you guys in 2024 if that.

 

And for Ron who is on the hot seat.  And hasn't had a winning season yet.  To basically act like he's the Chiefs, we got a loaded roster, lets just build up depth and players for years later -- came off to me a mix of arrogant and delusional.  

 

I said it at the time and I feel it even more now this off season is the kicker for him losing his job.  Judging by his rhetoric, it feels like he's trying to convince Josh heck treat this as season 1 for him because we got a young QB.  But I doubt Harris falls for that.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I said it at the time and I feel it even more now this off season is the kicker for him losing his job.  Judging by his rhetoric, it feels like he's trying to convince Josh heck treat this as season 1 for him because we got a young QB.  But I doubt Harris falls for that.

 

I'm setting the over-under at 24 hours after that week 17 game ends that the whole staff and front office are dismissed.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

I'm setting the over-under at 24 hours after that week 17 game ends that the whole staff and front office are dismissed.

If things keep heading where they appear to be heading, I don’t think Ron makes it to week 17.  The bye is week 14, and even that feels a bit late given the temperatures around here.  But I feel like that’s where the moves get made as the season is likely over at that juncture.  Time to start getting the ducks in a row, publicly.

 

Of course, Ron’s entire tenure is Jeckyll and Hyde.  The team probably wins a few to cool things down but likely not sustainable.  I think that’s what is so infuriating - that the team

can play games like they did against Philly and come out 4 days later flat as a pancake and get stomped by a garbage team.  The only consistency is inconsistency.

 

[skinny21]

Fascinating that Philly and SF are two of the teams whose rookies have played fewer snaps.  

 

Theoretically, I don’t necessarily mind rookies not really playing if the draft is serving as a pipeline to replace or eventually upgrade talent.  So the idea that Stromberg has a starter ahead of him, our DE unit is deep enough that Henry/Jones aren’t getting much time, that doesn’t bother me too much… in theory.  Daniels was always gonna be a long shot to get time this year with 3 tackles ahead of him.

 

In our case though, Forbes and Quan have both struggled on the field (the latter during preseason) and is sure seems we missed the boat on OL in rd 2 and Gonzalez in rd 1.  I also think drafting a TE would have been the smart play given the class depth, even if they likely would have been challenging for the 5th spot and might not have seen the field yet even with Rogers going down and Thomas missing a game.

 

Different story, but I also tend to think Rodriguez should have seen some snaps by now.  While they seem to have a similar running style, he’s different from Robinson IMO in how fast he hits the line.  I think it would be a good change up.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

 

Fascinating that Philly and SF are two of the teams whose rookies have played fewer snaps.  

 

I feel that’s more indicative of how strong their rosters are where they can afford to draft for depth, as opposed to the Swiss cheese that is Ron’s Commanders.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

Fascinating that Philly and SF are two of the teams whose rookies have played fewer snaps.  

 

 

It seems intutive though that arguably the two most loaded rosters in the league would be the ones where rookies would have a hard time getting playing time.

 

 

[skinny21]

44 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I feel that’s more indicative of how strong their rosters are where they can afford to draft for depth, as opposed to the Swiss cheese that is Ron’s Commanders.

That’s my assumption, yes.  Though obviously other factors play in (generally speaking, I don’t know enough about Philly/SF) - injuries causing rookies to get more PT, drafting for need, depth of units (which is a facet of your point), how good the actual prospect is (or has shown to be during the offseason), etc.

I wasn’t initially too concerned about our guys getting time for various reasons, one of those being that I thought we had some decent players ahead of them (and that’s still the case with Rodriguez and our DEs at least), but signs aren’t looking very good for Forbes/Martin.  Stromberg’s a little trickier as Cosmi has played well and Gates… well, at least he’s no Charles/Wylie.  Unfortunate that Stromberg isn’t able to play LG and RT (I’m sure he could play LG if need be, or with practice time, but I doubt he’s a viable possibility there as of now).

 

OL aside, I still believe this is a pretty talented roster.  This last game certainly tested my belief though.  I think the problem is coaching and LB play on the defensive side, and OL problems are hard to overcome on offense (coupled with the combo of young qb and a new scheme).

[Conn]

Jabril Cox must be hot garbage in practice wow 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

Jabril Cox must be hot garbage in practice wow 

 

I was thinking the same or the ACL injury is still dogging him

[Warhead36]

I get rookies not playing if the guys in front of them are established vets or stars. Like, no rookie DL should be getting significant snaps. And I wouldn't play any rookie WR over McLaurin.

 

But our Safety and OL play suck. You can't tell me Martin or Stromberg can't be better.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I was thinking the same or the ACL injury is still dogging him

 

I don't think they're a better defense without Young necessarily. I think they're a better defense without Young OR Sweat. They do the same things, including sometimes poor edge discipline on run. Having at least one end who is sound on the edge allows the linebackers to flow more freely the other way without panic checking. If our LBs were better, this wouldn't matter as much. But with this LB corps, it does.

 

The issue is the linebackers even moreso than the coverage structure. I don't know why so many people gloss over that.

 

But it's compounded by two edge defenders who are rush first, contain third. Yes, "second" is missing on purpose

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I don't think they're a better defense without Young necessarily. I think they're a better defense without Young OR Sweat. They do the same things, including sometimes poor edge discipline on run. Having at least one end who is sound on the edge allows the linebackers to flow more freely the other way without panic checking. If our LBs were better, this wouldn't matter as much. But with this LB corps, it does.

 

The issue is the linebackers even moreso than the coverage structure. I don't know why so many people gloss over that.

 

But it's compounded by two edge defenders who are rush first, contain third. Yes, "second" is missing on purpose

 

Keim was going on and on in his last podcast about a major difference with this defense and the 49ers is the 49ers have stud LBs behind their D line, unlike this team.

 

If only there were easy solutions in the last draft to upgrade that spot...

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Leonard Washington]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

They were trying to play Curl next to Collins but that meant sitting Curl sometimes because Collins was the high paid guy, remember the creation of the buffalo nickel. 

 

Collins and the coaching staff really screwed themselves.  Collins as a buffalo nickle seemed to have the potential to be our best "linebacker".  He was making plays and not getting dusted by WRs as much.

 

Speaking of the struggling LBs, what are Hudson, Harris or Mayo doing?

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, Leonard Washington said:

Collins and the coaching staff really screwed themselves.  Collins as a buffalo nickle seemed to have the potential to be our best "linebacker".  He was making plays and not getting dusted by WRs as much.

 

Speaking of the struggling LBs, what are Hudson, Harris or Mayo doing?

Riding the pine. 

[Leonard Washington]

13 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Riding the pine. 

Too bad.  Hudson played well against Dallas last year.  The assistant/associate coaches need to be hyping up guys like him and advocating for their playing time.  Linebacker and oline are two spots where a younger guy couldn't be much worse, but they have more upside.

 

Mayo isn't all that but he could have helped against the run last week.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Leonard Washington

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

It seems intutive though that arguably the two most loaded rosters in the league would be the ones where rookies would have a hard time getting playing time.

 

 

Absolutely.  But… I still think it’s interesting.  We always hear about drafts getting judged by the number of starters from the class.  And of course, Philly is seen as having a special FO.  I also think a lot of us thought we had a pretty strong roster, even if we had serious questions about the OL and LBs (and Howell, at the time).

 

On the other hand, there’s the idea of the draft serving more so as a pipeline of talent.  So adding to deeper units for example, while it might be disappointing in the short term, can bear fruit long term, not to mention ST.  This would obviously include drafting guys in preparation of losing players, as well as improving competition/depth (and ST). 

 

Not that it’s inherently an either/or proposition.  And to be clear, the following is not to defend this past draft or anything - I’m pretty disappointed in how it played out.  Its possible the draft class looks a lot better in the long run… not that I’m holding my breath on that front.

 

Specific to this team, we (the fans at least) have placed a lot of emphasis on immediate starters and needs.  And to this point, before Stromberg starting playing guard in the preseason games (and holding his own), there was a lot of negativity about drafting OL guys that the staff didn’t “plan” to play this year.  And of course, you have situations like we have with Martin - he hasn’t earned a starting spot, but it’s looking like he might indeed be getting starting reps.  Not exactly what we mean by landing a starter in the draft (unless he shocks us all and plays well of course).  

 

Again, specific to this team, we’re apparently also running into coaching/scheme issues in relation to our draft.  Broadly speaking - we’re not running the ball much so Rodriguez hasn’t factored in, we’re playing man so Forbes has looked poor (though that might be the only reason), we moved Quan all over so he didn’t settle in a role, we cross-trained Stromberg at C/RG so we can’t really try him out at LG.  And then of course we drafted 2 DEs to a pretty deep unit.

 

Bottom line, its going to be interesting to see how it all plays out.  I can’t say I’d be too surprised if long term we wind up with 2 starters - Forbes and Stromberg, 3 heavy contributors - Martin, Rodriguez and one of our DEs, and 2 depth guys in Daniels and our other DE.  It’s possible we get even more out of the group of course, and maybe more likely we get less out of them.  On the whole though, not shoring up the OL this year, not taking advantage of a deep TE class, trading up for Henry (unless he shows a great deal of growth), and seemingly not utilizing these guys properly… questionable decision-making at minimum.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by skinny21