2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[RabidFan]

21 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

Sun Tzu once said: He who hides head in sand, gets ****ed in ass.

"The Art of Sore"

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim did a podcast with Bram.

 

A.  The defense has some loud guys.  The offense is just about all quiet dudes including the QBs.  So Terry would be the vocal one to defend a teammate as what happened yesterday in practice.

 

B. Keim seems to be in the crowd (Nicki J., Michael Phillips talked about this yesterday) as to believing more in Howell than the O line judging by his comments in that podcast among others.

 

C.  Howell has had an up and down camp.  But Keim likes his chances.  Bram too -- he was more 50-50.  Both said he looked better than Wentz did last camp.

 

D. Keim likes Cosmi's camp.  Gave some props to Paul making progress the more he plays.

 

E. Keim thinks Wylie has been up and down and really struggles with Montez Sweat.  His went a pass rusher in Sweat's style probably isn't Wylie's wheel house.

 

F.  Bram mentioned that maybe Daniels doesn't deserve to make this team.  Keim thinks he does because he was a 4th round pick.

 

G.  Bram thinks Daniels might be a surprise cut.  Keim seemed to suggest maybe Larsen gets cut if he can't show he can play guard.  He thinks Larsens ability to play guard is central for him to being a valuable backup.

 

H. Curl having a big camp and looking like a playmarker (picks) which is something he hasn't been in his career.

 

I.  Allen looks bigger-better.  Ditto Payne.  Ditto Chase, Sweat.   I've heard fromn others ala the Finlay podcast Allen in particular looks like he's going to have an even bigger season.

 

J. Neither seems high on the O line.   Bram weeks ago seemed higher on it.  Now he's saying it will be better than last year but he's not sure until it plays out.  Keim chimed in saying it was really bad last year suggesting a little better than that isn't good enough.  But its TBD. 

 

K.  They are in love with the speed and talent in the secondary.  

 

L.  Brian Robinson having a bug camp

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Hooper]

Everybody keeps saying how much better Howells looks than Wentz did in camp last year.

 

Which is nice.... except not everybody was saying Wentz looked bad last year.  A lot of "up and down, but man the arm", etc... The narrative that he was bad... it was not one.

 

I do remember Logan Paulsen souring on him and he's probably the most high on Howell so maybe that's good.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Hooper said:

Everybody keeps saying how much better Howells looks than Wentz did in camp last year.

 

Which is nice.... except not everybody was saying Wentz looked bad last year.  A lot of "up and down, but man the arm", etc... The narrative that he was bad... it was not one.

 

I do remember Logan Paulsen souring on him and he's probably the most high on Howell so maybe that's good.

 

 

 

Yeah i know.  Last time it was about hot and cold practices from Wentz.  Now its characterized as it was a full blown disaster at the time.   But that's not how it was sold in real time.  Agree that Paulsen put the most red flags up.  Bram said on Keim's last podcast that the team behind the scenes worked to sell the media on Wentz as to those practices.

 

As for Howell, I'd say going purely on the reports the overall vibe i get is it might be somewhere of a mix of the Kirk Cousin 2014 and 2015 seasons combined.  Ups and downs. 

 

Keim in particular sells it by saying he's young and ups and downs come with the turf.  But they like his intangibles and talent and incremental progression.  So hang in there with Howell during the season.

 

I don't mind riding with that thought.  I don't think Ron did Howell any favors with this O line.  And the schedule looks tough.  So i'll be patient with him.  

 

Wentz was a finished product whereas Howell is a work in progress.

 

I am not too worried about it.  If Howell plays well, we are set.  If not its in theory a good draft for QBs in 2024.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

FWIW, They discussed the QB's this year vs last on The Junkies this week and played a clip of a recent Paulsen podcast with him saying this year's QB's are a bizzillion times better. Paulsen did call out Wentz as an example. 

[DWinzit]

30 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim did a podcast with Bram.

 

A.  The defense has some loud guys.  The offense is just about all quiet dudes including the QBs.  So Terry would be the vocal one to defend a teammate as what happened yesterday in practice.

 

B. Keim seems to be in the crowd (Nicki J., Michael Phillips talked about this yesterday) as to believing more in Howell than the O line judging by his comments in that podcast among others.

 

C.  Howell has had an up and down camp.  But Keim likes his chances.  Bram too -- he was more 50-50.  Both said he looked better than Wentz did last camp.

 

D. Keim likes Cosmi's camp.  Gave some props to Paul making progress the more he plays.

 

E. Keim thinks Wylie has been up and down and really struggles with Montez Sweat.  His went a pass rusher in Sweat's style probably isn't Wylie's wheel house.

 

F.  Bram mentioned that maybe Daniels doesn't deserve to make this team.  Keim thinks he does because he was a 4th round pick.

 

G.  Bram thinks Daniels might be a surprise cut.  Keim seemed to suggest maybe Larsen gets cut if he can't show he can play guard.  He thinks Larsens ability to play guard is central for him to being a valuable backup.

 

H. Curl having a big camp and looking like a playmarker (picks) which is something he hasn't been in his career.

 

I.  Allen looks bigger-better.  Ditto Payne.  Ditto Chase, Sweat.   I've heard fromn others ala the Finlay podcast Allen in particular looks like he's going to have an even bigger season.

 

J. Neither seems high on the O line.   Bram weeks ago seemed higher on it.  Now he's saying it will be better than last year but he's not sure until it plays out.  Keim chimed in saying it was really bad last year suggesting a little better than that isn't good enough.  But its TBD. 

 

K.  They are in love with the speed and talent in the secondary.  

 

L.  Brian Robinson having a bug camp

 

 

Hated it when I heard the Daniels stuff. What a freaking waste of a pick, one I thought felt a little bit of a desperation move since they waited until the 3rd to address the OL, felt they needed to hit it again with whomever was next on their OL list. There were a number of players I had way higher than Daniels that went just before and right after his selection. I may have been more shocked by that pick than when Quan's name was called over Mauch or JMS.

 

They are correct though, with so many young inexperienced players on the roster, it is hard to add another in Daniels that doesn't appear capable of playing at this time. Add that with 2 Center only backups and there is a real lack of quality backups at the other positions. 

 

Sounds like Wylie should be lining up against Sweat a lot more. We need to be somewhat sound out there. Figure out how to handle guys like him...quickly!

 

It seems like a stretch to think Larsen can play G since he has been a true Center only

[DWinzit]

6 hours ago, HigSkin said:

😂😂

 

Colts increased his arm strength I see...

[Skinsinparadise]

48 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Hated it when I heard the Daniels stuff. What a freaking waste of a pick, one I thought felt a little bit of a desperation move since they waited until the 3rd to address the OL, felt they needed to hit it again with whomever was next on their OL list. There were a number of players I had way higher than Daniels that went just before and right after his selection. I may have been more shocked by that pick than when Quan's name was called over Mauch or JMS.

 

 

Might be early to write him off.  But agree its not a good sign.  I didn't hate that pick.  But I had a bunch I'd have taken over him at that spot.  Haener,  McGuire, Herbig, Abdullah

 

In the 5th, Rush, Tune, Thompson-Robinson, Whyle, Mallory.

 

But will see.

 

48 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

 

They are correct though, with so many young inexperienced players on the roster, it is hard to add another in Daniels that doesn't appear capable of playing at this time. Add that with 2 Center only backups and there is a real lack of quality backups at the other positions. 

 

 

That's Keim's point.  Backups are young.  Stromberg is a center.  They need the other center backup to plug in guard if need be.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Daniels was always going to be a big WIP with his lack of size and play strength for this level. If he's struggled in everything then that's different. Like if he can't pick up stunts or twists well despite his athleticism (which is his best thing), or connect on the 2nd level, or get out in front on reach blocks...then that's a big problem.

 

As long as he shows the movement is still there, then I think you gotta stash him on the roster for a year to train up for a full season and get stronger.

 

You drafted him for the movement skills. I didn't think he was likely to play as a rookie anyways.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Until you consider absolutely none of them, especially the junkies have absolutely no idea what in the hell they are looking at.  The only guy who has any remote amount of credibility on 106.7 on this topic would be BMitch, who, see above, also said if you're not game-planning, it's hard to look good.

 

Look, it could very well be the OL is an absolute abomination.  

 

They could also be ok. 

 

We're not going to know for a bit.

 

Listening to 106.7 is generally bad for your football IQ and your health in general.  

I wish it was just the Junks flinging poo against the wall.  It’s not really the hosts, it’s everyone they have on that’s been present at camp, observing the OL.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

41 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Hated it when I heard the Daniels stuff. What a freaking waste of a pick, one I thought felt a little bit of a desperation move since they waited until the 3rd to address the OL, felt they needed to hit it again with whomever was next on their OL list. There were a number of players I had way higher than Daniels that went just before and right after his selection. I may have been more shocked by that pick than when Quan's name was called over Mauch or JMS.

 

They are correct though, with so many young inexperienced players on the roster, it is hard to add another in Daniels that doesn't appear capable of playing at this time. Add that with 2 Center only backups and there is a real lack of quality backups at the other positions. 

 

Sounds like Wylie should be lining up against Sweat a lot more. We need to be somewhat sound out there. Figure out how to handle guys like him...quickly!

 

It seems like a stretch to think Larsen can play G since he has been a true Center only

 

Sweat's measureables are out of this world. Not many in the league are built like him. Anyone know if Wylie is looking better against Young, Henry, Smith-Williams etc?

 

This seems to be implying Wylie just can't handle Sweats rare combo of power and elite length.

 

For those that don't remember...Sweats arm length is in the 100th percentile. 💯! There's literally no Edge in the NFL with his profile.

 

Wylie struggling against him isn't as bad cause at least he's on our team...so silver linings?

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Daniels was always going to be a big WIP with his lack of size and play strength for this level. If he's struggled in everything then that's different. Like if he can't pick up stunts or twists well despite his athleticism (which is his best thing), or connect on the 2nd level, or get out in front on reach blocks...then that's a big problem.

 

As long as he shows the movement is still there, then I think you gotta stash him on the roster for a year to train up for a full season and get stronger.

 

You drafted him for the movement skills. I didn't think he was likely to play as a rookie anyways.

I don't see any of us arguing your point, the issue is how many can we stash...stash being really not ready for prime time. And if he goes on waivers in hiopes of moving him to the PS, will he clear? 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Daniels was always going to be a big WIP with his lack of size and play strength for this level. If he's struggled in everything then that's different. Like if he can't pick up stunts or twists well despite his athleticism (which is his best thing), or connect on the 2nd level, or get out in front on reach blocks...then that's a big problem.

 

As long as he shows the movement is still there, then I think you gotta stash him on the roster for a year to train up for a full season and get stronger.

 

You drafted him for the movement skills. I didn't think he was likely to play as a rookie anyways.

 

I talked about Daniels on and off on the draft thread before we took him.  He definitely needs to get bigger-stronger.  Probably means nothing but I recall from the McGinn reports he had the lowest Wonderlic scores among the guards, it was in the single digits.  

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Sweat's measureables are out of this world. Not many in the league are built like him. Anyone know if Wylie is looking better against Young, Henry, Smith-Williams etc?

 

This seems to be implying Wylie just can't handle Sweats rare combo of power and elite length.

 

For those that don't remember...Sweats arm length is in the 100th percentile. 💯! There's literally no Edge in the NFL with his profile.

 

Wylie struggling against him isn't as bad cause at least he's on our team...so silver linings?

Yeah, my point was he should be looking to line up against Sweat constantly if in particular is the one he is having the difficulty with. 

 

As to Sweat, I am not sure there was a bigger fan him on this site than me leading up to him being drafted. He is due to explode this season...ooops, a little homerism slipping out, lol. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Sweat's measureables are out of this world. Not many in the league are built like him. Anyone know if Wylie is looking better against Young, Henry, Smith-Williams etc?

 

Paulsen said during minicamp (when Chase and Sweat didn't participate) Wylie struggled against the backup D lineman but didn't name the players. 

[DWinzit]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Paulsen said during minicamp (when Chase and Sweat didn't participate) Wylie struggled against the backup D lineman but didn't name the players. 

Ew, so he is struggling against all the edge guys???....

[UK Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

L.  Brian Robinson having a bug camp

 

 

I love you SIP and really appreciate your sterling work keeping us all updated, but as someone who hates bugs... aarghh!! I really feel for Robinson now!

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Just now, DWinzit said:

I don't see any of us arguing your point, the issue is how many can we stash...stash being really not ready for prime time. And if he goes on waivers in hiopes of moving him to the PS, will he clear? 

 

Oh for sure, I'm not saying I was being contrary to anyone's complaints, just a slightly different perspective.

 

He's a 4th rounder, some team is going to claim him on waivers. Easy "win" for that GM.

[SkinsFTW]

8 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

He's a 4th rounder, some team is going to claim him on waivers. Easy "win" for that GM.

 

But he was a RR 4th rounder. Dude probably would have been available in the 6th. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I talked about Daniels on and off on the draft thread before we took him.  He definitely needs to get bigger-stronger.  Probably means nothing but I recall from the McGinn reports he had the lowest Wonderlic scores among the guards, it was in the single digits.  

 

Why the hell did the team draft him then? Single digit wonderlic players almost never pan out right?  People generally say wonderlic is just noise for non-QB's...unless it's at the bottom. Also the OL position has the highest average Wonderlic scores, so single digits for that is extremely noticeable.

[Going Commando]

Daniels is not going to get cut unless Mason Brooks has the camp and preseason of his life.  They'll definitely keep 10 OLs.  Daniels will get redshirt and Brooks will end up on the PS.

 

They're only going to roster two QBs and three backs I bet.  Four TEs if they can stay healthy.  Leaves room for six receivers and 10 OLs.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Why the hell did the team draft him then? Single digit wonderlic players almost never pan out right?  People generally say wonderlic is just noise for non-QB's...unless it's at the bottom. Also the OL position has the highest average Wonderlic scores, so single digits for that is extremely noticeable.

 

lol, I am not hung up on Wonderlic scores but his was hard to forget because they highlighted it in the McGinn report about the O line.

 

Daniels as you mentioned can move, he's undersized though.  Has potential.  But apparently not having a hot camp.

 

 

[burgngold fan]

So daniels having a bad camp on a team that has a bad ol.  But everyone is worried he gets snatched up and not make the practice squad!  Not sure I understand that logic!  

[skinny21]

23 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ironically Keim delved into it in his last podcast, he came off as someone who didn't like it.  Neither do I at guard.    Larsen at guard?  Not sure.   Stromberg they see as a center and I agree with them on that.  Daniels is young and a bit undersized and seems to be stuggiling. 

 

 

Maybe.  I spent a lot of time on Stromberg, he was one of my draft man crushes.  He struck me more a natural center than a guard.  For example, Tippman to me looked like a guard-center, could play either spot.  Stromberg's skill set, especially his combo blocking, snaps-smarts, seem to fit center better than guard.   I am sure in a pinch he could play guard but IMHO its not likely his natural spot.

 

I don't take Ron's rhetoric that seriously anymore.  What he says publicly and what happens are often too different things.  So I take Keim's here is what they think privately comments much more seriously than what Ron said months ago.

 

Yeah, I can’t really take too seriously the idea that Larsen could (legitimately) help at guard, and I don’t think Daniels will be ready soon, so I wouldn’t factor in those two in this regard.  

 

As to Stromberg, I have no real personal opinion of him in terms of guard capabilities.  My mention of Ron mentioning his potential to play guard, while technically public, was during the draft video (talking to one of the Martys maybe?) - ie not directed at the camera/public… seemed serious about it (but also that Stromberg would need some time to develop).  

 

The idea that Daniels and Stromberg will make the squad, but aren’t going to be ready anytime soon, is certainly a knock on our depth.  On the other hand, we’ve got a combo of proven depth at T and C (Lucas and Larsen), and those two also then allow Wylie or Gates to move if need be.  So our guard depth is Charles, Paul, Cosmi, Wylie and Gates.  I’m not optimistic about Charles (talent and health-wise), Paul is unproven, and Cosmi keeps getting banged up, so while the latter two offer some promise, it’s a sketchy group.  On the flip side, Wylie/Gates give you some proven insurance there, though I know its not black and white (continuity concerns, changing out two positions if one goes down, them possibly playing guard position they’re less used to).

 

My take is that while I think losing Cosmi would definitely hurt a bit, the below permutations aren’t all that different (though the nuance above could factor in).

Leno-Paul-Gates-Cosmi-Wylie

Leno-Gates-Larsen-Cosmi-Wylie

Leno-Charles-Gates-Wylie-Lucas

Leno-Charles-Gates-Paul-Wylie

and so on.  None of them really promising, but none of them looking like a disaster either, which is a pretty decent sign for depth IMO.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Rocky21 said:

Good news.  You won’t have to wait too long before the sucking is confirmed.  Ron has screwed the pooch on his forming of the O line.

Well, if it's ok with you, I'm just going to wait the 5-7 weeks to confirm it before assuming a bunch of amateurs are correct in their assessment.

 

They could be, but we thought the OL was going to stink like the south end of a north bound skunk in 2020, and it didn't.  Thought the same thing in 2021, and it didn't then either.  It did last year.

 

I think OL play might be one of the hardest things to predict.  It's one of the units where individual talent is important, but how the group works together is as important.  And there are 4 new players in starting positions on the line in a new scheme. 

4 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Yes, I don't take their stuff as bible, but those are some shockingly low ratings, only slightly better than Andrew Norwell.

I'll take this as evidence number 4,293,124 that they have absolutely no idea what the hell they are looking at.