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2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

Conn

By Conn
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Rex Tomb

Rex Tomb

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11 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

What the hell is a “Skintangible”? Is that something I’m gonna immediately regret the moment I google it? 😆

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is an old Larry Michael saying - or am I thinking of Cropptangibles (after the sponsor cropp-metcalf plumbing service)?

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

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Ranking 2023 NFL contenders by tiers: NFC headlined by Eagles, Cowboys, 49ers entering new season

Sorting all 16 clubs in the conference

Tier 2: The growing contenders (3)

Detroit Lions, Seattle Seahawks, New York Giants

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Two of these three were surprise 2022 playoff teams, and the other is angling to snap a six-year streak of non-postseason action. In other words, none of them feel particularly trustworthy, and yet, on paper, they register as organizations built for another step forward. Let's start with the Giants: it's still unclear whether QB Daniel Jones has the help or wherewithal to stretch the field as a passer, but if Brian Daboll can guide a road playoff win with last year's makeshift setup, adding vets like Darren Waller and Parris Campbell shouldn't hurt. With underrated, ascending youth on both sides of the line, they should at least be scrappy again.

Like the G-Men, the Seahawks are betting their QB's breakout wasn't a fluke, and while Geno Smith reverted to some turnover tendencies down the stretch, he's got deep skill-position support and a defense that looks vastly improved. Pete Carroll might finally have a stingy group again, adding physicality up front (Dre'Mont Jones), in the middle (Bobby Wagner) and on the back end (Devon Witherspoon). The Lions are just as promising, surrounding Jared Goff with a sturdy line and young playmakers like Jahmyr Gibbs and Amon-Ra St. Brown. Their "D" also got more physical with a secondary makeover. It's been a long time, however, since they had such high expectations to meet, and Goff has his own hurdles to clear when it comes to off-script, big-game deliverance.

 

Tier 3: The wild card wanderers (5)

Minnesota Vikings, Green Bay Packers, New Orleans Saints, Carolina Panthers, Atlanta Falcons

 

Call this the middle ground, full of teams destined to hover around .500 and tease -- or surprise -- with a playoff push. The Vikings almost never bottom out, and they've still got top-shelf offensive weaponry between Kirk Cousins, Justin Jefferson and T.J. Hockenson, but Brian Flores' arrival as a more aggressive schemer can only do so much to mask a stripped-down defense. The Packers have dropped off the radar since trading Aaron Rodgers, and their pass catchers are very young, but Jordan Love's lively arm, plus a formidable ground game, should keep them feisty. The Saints still tout a suffocating "D" and should enjoy Derek Carr's gutsy leadership at QB, but key players like Alvin Kamara and Michael Thomas have questionable availability. The Panthers figure to endure the hiccups of a reset, lacking elite weapons, but with a growing "D" and the poised pairing of Bryce Young and Frank Reich at QB and head coach, they may have the moxie to make noise in the NFC South. The Falcons have a slew of young playmakers like Bijan Robinson and Kyle Pitts, but Arthur Smith is married to an old-school recipe of winning on the ground, with the unproven Desmond Ridder leading the charge.

Tier 4: The restoration projects (4)

Chicago Bears, Los Angeles Rams, Washington Commanders, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

This group features four franchises with very different track records but equally uncertain futures. The Bears finally added help for the dynamic but still-developing Justin Fields this offseason, but it remains to be seen how much better they'll be under defensive coach Matt Eberflus. The Commanders have legit weapons in Terry McLaurin and the defensive front, but coach Ron Rivera, who hasn't led a winning season since 2017, is betting on a total unknown at QB in Sam Howell. The Buccaneers are equally, if not more, talented on "D," but they're also in QB limbo with Baker Mayfield replacing Tom Brady. The Rams, meanwhile, have the coach (Sean McVay), the QB (Matthew Stafford) and the star wideout (Cooper Kupp) but very little else, dumping many of their high-profile defenders in the name of long-term growth.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ranking-2023-nfl-contenders-by-tiers-nfc-headlined-by-eagles-cowboys-49ers-entering-new-season/

 
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philibusters

philibusters

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To me the only teams in the NFC in total rebuild are the Rams and Cardinals.  I would combine the rest of tier 4 with tier 3 as wildcard hopefuls.  We went 8-8-1 and only lost 5 starters from last year (Cole Holcomb, Bobby McCainn, Andrew Norwell, Trai Turner, and Taylor Heinicke).   Holcomb is probably the best player out of those 5 and he missed half the season last year.  I think we are definitely a wildcard hopeful.  We do play a tough schedule.  Lets say the schedule 1.5 games harder.  That would take us from 8-8-1 to 7-10, which would still put in that wildcard hopeful area.  I think the national media is really down on Howell.  Taylor Heinicke who 9 games for us (Wentz 7 and Howell 1) had a PFF grade of 49.  The idea that we are going to have a huge downgrade at QB is overblown.  We finished with a better record than the Packers and I think they are much more likely to have a major downgrade at QB than us.

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Koolblue13

Koolblue13

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16 hours ago, Conn said:

Through almost 4 entire episodes of “Quarterback” so far and seeing copious amounts of time with Patrick Mahomes in the locker room, meeting rooms, practice fields, and on the sidelines during games——I have not one iota of evidence that Eric Bieniemy actually existed at all with the Chiefs as a discrete being during this time. Ghost.

7ski4b.jpg

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samy316

samy316

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21 minutes ago, philibusters said:

To me the only teams in the NFC in total rebuild are the Rams and Cardinals.  I would combine the rest of tier 4 with tier 3 as wildcard hopefuls.  We went 8-8-1 and only lost 5 starters from last year (Cole Holcomb, Bobby McCainn, Andrew Norwell, Trai Turner, and Taylor Heinicke).   Holcomb is probably the best player out of those 5 and he missed half the season last year.  I think we are definitely a wildcard hopeful.  We do play a tough schedule.  Lets say the schedule 1.5 games harder.  That would take us from 8-8-1 to 7-10, which would still put in that wildcard hopeful area.  I think the national media is really down on Howell.  Taylor Heinicke who 9 games for us (Wentz 7 and Howell 1) had a PFF grade of 49.  The idea that we are going to have a huge downgrade at QB is overblown.  We finished with a better record than the Packers and I think they are much more likely to have a major downgrade at QB than us.

 

Packers have a better coach than us, and Jordan Love is just as unproven as Sam Howell.  The NFC North is much less of an obstacle as the NFCE is.  All things considered, I could see the Packers getting to 9-10 wins, more so than I can this team, and that's because the Packers have a better O-Line, MUCH better coach, and a QB that will be in Year 4 of his offensive system.  If the Packers had better offensive weapons, I might actually pick them to win the NFCN.  They have a great RB room, but their WR's are young and unproven.  The Lions are the Lions, so them being a lock to win the NFCN is a bit premature.  I think the Vikings will take a BIG step back this year, and they'll be on the losing end of those close games as opposed to winning every close game last year.

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mhd24

mhd24

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16 minutes ago, samy316 said:

 

Packers have a better coach than us, and Jordan Love is just as unproven as Sam Howell.  The NFC North is much less of an obstacle as the NFCE is.  All things considered, I could see the Packers getting to 9-10 wins, more so than I can this team, and that's because the Packers have a better O-Line, MUCH better coach, and a QB that will be in Year 4 of his offensive system.  If the Packers had better offensive weapons, I might actually pick them to win the NFCN.  They have a great RB room, but their WR's are young and unproven.  The Lions are the Lions, so them being a lock to win the NFCN is a bit premature.  I think the Vikings will take a BIG step back this year, and they'll be on the losing end of those close games as opposed to winning every close game last year.

 

 

They do have Joe Berry as the DC.  I like Love actually.  However, their OL is filled with question marks considering the injury issues with Bhatiari and RT being a black hole there for years.  The interior is good however.

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samy316

samy316

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3 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

They do have Joe Berry as the DC.  I like Love actually.  However, their OL is filled with question marks considering the injury issues with Bhatiari and RT being a black hole there for years.  The interior is good however.

 

Barry was actually damn good his first year with the Packers, which was shocking in and of itself.  Their defense regressed some last year, so we'll see if that defense continues to slide or if it goes back to what it looked like in 2021.  If Bahktiari looks like he did before the injuries, that will really help their O-Line.  I already rate it higher than Washington's O-Line, even with the question marks.

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philibusters

philibusters

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23 minutes ago, samy316 said:

 

Packers have a better coach than us, and Jordan Love is just as unproven as Sam Howell.  The NFC North is much less of an obstacle as the NFCE is.  All things considered, I could see the Packers getting to 9-10 wins, more so than I can this team, and that's because the Packers have a better O-Line, MUCH better coach, and a QB that will be in Year 4 of his offensive system.  If the Packers had better offensive weapons, I might actually pick them to win the NFCN.  They have a great RB room, but their WR's are young and unproven.  The Lions are the Lions, so them being a lock to win the NFCN is a bit premature.  I think the Vikings will take a BIG step back this year, and they'll be on the losing end of those close games as opposed to winning every close game last year.

 

The other big problem with the Packers is their DC Joe Berry.  They have a talented roster on defense.   They essentially run a similar Fangio style split safety, quarters heavy defense as us, but Berry is not as good at Del Rio at running it and/or they don't have as good of a personnel fit as us.  For example, Eric Stokes is their William Jackson III.  Talented man corner who is a bad fit for a defense that runs zone 75% of the time and has a tough time passing off players in their zone coverage skill leading to a lot blow coverages.

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philibusters

philibusters

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5 minutes ago, samy316 said:

 

Barry was actually damn good his first year with the Packers, which was shocking in and of itself.  Their defense regressed some last year, so we'll see if that defense continues to slide or if it goes back to what it looked like in 2021.  If Bahktiari looks like he did before the injuries, that will really help their O-Line.  I already rate it higher than Washington's O-Line, even with the question marks.

 

Their O-Line is way better than our O-Line.  I don't see us as that close.  That said, I like our defense better and I like our receiving options more.  Their top 3 receivers are Christian Watson (2nd year player), Romeo Doubs (2nd year player), and Jayden Reed (rookie_, which is probably bottom 3 or 4 in the NFL.  Their top two receiving TE's will be rookies.   I like their receiving corps more than our 2019 receiving corps for example when we had a bunch of young guys, but I still think it will be a liability.   Their top 3 WR's all have some potential, but I would take Dotson over all three of them without hesitation.  

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samy316

samy316

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6 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Their O-Line is way better than our O-Line.  I don't see us as that close.  That said, I like our defense better and I like our receiving options more.  Their top 3 receivers are Christian Watson (2nd year player), Romeo Doubs (2nd year player), and Jayden Reed (rookie_, which is probably bottom 3 or 4 in the NFL.  Their top two receiving TE's will be rookies.   I like their receiving corps more than our 2019 receiving corps for example when we had a bunch of young guys, but I still think it will be a liability.   Their top 3 WR's all have some potential, but I would take Dotson over all three of them without hesitation.  

 

Yeah, agree with all of that.  The only other position I would give the Packers the edge to (for now) is the DB unit.  They have some really great CB's, including Jair Alexander, who might be best in the game.  Ours has potential, but that Packers DB group might be the best collective group in the NFL.

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Warhead36

Warhead36

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6 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

I'd like to see what he actually does instead of thinking Netflix editing choices are the arbiter of his skill as an OC.

Yeah I think his not being involved much with Mahomes on a Netflix show doesn't mean much. He's the Offensive Coordinator. His job is to prep and gameplan the entire offense. It makes sense that Netflix can't really get in on that kinda action.

 

Also Nagy and Mahomes go way back so it makes sense that they're super tight. If you watch some interviews on youtube, Mahomes basically admits that Nagy is the reason the Chiefs drafted him to begin with.

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Conn

Conn

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18 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

I'd like to see what he actually does instead of thinking Netflix editing choices are the arbiter of his skill as an OC.


Think we’re all in line to see just that this season. Until then all we can do is speculate. And part of that speculation is the documentary filmed in his presence for an entire year, as incomplete and imperfect a resource as it is. 

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NickyJ

NickyJ

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I rate OCs by 5 points for each appearance they make on Netflix tv series about quarterbacks. If the OC doesn't overrule the head coach's playcalls while being recorded for a TV series, that's a red flag to me. Same for if the OC trusts his QB coach to coach the QBs. That's a giant red flag. The biggest red flag is if the OC doesn't get shown trying to act as the personal trainer for his quarterbacks, calling them every few hours to see how they are, rushing out to buy Happy Meals at the local McDonalds to reward them for not screwing up the playbook.

 

If an OC isn't the star of a TV series about quarterbacks, can he really call himself an OC?

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Conn

Conn

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1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

I rate OCs by 5 points for each appearance they make on Netflix tv series about quarterbacks. If the OC doesn't overrule the head coach's playcalls while being recorded for a TV series, that's a red flag to me. Same for if the OC trusts his QB coach to coach the QBs. That's a giant red flag. The biggest red flag is if the OC doesn't get shown trying to act as the personal trainer for his quarterbacks, calling them every few hours to see how they are, rushing out to buy Happy Meals at the local McDonalds to reward them for not screwing up the playbook.

 

If an OC isn't the star of a TV series about quarterbacks, can he really call himself an OC?


 

I understand the point you’re making and the extremes to which you’re going to make it for comedy—but you realize if he stinks or doesn’t live up to any sort of expectations, and we end up disregarding EB as much as most Chiefs fans do, this is going to read like extreme copium in retrospect lol. How often have we thought we knew better than another franchise only to see that oops, they were right? 

 

I’m excited about EB as well and think there actually is a good chance he’s been overlooked for unfair reasons—my post about the Quarterbacks show was also over the top for comedic effect, but I do think it’s downright odd how frozen out of gameday stuff he seemed. By last season Nagy was back in the fold and the obvious heir apparent at OC so maybe the transition had already begun, and maybe EB’s involvement was different in prior years 

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