2023 NFL Draft Watch and Post Thread - The Hangover Special

[Koolblue13]

Anyone sign Ivan Pace yet?

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Anyone sign Ivan Pace yet?

Minnesota

[Est.1974]

25 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

But no one can accuse Rivera of going all in for himself in a make or break year, I'll say that.

Yeah that’s a real important point/observation. They’ve stayed on their track and didn’t purge future capital to bolster this season. 

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

I said this yesterday about us potentially missing out on a couple of players before we took Henry and Mayhew’s comment about missing out and not being aggressive enough via trade has me thinking that is the case.

 

First four picks were all but scripted IMO. I’m now thinking we liked Herbig or Abdullah too. Henry was maybe the last guy we had in that ‘group’. Perhaps Mayhew regrets not moving back up further. Who knows. I don’t mind the Henry pick at all.

 

And I’m not saying this just because he was one of my favourites, but Tyler Scott would have been a great get for EB at the end of the 4th. Day 2 grade. 

 

Yeah. I noticed that, too

 

Some of my favorite pass rushers came off the board shortly before the Henry pick.  I got to watch Henry today.  I watched him a little before the draft but didn't land on a hard take on him.  

 

But I did have hard takes on Herbig, Abdullah, Mcguire who came off the board just a bit ahead

 

Kiper gave them a B and stresses their all in on needs in the draft.  Feels like a right on take to me.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2023/insider/story/_/id/36187303/2023-nfl-draft-grades-all-32-teams-mel-kiper-steals-sleepers-favorite-picks-classes

They ranked 26th in takeaways last season (18), so they went all-in on needs. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Wyvern]

8 hours ago, Jumbo said:

Hang on. I just farted, but now I'm worried it was more than that.

Hmmm.  ...It'll be okay, as long as you didn't start a new thread.

[mhd24]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah. I noticed that, too

 

Some of my favorite pass rushers came off the board shortly before the Henry pick.  I got to watch Henry today.  I watched him a little before the draft but didn't land on a hard take on him.  

 

But I did have hard takes on Herbig, Abdullah, Mcguire who came off the board just a bit ahead

 

Kiper gave them a B and stresses their all in on needs in the draft.  Feels like a right on take to me.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2023/insider/story/_/id/36187303/2023-nfl-draft-grades-all-32-teams-mel-kiper-steals-sleepers-favorite-picks-classes

They ranked 26th in takeaways last season (18), so they went all-in on needs. 

I think they were going to go OL if Wright, Skoronski, or Paris Johnson fell to them.  I don't think B. Jones was ever in consideration.  They definitely wanted to trade down (according to Keim pre-draft), but no offers came in.  That left CB as the logical choice.  Time will tell if Gonzalez or Forbes was the right pick, but they had Forbes as the #2 CB.  Lombardi's only worry (and according to him it's worrisome) is the size.  He thought Forbes was a good player.  He also liked Banks too FWIW.

[FootballZombie]

They really valued Seniors this time around. I think everybody outside of Forbes was one.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd add.  Granted there is no way to know.  And Braeden Daniels was one of the wildcard type O lineman that I was intrigued with.

 

But it seems intutive that the pass rushers would come off the board before Daniels.   If they took McGuire, Herbig, or Abdullah with their 4th round pick, they likely wouldn't have both lost out on them and to boot lost a 6th rounder to trade up for likely a lesser player.  I'd bet Daniels would have been there in the 5th.

 

Granted there is no way to know.  But hey this is a football board where we can spitball opinions.  

 

To me, I like Gribble and their player evaluations.    But listening to Mayhew comes off yesterday like hey we with hindsight would have done some things differently -- while I appreciate the honesty it reinforces my perception.

 

I do think Dallas, NY, and the Eagles have smarter FOs than ours.  Though I didn't love Dallas' draft yesterday but their dude Will McClay is one of the best in the business.

 

I don't think Rivera sucks like some do.  I think he does solid B work.  But he is in a divison with the Eagles who do A work, always playing chess.  And the NY Giants are run really well now, and have an aggressiveness than Ron doesn't share.  Dallas typically drafts well. 

 

I think if he and this team were in the NFC South, we'd be fine.   But alas we are in a division with some shrewd FOs IMO.  And just being solid on that front isn't enough.

 

I was good with Rivera running this FO with Dan at the helm because heck who else can we attact with that douche in control?  Plus some GM would end up being Dan's stooge in short order.    But with Harris coming on, Ron's days are almost for sure numbered (as head of the FO)  and they should be IMO.  Not because he sucks but because we need to do better than solid. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But with Harris coming on, Ron's days are almost for sure numbered (as head of the FO) 

I've been a defender of Ron and this FO for a while now. I've remained optimistic, but the shark is jumped. We're a respectable .500 team that players don't refuse to play with, but this draft felt like the car ran out of gas.

[Est.1974]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But it seems intutive that the pass rushers would come off the board before Daniels.   If they took McGuire, Herbig, or Abdullah with their 4th round pick, they likely wouldn't have both lost out on them and to boot lost a 6th rounder to trade up for likely a lesser player.  I'd bet Daniels would have been there in the 5th.

 

Granted there is no way to know.  But hey this is a football board where we can spitball opinions.  

 

To me, I like Gribble and their player evaluations.    But listening to Mayhew comes off yesterday like hey we with hindsight would have done some things differently -- while I appreciate the honesty it reinforces my perception.

That footage made it look like Hurney pushes the Daniels pick. Then we got to try and trade up. Sure feels like Mayhew wishes he was more aggressive with that trade up scenario, more so than we eventually did.

 

Or

 

Maybe we wanted OL before we took Daniels. A raft did go before that selection too. We’ll never know if Dawand Jones was off our board, but he went just before, and Daniels is being put at OT initially.........

[DWinzit]

6 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

I think they were going to go OL if Wright, Skoronski, or Paris Johnson fell to them.  I don't think B. Jones was ever in consideration.  They definitely wanted to trade down (according to Keim pre-draft), but no offers came in.  That left CB as the logical choice.  Time will tell if Gonzalez or Forbes was the right pick, but they had Forbes as the #2 CB.  Lombardi's only worry (and according to him it's worrisome) is the size.  He thought Forbes was a good player.  He also liked Banks too FWIW.

Yes it felt OL was their first desire. I believe B Jones was also on their radar. I get Forbes was their next highest target (or he alone was ahead of some of the T's).

 

There were trades all around us but no offers for us. They telegraphed their pick which I am guessing the other teams were happy with because they all knew we were taking a player they didn't have ranked as high as us. I wonder if they telegraphed the other picks? Felt like it but who knows

 

Always drafting for needs through 7 rounds and leaving still having vacancies is not a great business practice. Same goes with reaching on those needs which it definitely appeared to be

 

[Est.1974]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I was good with Rivera running this FO with Dan at the helm because heck who else can we attact with that douche in control?  Plus some GM would end up being Dan's stooge in short order.    But with Harris coming on, Ron's days are almost for sure numbered (as head of the FO)  and they should be IMO.  Not because he sucks but because we need to do better than solid. 

Agreed. At some stage you have to be a bit more creative and diverse in your thinking. After day 1 he was talking about adding depth. Solid. But so medium.

[mhd24]

2 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Yes it felt OL was their first desire. I believe B Jones was also on their radar. I get Forbes was their next highest target (or he alone was ahead of some of the T's).

 

There were trades all around us but no offers for us. They telegraphed their pick which I am guessing the other teams were happy with because they all knew we were taking a player they didn't have ranked as high as us. I wonder if they telegraphed the other picks? Felt like it but who knows

 

Always drafting for needs through 7 rounds and leaving still having vacancies is not a great business practice. Same goes with reaching on those needs which it definitely appeared to be

 

 

Mayhew tells the truth (maybe too earnestly).  I think they were no trade offers.  The Jets tried like heck to trade down once B. Jones went 14th.  They were forced to sit and take McDonald.  We were stuck and took CB.  Have no issues with the pick of the position.  I'm not qualified to determine if Gonzalez was the better player.  Detroit passed on him at 12.  The Raiders passed on him at 7.  

 

After Gonzalez, we weren't taking LB (18), DT (19), WR (20-23).  So, we were stuck, and took the best player (that we graded) at our most pressing need after OL (whom none were worthy of taking).

[Rex Tomb]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Sleeping on it, I’ve come back with the same conclusion as yesterday:

 

We drafted good football players. 

 

Forbes: Athletic. But what isn’t getting a ton of talk is his anticipatory reads. He sees something and knows what’s happening. They aren’t guesses, either, because he doesn’t get beat on double moves all that much. He just diagnoses and reacts. That’s why he’s such a ballhawk. He’s going to eat a few chicken thousand nuggies with Sam Howell and be good to go. He will be a starting corner.

 

Martin: Aggressive, fairly sticky, good tackler. He’s another guy that finds the ball and makes plays on it. Seems to have a good football IQ with his decision making and plays “smooth”. He will start at slot corner.

 

Stromberg: Things were quiet around him but I think he was the best center in the draft. Good anchor, good athleticism and good background. He will need to get up to NFL speed but ultimately I think he’s the starting center at some point this year.

 

Daniels: I liked him on film. He moves really well in pass pro. I think he’s a pretty decent run blocker, too. He needs to work on his foot positioning when he gets into blocks sometimes. Gets his feet a little close and loses leg drive. Needs to add some weight. But he could wind up starting at RT.

 

Henry: Not very good on the edge on film. Lets himself get blocked, seems to use one move and then doesn’t have another. Sometimes abandons his rush to stand there and jump. Gets moved and swallowed by OTs. Very hesitant. But some of that could be scheme related. It looks like he is a hybrid DE/LB in Clemson’s scheme. He looks like he is peel coverage responsible for the back at times and that slows him down and makes him flat footed, which lets him get blocked. They played him at 3-tech some and on those reps he looked like he was shot out of a cannon. Great movement and explosive, using counter moves and got to the QB. So we’ll see on him. If he plays like he did at 3-tech we have ourselves a steal. If he plays like he did in Clemson’s scheme at Edge we have ourselves a cut casualty.

 

Rodriguez: our version of Pacheco. He doesn’t do anything to really wow you on tape, but that’s not the kind of back he is. He has a strong lower body and plays with a low center of gravity. He’s not afraid to lower his shoulder and get downhill. He’s a good pass protector. He isn’t going to burn anyone in a foot race, but he’s not a bad athlete, either. I think they intend to use BRob plenty this year and they needed a power back to get some carries and step in if he gets hurt. Rodriguez is exactly that.

 

Jones: Long and athletic. Can make some plays by setting the edge. Uses his athleticism to put him in good positions. Can get to the QB but his best asset is setting the edge.

 

We got a bunch of players that are good players that fill roles that we needed. So, I’m good with the players taken. I’m least high on Henry at the moment but if they use him as a pure edge and he plays like he did at 3-tech at Clemson he will be better than I originally thought. I don’t like trading up for him, but, I’ll forget about it if he plays like he did inside for Clemson. 
 

Best Player: Emmanuel Forbes

Highest Upside: KJ Henry/Forbes

Lowest Floor: KJ Henry

Biggest Improvement Over Current Starter: Quan Martin

Most Developmental: Braeden Daniels

Most Steady: Ricky Stromberg

 

My Grades: Players: B. I like most of them in one way or another. Lots of steady players that are high floor guys. Henry/Forbes have the most potential to boom, but Henry’s floor is lower than the basement, too. Hope we get boom version 

 

Draft Strategy: D+. I like their thought behind the picks. Ballhawks, improvements, complementary. I dislike drafting for need (we did, Galdi, we did). I think we passed on better players at a few picks when we took some of these players. I didn’t like trading up for Henry. By going corner in the first we didn’t maximize draft value. And there are other examples, too. Can’t give a F, though. Our roster improved. So there is something to be said for that. 

 

Reading this post is like channeling your inner Bob Ross.  Thank you 😊 

[FootballZombie]

My biggest warm-fuzzys outta this draft are:

 

1.) Emphasis on playmakers, something we lack

2.) I love that we managed to get a good C given our problems there

3.) No injury stash guys

 

 

I think my biggest regrets outta this draft are:

 

1.) No TEs

2.) 1st rounder was not an O player

3.) RB is a power type rather than a C.O.P.

 

[method man]

I am in the B- range as well. We came away with a good likelihood of at least 3 future starters with 2 of those guys probably being Day 1 starters. However, 2 out of those 3 are non premium positions (hybrid slot and center).

 

I hate what they did on Day 3. I am really annoyed that for the second year in a row, they have decided to punt on off ball LB depth in the draft. Keim gets it. He is going to have a pod next week explaining some of the thinking behind that. 

[DWinzit]

5 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

 

Reading this post is like channeling your inner Bob Ross.  Thank you 😊 

I was figuring how to comment on his post....you nailed it 

[method man]

For those of you who studied the hybrid slot position in greater detail, how much better is Quan Martin than someone like. Jakorian Bennett or JT Skinner?

[Skinsinparadise]

48 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

I think they were going to go OL if Wright, Skoronski, or Paris Johnson fell to them.  I don't think B. Jones was ever in consideration.  They definitely wanted to trade down (according to Keim pre-draft), but no offers came in.  That left CB as the logical choice.  Time will tell if Gonzalez or Forbes was the right pick, but they had Forbes as the #2 CB.  Lombardi's only worry (and according to him it's worrisome) is the size.  He thought Forbes was a good player.  He also liked Banks too FWIW.

 

My point really wasn't so much about Forbes.   It was how the middle of the draft played out.

 

But back to Forbes.   It's their own self-imposed issue that they felt boxed in that it had to be corner or tackle.  Some here take it as that's normal as if this is how it should be since that's how they did it.  Pick two spots.  And take the best for those two spots and if it doesn't quite flow that well than heck its bad luck.  This isn't directed to you.  And its my opinion, not fact.  But that approach is nauseating to me.   i like Rivera, I don't think he's stupid.  He's competent.  But I don't agree with how he works the board on draft day.

 

And like i've said. this isn't me whining about them not taking all of my favorite players or saying I do evaluations better than they do -- of course I don't, and that would be a joke.   But this FO lets on to their method of going about things.  Ron is pretty direct and honest.  And Keim revealing what he knows from his sources in the FO doubles down on it all.   And I don't love that method.

 

I think this draft helped if anything make a point that I @KDawg, @Going Commando among others make regularly on the draft thread -- drafting to need is too restrictive.  Go for greatest players as much as you can -- yes not strictly that way but we talked through the variables to death.

 

Lets say for example they did something crazy to some but not to me and some others and took a pass rusher in the first.

 

1st.  Myles Murphy (they supposedly loved him according to Keim but alas he wasn't one of their top 2 needs)

2nd.  Quan Martin (they love)

3rd.   Stromberg

4th    Daniels

5th -- instead of trading up for KJ Henry trade up for Darius Rush.

 

For me personally, I'd think that would be a smarter way to use the board.  And look i used all players we know they like except for Rush, which I don't know one way or another but he seems their type.

 

And this is me fitting just a little BPA with mostly their need approach.   If they went BPA some more maybe it would be Charlies Jones or Herbig in the 4th instead of Daniels.  i like Daniels but I didn't see him as the PBA at that spot.  But it doesn't matter what I think.  My beef with them is I strongly suspect he wasn't their BPA either because they don't seem to roll that way.

 

I get the counter argument is hey do we really want to be weak at this spot or that next year -- so take the lesser player for the need spot.  I'd only agree  if this was a SB team and that one need spot was the maker or breaker.  And I know the other counter that some use is to take the point to an extreme to ridicule it.  But you can figure various variables in these decisions so its not a strict binary BPA approach.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[samy316]

I give this draft a C.  I think Forbes and Martin will be solid players for us, but for a “win-now” season, Rivera & Co. aren’t drafting like this is a make or break season.  The fact that we didn’t draft any premier OL/OT in the first two rounds, nor did we address the TE position left a real sour taste in my mouth.  Look, regardless of how I feel about rolling with Howell this upcoming season, they needed to do something significant in the draft to help the young signal caller out, and they did next to nothing.

 

It confuses me that we brought in EB as an offensive coach, yet we did next to nothing to make sure that Sam Howell will have every chance to succeed next year, with the best possible line, and the best possible safety valve (TE) to take the pressure off.  This team will still struggle to score next year, as Howell is running for his life, from those beastly Eagles and Cowboys D-Lines.  I guess Rivera is cool with winning games 20-17.

[Daniel.redskins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My point really wasn't so much about Forbes.   It was how the middle of the draft played out.

 

But back to Forbes.   It's their own self-imposed issue that they felt boxed in that it had to be corner or tackle.  some here take it as that's normal.  Pick two spots.  And take the best for those two spots and if it doesn't quite flow that well that heck its bad luck.  This isn't directed to you.  And its my opinion, not fact.  But that approach is nauseating to me.   i like Rivera, I don't think he's stupid.  He's competent.  But I don't agree with how he works the board on draft day.

 

And like i've said. this isn't me whining about them not taking all of my favorite players or saying I do evaluations better than they do -- of course I don't, and that would be a joke.   But this FO lets on to their method of going about things.  Ron is pretty direct and honest.  And Keim revealing what he knows from his sources in the FO doubles down on it all.   And I don't love that method.

 

I think this draft helped if anything make a point that I @KDawg, @Going Commando among others make regularly on the draft thread -- drafting to need is too restrictive.  Go for greast players -- yes not strictly that way but we talked through the variables.

 

Lets say for example they did something crazy to some but not to me and some others and took a pass rusher in the first.

 

1st.  Myles Murphy (they suppsoedly loved him according to Keim but alas he wasn't one of their top 2 needs)

2nd.  Quan Martin (they love)

3rd.   Stromberg

4th    Daniels

5th -- instead of trading up for KJ Henry trade jo for Darius Rush.

 

For me personally, I'd think that would be a smarter way to use the board.  And look i used all players we know they like except for Rush, which I don't know one way or another but he seems their type.

 

And this is me fitting just a little some BPA with their need approach.   If they went BPA maybe it would be Charlies Jones or Herbig in the 4th insteasd of Daniels.  i like Daniels but I didn't see him as the PBA at that spot.  But it doesn't matter what I think.  My beef with them is I strongly suspect he wasn't their BPA either because they don't seem to roll that way.

 

I get the counter argument is hey do we really want to be weak at this spot or that next year -- so take the lesser player for the need spot.  I'd only agree  if this was a SB team and that one need spot was the maker or breaker.  And I know the other counter that some use is to take the point to an extreme to ridicule it.  But you can figure various variables in these decisions so its not a strict binary BPA approach.

 

 

I would have given your draft an A.  Ours was a big fat D.  That first round pick could have changed everything.  There were absolute beasts on the board at 16 and we took a 165 lb guy.  I just don't get it.  

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, samy316 said:

I give this draft a C.  I think Forbes and Martin will be solid players for us, but for a “win-now” season, Rivera & Co. aren’t drafting like this is a make or break season.  The fact that we didn’t draft any premier OL/OT in the first two rounds, nor did we address the TE position left a real sour taste in my mouth.  Look, regardless of how I feel about rolling with Howell this upcoming season, they needed to do something significant in the draft to help the young signal caller out, and they did next to nothing.

 

It confuses me that we brought in EB as an offensive coach, yet we did next to nothing to make sure that Sam Howell will have every chance to succeed next year, with the best possible line, and the best possible safety valve (TE) to take the pressure off.  This team will still struggle to score next year, as Howell is running for his life, from those beastly Eagles and Cowboys D-Lines.  I guess Rivera is cool with winning games 20-17.

Okay… but…

 

What premier OL did you want them to take at 16? 
 

Or 47?

 

There weren’t any. 
 

You’re advocating a “draft for need” approach above, but that’s exactly what we did. We just didn’t get the high end OL because of where we picked.

 

Also, people have been dogging Rivera saying he was going to do everything he could to save his job and that would hurt the organization because of his short sighted moves. Now we’re disappointed that he didn’t make short sighted moves and allowed us the opportunity to have a full array of picks in the new regime’s first draft? Which is it?

Edited April 30, 2023 by KDawg

[Chris 44]

19 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I've been a defender of Ron and this FO for a while now. I've remained optimistic, but the shark is jumped. We're a respectable .500 team that players don't refuse to play with, but this draft felt like the car ran out of gas.

I love Ron Rivera the man. I think he is a very good leader of men and was undoubtedly the right man for the job under the circumstances this organization was put in by Dan, especially during the last 3 years. Under new management it's a different game all together. He cannot be in the same role he is in now going forward. I would continue with him as HC for the coming year, would be rediculous to get rid of him now. Front office duties have to end. Concentrate on being the HC. Harris has to make changes to the front office day one. Give Ron the benefit of the doubt this year as HC. See what he can do without all the other burdens. Year one is about Harris determining this organizations direction, by next summer we should have structure, roles and responsibilities laid out.

[Koolblue13]

18 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

That footage made it look like Hurney pushes the Daniels pick. Then we got to try and trade up. Sure feels like Mayhew wishes he was more aggressive with that trade up scenario, more so than we eventually did.

 

Or

 

Maybe we wanted OL before we took Daniels. A raft did go before that selection too. We’ll never know if Dawand Jones was off our board, but he went just before, and Daniels is being put at OT initially.........

It seemed like they weren't expecting the 4rth to start a run on OL, so instead of being patient, they joined in and grabbed the OT/OG instead of the better player, which I have to assume was a pass rusher, because after our Oline pick the last few OLB/DEs started going and we then traded up to grab one of the last ones. 

 

In the 4rth we should have signed Herbig, 5th (Daniels probably) Mafi or Duncan, then we would have still had 215 to pick Kuntz, Willis or another of the TEs from a potentially historic TE draft or take Zack Evans or Dee Winters if powerback and LBer were the call. 

 

That video they released just felt like some old dudes sitting around talking about how crazy the kids are these days.

[samy316]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Okay… but…

 

What premier OL did you want them to take at 16? 
 

Or 47?

 

There weren’t any. 
 

You’re advocating a “draft for need” approach above, but that’s exactly what we did. We just didn’t get the high end OL because of where we picked.

 

Also, people have been dogging Rivera saying he was going to do everything he could to save his job and that would hurt the organization because of his short sided moves. Now we’re disappointed that he didn’t make short sighted moves and allowed us the opportunity to have a full array of picks in the new regime’s first draft? Which is it?

One thing I forgot to address is how lackadaisical the team was as far as trading goes.  We could’ve moved up like the Steelers did for Broderick Jones, but we stood Pat.  We also could’ve moved up to grab Darnell Washington, but we stood Pat there too.  With one exception in the 5th Round, we did nothing, while other teams were utilizing moving up or back in the draft.  Their lack of aggression was in plain sight for all to see.

 

Maybe they were being careful, because of the new regime that’s incoming, but that doesn’t make much sense either.  The new owner isn’t there yet.  Until he is, you can make moves as a FO, if you think those moves will help the future of the team.  Tgis is one of those instances where aggression would be understood and forgiven.

Edited April 30, 2023 by samy316