Next Day Thread: Giants I: Keep it Medium

[tmandoug1]

9 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

TH got there in the back of an Uber.

Lets not pretend otherwise.

He drinks Busch light....I think maybe his sister drove him. Think man think.

[Darc Requiem]

10 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Hung his pass catchers out to dry again.

Increased his turnover worthy plays

Continued to miss wide open players

 

His game against the giants was a terrible game overall. Fits right in w/ the rest of his play as well.

 

He is not giving us average or mediocre QB play. He is giving us dumpster fire levels of QB play.

 

I have all the confidence in the world that Wentz pr Howell can step in and be at least a terrible QB, and that would be an upgrade over what we are currently getting.

 

It doesn't matter that you have all the confidence in the world that Wentz can step in. Wentz is a tree that holds on to the ball too long. He's a shell of his former self. The team, the guys that actually lineup and play, don't have confidence in Wentz. Heinicke is not the long term answer, he's the answer that gives us the best chance to win this season. The team actually plays for him. If you've watched how Wentz plays, watched how our offensive line plays, and think Wentz can step in you. You haven't been watching 2022 Carson Wentz. It's not 2017 anymore. The guy can't get it done. He would have been sacked by the Giants at least a half dozen times on Sunday.  

Edited December 6, 2022 by Darc Requiem

[CommDownMan]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

On another note: The hand wringing about officiating is exhausting. I get it in the heat of the moment. As a coach I have had my fair share of asking referees what they are looking at on the field. So I get it. Then again I have literally seen rules change from game to game at the HS level (OL can/can't lace on XP).

 

But the officiating has helped and hurt us. Refs are going to miss calls and make bad calls. They missed a few yesterday for both sides. They made bad calls a few times yesterday for both sides. At the end of the day, our team has to execute and not worry about officiating. We as fans can hand wring, and I'm not even saying we/fans are wrong about the bad calls in all circumstances, but at the end of the day if your team plays well enough the calls just simply don't matter.

 

Sometimes I catch myself typing something about a call and I realize I look like a schmuck when I do it. So I wait for a replay, watch it again and then realize why the ref made the call they made for the most part. If I sit on it a minute and think about it and I still have questions I say it. But very rarely does that occur. I don't know. It's a forum, people can post how they want. But I think taking a step back is important for the health of the forum sometimes. Having said that, I think the majority of the posting in this thread about the calls has been intelligently done. A few off-hand bits of silliness, but for the most part it's been conversation which has been solid. 

 

For me there was a graphic around the third quarter with Commanders 4/30 and Giants 1/10 (something like that).  Then in the 4th quarter there was something like 3-4 in just a few plays.  Maybe the players got tired and started doing dumb things, but after a relatively penalty free game it seemed they changed how/what they were calling and it was skewed against the Commanders.  When some of those are bad calls, I think it's just more frustrating (or the same thing is non-called the other way).  Does it mean the world is against us?  No.  Are we on the receiving end of good penalties?  Absolutely.  I do think it's natural to be angry in those cases, as natural as hating the Giants.

 

 

[CommanderCarson]

2 hours ago, Darc Requiem said:

It doesn't matter that you have all the confidence in the world that Wentz can step in. Wentz is a tree that holds on to the ball too long. He's a shell of his former self. The team, the guys that actually lineup and play, don't have confidence in Wentz. Heinicke is not the long term answer, he's the answer that gives us the best chance to win this season. The team actually plays for him. If you've watched how Wentz plays, watched how our offensive line plays, and think Wentz can step in you. You haven't been watching 2022 Carson Wentz. It's not 2017 anymore. The guy can't get it done. He would have been sacked by the Giants at least a half dozen times on Sunday.  

Just about sums it up for me.

 

I was all in on Wentz to start the year. But that man is broken. We could literally not score any first half points with him at QB. It’s not pretty with heineke, and definitely need a better long term solution, but he gives us a better chance with this team to win this season. 
 

There were several plays heineke was able to maneuver in the pocket and make things happen where Wentz would have taken a back breaking sack. I don’t think people remember how bad the offense was with Wentz under center, outside of Jax and Detroit second half we just were flat out bad. And the OL is just as leaky right now as it was then, at least after losing Larsen and Cosmi.

 

[veteranskinsfan]

I give the coaching staff credit for pulling Christian Holmes (34) in the second half and putting in Danny Johnson to replace him.

Holmes was getting beat badly in the first half.  We need St. Juste back for the Giants game.

[Going Commando]

10 hours ago, BleedBNG said:

 

 

 

8 plays, four of which he got pressured and either had to throw early or move around to avoid the rush and throw late, and one of the clean pockets was a 3 and 13 from his end zone into a max coverage, aka a play that had zero chance no matter who is throwing that ball unless the defense breaks down.

 

If this is the kind of stuff that is fueling the harsh criticism of Heinicke?  If so, it clearly lacks perspective.  Did anyone watch SNF later that day?  Anyone see how Matt Ryan handled the pressure he saw?  The Colts have a better roster than we do.

[veteranskinsfan]

I think he has been told to limit his running by the coaches.  If he gets injured then we are in worse shape for the end of the season.

It makes no sense last year he would scramble and run.  This year he is staying more in the pocket.  He is being asked to be the

facilitator.  Give the ball to the running backs and let them gain yardage.  Get the ball out on pass routes to the receivers and let

them do their thing gaining yards after the catch.  His role is game manager.  Move the chains and help the offense get first downs.

[mistertim]

Just now, veteranskinsfan said:

I think he has been told to limit his running by the coaches.  If he gets injured then we are in worse shape for the end of the season.

It makes no sense last year he would scramble and run.  This year he is staying more in the pocket.  He is being asked to be the

facilitator.  Give the ball to the running backs and let them gain yardage.  Get the ball out on pass routes to the receivers and let

them do their thing gaining yards after the catch.  His role is game manager.  Move the chains and help the offense get first downs.

 

If that's true then the coaches have changed their tune since last season. They publicly said last year that they wanted him to use his legs more.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

I think he has been told to limit his running by the coaches.  If he gets injured then we are in worse shape for the end of the season.

It makes no sense last year he would scramble and run.  This year he is staying more in the pocket.  He is being asked to be the

facilitator.  Give the ball to the running backs and let them gain yardage.  Get the ball out on pass routes to the receivers and let

them do their thing gaining yards after the catch.  His role is game manager.  Move the chains and help the offense get first downs.

There is zero, and never has been, anything to suggest his lack of running has anything to do with the coaches.  He scrambled last year early in the season and that abruptly came to a stop. The coaches publicly discussed they’d like to see him run more after he stopped.  Just this past week, he himself admitted he’s left yards on the field by not running and should look to do it more often, he didn’t on Sunday.

 

For whatever reasons, he’s just stopped looking to take off running and would rather opt to pass.  I think we all wish he’d stop doing that, including the coaches.

 

 

[zCommander]

16 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

There is zero, and never has been, anything to suggest his lack of running has anything to do with the coaches. 

 

 

Designed run? If so, then Turner could call some and make him run. But he has run on his own this year but not as much.

In the playoff game Taylor ran more because there were going to be no more games if they lose. The stakes were higher. I think people forget that sometimes.

Edited December 6, 2022 by zCommander

[samy316]

13 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Hung his pass catchers out to dry again.

Increased his turnover worthy plays

Continued to miss wide open players

 

His game against the giants was a terrible game overall. Fits right in w/ the rest of his play as well.

 

He is not giving us average or mediocre QB play. He is giving us dumpster fire levels of QB play.

 

I have all the confidence in the world that Wentz pr Howell can step in and be at least a terrible QB, and that would be an upgrade over what we are currently getting.

 

 

LOL, this is patently false.  Wentz would've lost us this game yesterday by getting sacked 8-9 times.  Heinicke was lucky to be mobile enough to only have been sacked 4 times.  Wentz would've been sacked on that first TD pass to McLaurin, and he would've gagged if he needed to get us a TD on a 90 YD drive with 2 minutes left.  Wentz cannot do the basic things that TH can do to win you games, so that's why he's benched.  This is NOT an endorsement of Heinicke though.  I realize he's limited in what he can do as far as arm strength and accuracy goes, but he does the little things that Wentz hasn't learned to do in 6 years as a QB.  We need a new QB in the offseason.  Until then, TH is our best option.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

34 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

In the playoff game Taylor ran more because there were going to be no more games if they lose. The stakes were higher. I think people forget that sometimes.

I’m pretty sure he ran more in the playoff game, because there would be no more NFL games for him personally, if he didn’t make something happen.  To his credit, he did exactly that and carved out an NFL contract for his efforts.

Then he got the opportunity to start when Fitz went down and he was running around quite often then too.  At some point last season, it would appear he made either a conscious business decision to preserve his health or decided he wanted to focus more on being a passer, or likely a combo of both of those things.

 

The stakes are always high for him, considering his deal runs out after the season.  

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

This whole ‘Wentz would’ve’ game that gets played every week is just bad posting.  But what should I expect from a forum where folks still “Cousins would’ve threw a pick” in the 2022 gameday threads? 😭

 

You cant just insert guys into plays as if everything transpires exactly the same.  As if every playcall and action by every player is exactly the same.

 

And again, I believe Ron has no choice but to cross his fingers and continue to roll with TH.  I could care less if we ever see Wentz play another down here.  Just calling a spade a spade.

Edited December 6, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[NeverSurrender]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This whole ‘Wentz would’ve’ game that gets played every week is just bad posting.  But what should I expect from a forum where folks still “Cousins would’ve threw a pick” in the 2022 gameday threads? 😭

 

You cant just insert guys into plays as if everything transpires exactly the same.  As if every playcall and action by every player is exactly the same.

 

And again, I believe Ron has no choice but to cross his fingers and continue to roll with TH.  I could care less if we ever see Wentz play another down here.  Just calling a spade a spade.

Then call the spade.  Tell us how many sacks you think Wentz takes in the Giants game?  If you look closely you might see the forrest through all those trees.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, NeverSurrender said:

Then call the spade.  Tell us how many sacks you think Wentz takes in the Giants game?  If you look closely you might see the forrest through all those trees.

The entire makeup of the game would be different with Wentz, which is the point of my post.  It’s pointless to suggest that X player would have done this or that, but since you are a big “Wentz would’ve collapsed while tying his shoes” every other post guy I can see why you couldn’t just scroll past my post.

[El Mexican]

16 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He’s a competitor and the team likes him.  Great.  That doesn’t make him Joe Montana.  

 

I agree. TH is far from elite.

 

But the sad reality is he's our best card this season, due in large part to our erratic O-Line.

He's already shown he can win given the correct mix of pass-run ratio and solid defensive play.

 

Let the man play.

[Stone Cold]

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m pretty sure he ran more in the playoff game, because there would be no more NFL games for him personally, if he didn’t make something happen.  To his credit, he did exactly that and carved out an NFL contract for his efforts.

Then he got the opportunity to start when Fitz went down and he was running around quite often then too.  At some point last season, it would appear he made either a conscious business decision to preserve his health or decided he wanted to focus more on being a passer, or likely a combo of both of those things.

 

The stakes are always high for him, considering his deal runs out after the season.  

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here.  4 can’t afford to go out due to injury.  He’s literally playing each game like it could be his last…to include not risking getting banged up and giving the coaches any reason to pull him

[NeverSurrender]

49 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The entire makeup of the game would be different with Wentz, which is the point of my post.  It’s pointless to suggest that X player would have done this or that, but since you are a big “Wentz would’ve collapsed while tying his shoes” every other post guy I can see why you couldn’t just scroll past my post.

The pressure from their Dline would not have been different my guy. I liked the Wentz pick up at the time but man you gotta admit the guy was awful and could not avoid pressure. 

[50yrSKINSfan]

On 12/5/2022 at 5:32 PM, XxSpearheadxX said:

I just wanted to quote this for emphasis. Heineke should have thrown a bettwr ball, that was probably why they pulled the flag sigh

I feel like I should be angry but I'm not angry the way Id be if we lost. We just HAVE to crush them at home and I'll feel 

It does not matter if the QB throws a good ball or a bad ball. On pass interference a defender cannot stop a receiver from attempting to catch a pass when the ball is in the air. The defender has to play the ball. In the case of the “blown” PI call, the defender put his arm around the receivers neck slowing the receivers ability to come back for a underthrown ball. The defender made “no attempt” to play the ball. Now either that is clear pass interference or at least def holding as you cannot hold a receiver when the ball is in the air which it clearly was. To pick up a flag on a clear penalty out in the open where the ref that threw the flag was facing the play just puts a thought in your head that the game is fixed. Now if the ref did not see the play then fine, he would not throw the flag but throwing the flag proves he saw the play. Picking it up tells me he does not know what he is doing and he should not be a ref. We should be angry as that was a 4 point loss. We kicked a FG instead of getting the ball on the 1 yard line. 
 

[markmills67]

I've just had a thought, play Heinike in the 1st quarter where he generally starts we'll. Replace him with Wentz for quarters 2 and 3 because he loses his nerve late in Games, then bring back Heinike in the 4th quarter for him to win the game.

 

There you go sorted 

 

HTTR 

[50yrSKINSfan]

1 hour ago, NeverSurrender said:

The pressure from their Dline would not have been different my guy. I liked the Wentz pick up at the time but man you gotta admit the guy was awful and could not avoid pressure. 

Same here on both points. Our Dline has backups playing and our center went out with a leg injury compounding the bad situation. I saw some plays where the nat tackle just bull rushed through our line like it was not there and he was in TH face at the drop of a hat. TH threw the ball with the guy grabbing for him and I am almost sure he had no view of the receiver yet some on here say he stinks because his QB rating was low and he hangs his receivers out to dry. If anyone was hung out to dry it was TH. The guy was under big time pressure the whole game and he has balls to hang in there and I think his performance deserves applause, esp with that 4th down conversion, and not criticism. Eli and Brady would be divIng for the dirt under a lot less pressure. Your team is playing meaningful games in December with a backup QB and a cive of a Oline, be grateful.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, NeverSurrender said:

The pressure from their Dline would not have been different my guy. I liked the Wentz pick up at the time but man you gotta admit the guy was awful and could not avoid pressure. 

I am not your guy.

 

Wentz would have done X, Y and Z way better than Heinicke though.

 

See how this works.  Everyone can just say stuff about things that never actually occurred.

Edited December 7, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[CommanderCarson]

Wait let me get this straight. So it’s been continually proposed that Wentz would open up the offense a bit more, give us a more explosive offense, and he could operate the same exact same gameplan and hand the ball off a bunch of times and be more successful doing it, since again, Wentz would be able to open up the offense more AND we’d have an elite running game. 
 

But as soon as someone makes the point that Wentz would have ultimately likely taken more sacks, all of a sudden it’s pointless how X player would do in Y situation? 
 

No one is saying that Wentz can’t take a handoff and will trip all over himself, what we are saying is that the line was really really bad on Sunday and heineke is giving this particular team which CAN run the ball well (even if not explosively cause said O line) and play great defense, a chance to win each and every week. Which he’s done. And is an absolute fact at this point in time. 
 

If I’m being honest, throwing straight up false claims to belittle the other side is EXACTLY what is being chastised on this forum and QB thread in particular. Not one person, especially every other post, is dropping in to say LOLZ WENTZ CANT TIE HIS SHOES AND SUCKS GO HEINEKE.” I thought we were trying to avoid that type of posting, so just shining a light where it really needs to be shined. My 2 cents. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by CommanderCarson

[zCommander]

8 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m pretty sure he ran more in the playoff game, because there would be no more NFL games for him personally, if he didn’t make something happen.  To his credit, he did exactly that and carved out an NFL contract for his efforts.

 

 

I said the same thing except I didn't say personally. lol But, it was implied. 😎

[tmandoug1]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I am not your guy.

 

Wentz would have done X, Y and Z way better than Heinicke though.

 

See how this works.  Everyone can just say stuff about things that never actually occurred.

At no time during his career here did he ever actually do X, Y, maybe a little of Z better than Heinicke. I get your point though....tough to analyze hypotheticals in a given situation. But I will say that Wentz didn't play well period.