Next Day Thread: Giants I: Keep it Medium

[KDawg]

Every post tends to start with the quarterback. Heinicke was on the field. Made a few nice evasions and completions off of them where Dotson and McLaurin made fantastic plays. He also looked limited. That's all about him. 

 

Brian Robinson added another 96 on the ground today. And a lot of those were tough yards. Gibson didn't have the same kind of overall production but he ran hard on his carries and it seems like the two of them are competing in a game of who can run harder on a % of carries basis. This is the most fun unit to watch. Not that McLaurin/Dotson/Samuel isn't fun, too. But I love smashmouth football and these guys are running like beasts.

 

Our offensive line went from awful to meh in the last few weeks with Larsen and Cosmi back. Then they both went down again in this one and its back to awful. Need to get healthy quick up front of this playoff push is in jeopardy. Big time. 

 

Dotson and McLaurin had two of the best individual efforts from receivers on this team that I have seen in a very, very long time on their two touchdowns. Samuel looked explosive as a running back (our long rush of the day at 21 was his) and he added six receptions in key moments. 

 

Our tight ends like to hold. Hopefully that was a yesterday issue and it takes care of itself. 

 

Defensively: Our defensive tackles are the best duo in the league. You can't convince me otherwise. And I am not generally someone that touts our players in that way, but it's true. Allen had one of the cleanest bull rush to outside hip of the back plays I've ever seen to stuff Barkley for -5 in a key moment. He also helped contribute to the forced fumble (I know he's credited for it, but Jamin's body placement was a big factor as well). Payne continues to look like a better pass rusher than our DEs.

 

Toohill is a pretty good defensive end as a whole. He lacks some pass rush explosiveness. But he is okay there and he is good against the run. What he does best though is play disciplined responsibility football. Last week he helped secure the Montez Sweat sack where Montez got to QB depth and came back inside. The QB tried to escape left, but Toohill kept contain and he had no where to go but down. This week he came off the edge and played perfect contain on a big play against the Giants. 

 

I know people will take this the wrong way, but I'm going to say it anyways: I don't think Montez Sweat should be a Commander next year. He is explosive, athletic and capable of a big play at any moment. He has improved against the run and in responsibility football. So why am I saying he shouldn't be a Commander? Because he isn't a good enough overall defensive end to justify the % of the cap he's going to demand in a signing. Professional football is about asset management. He is a good asset. He has a lot of playmaker tools. He is a value to many teams. But on this team, with so many first rounders and now it seems adequate depth we need to move assets who aren't paramount to success in order to add fresh assets to the team. I don't think we can afford to pay Sweat cap % wise, and that means we have to deal him to get something of value in return for an explosive player instead of letting him leave for nothing.

 

Jamin Davis continues to grow as a linebacker. He is excellent sideline to sideline. We still need a guy to pair with him if we want our run defense to take the next forward step in the evolution. 

 

Kam Curl made one of the best defensive plays of the day. It won't be talked about, but our players (and this is an issue in all levels of football, youth, MS, HS, D3, D2, D1, NFL, Semi Pro, you name it) tend to overpursue when runs go to the sideline. Guys abandon discipline and go for the tackle in the earlier moment, and often times that leads to an opening for the runner to hit and gain extra yards. Curl made a play where the Giant runner was running to the perimeter. Barkley was working to the perimeter but Curl was the force defender. Force defenders have one job: Force the play back inside. The temptation though, is when the back is that close to you you sell out to make the tackle. It's not necessarily for selfish reasons, it's guys thinking that a tackle there is best for the team rather than allowing another yard. But the problem is that when you do that it winds up being a half measure tackle due to positioning and leads to the back breaking it and getting a ton of yards. Kam Curl knew he was going up against Barkley. He didn't tempt fate. He closed the distance between he and Barkley but stayed tight to the outside hip of Barkley while cutting off Barkley's lane to get further outside. That resulted in Barkley needing to cut back in. The rest of the defense rallied there to make the tackle a yard or two further up field. Had Curl went for the tackle, Barkley likely gains another 10-15 yards easily on that play. 

 

St-Juste being out continues to hurt us a bit. But I know Holmes let up that big Slayton catch but being honest, a seventh round rookie corner being thrust into that situation did a fairly nice job there. Was tight in coverage, in phase just didn't get the hands where they needed to be and Slayton made a play. Hard to get too upset with Holmes here. He is looking like a solid prospect. 

 

I'm still not happy about the decision to pass on first down when the Giants punted in OT inside our own ten. A first down there essentially takes the clock down. Instead we pass with no one blocking Thibodeaux off the edge. Heinicke did a good job to hold onto that ball because that had sack, fumble, touchdown written all over it. Still, the result was a big loss putting us behind the chains and essentially making attaining a first down near impossible in that situation without throwing, and that continues to stop the clock. So instead of us milking the clock in that scenario we wound up giving the Giants the chance to win the game on a walk off field goal. I think Turner has done an overall decent job, but Rivera and Turner need to take a look at that this week and discuss the situation. We likely aren't winning the game, though there's a chance a run could break and put us in a situation where a field goal attempt can be had to win. But we had the tie assured. It was the best realistically attainable outcome. But that pass almost gave us a loss that shouldn't have even been an option on the table. 

 

Terry McLaurin watch: Heading into today he was 12th all time in Washington Football Redskin Commander Team History with 3,930 yards. Today he added 105 yards bringing him to 4,035.  #11 is Michael Westbrook with 4,280. On this season McLaurin has 62 receptions for 945 yards.

 

Sweat/Allen/Payne career sack placing: For career sacks, all three guys are in the top 20 in Washington history. Jon Allen leads the way at #9 with 33.5. He needs 1 to pass Andre Carter and 2.5 to pass the great Dave Butz for #7 all-time. Sweat is second. He passed Darryl Grant for #11 all time. He is 1.5 away from passing Bruce Smith for #10 in franchise history. Da'Ron Payne is tied for 16th with Marco Coleman and Dan "Big Daddy" Wilkinson at 23. He needs 2 to move to #13.

 

 

Studs and Duds:

*** - Brian Robinson

*** - Jahan Dotson

*** - Terry McLaurin

*** - Daron Payne

*** - Jon Allen

** - Kam Curl

** - Curtis Samuel

* - Jamin Davis

 - Scott Turner/Ron Rivera 

 - Jon Bostic

 

 

Season to date:

* x 19 - Daron Payne

* x 16 - Terry McLaurin

* x 15 - Jon Allen

* x 9 - Curtis Samuel

* x 8 - Brian Robinson

* x 8 - Jahan Dotson

* x 7 - Darrick Forrest

* x 7 - Montez Sweat

* x 7 - Antonio Gibson

* x 7 - Jamin Davis

* x 6 - Benjamin St-Juste

* x 5 - Kendall Fuller

* x 3- Dyami Brown

* x 3 - Back Judge in Vikings Game

* x 3 - Jack Del Rio

* x 2 - Joey Slye

* x 2 - Kam Curl

* x 1 - Scott Turner

* x 1 - Rachad Wildgoose

* x 1 - James Smith-Williams

* x 1 - Jonathan Williams

* x 1 - John Bates

 x 1 - Wes Schweitzer

 x 1 - Jon Bostic

 x 1 - Scott Turner

 x 3 - Cam Sims

 x 4 - John Ridgeway

 x 4 -Rivera's Clock Management

 x 5 - Charles Leno

 x 5 - Trai Turner

 x 6 - Nick Martin

 x 6 - WJ3

 x 7 - Sam Cosmi

 x 8 - Andrew Norwell

Edited December 5, 2022 by KDawg

[NoVaSkins21]

The play calling after the Giants fumble on the goal line was atrocious.  Consecutive passes on 2nd and 3rd down made no sense when they could've run it down the Giants throats.  

[Koolblue13]

21 teams in history of the sack, have had 3 players with 10 + sacks. Only 21 times and I don't think it was ever done by 3 DL.

 

Payne 8.5

Allen 7.5

Sweat 7

 

Hard to see people getting on the defense for anything yesterday.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

Rivera was a coward in overtime. The team deserved to lose.

[method man]

12 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Rivera was a coward in overtime. The team deserved to lose.

This is a compromised team with Nick Martin at center. I have no clue why he is on the roster. A big miss was not finding a way to get more depth at center with your top 2 guys coming off season ending injuries

[Ball Security]

A couple of corrections: Terry McLaurin has 62 catches for 935 yards.  (I think your numbers didn’t have the second half numbers because he had four catches in both halves.)

Christian Holmes was a 7th not a 5th.

[DWinzit]

Curl - 9 tackles and 3 assists

Davis - 7 tackles and 3 assists

Allen - 7 tackles, 1 Asst and 1 sack

Along with Paynes dominance on the line and 2 sacks

Big time studs yesterday. 

 

I said this in the game thread, Larsen has been an unsung hero through the teams run. I did not hear injury updates but I sure hope he is able to return this season.

I nailed the duds!

[Koolblue13]

Just now, DWinzit said:

Curl - 9 tackles and 3 assists

Davis - 7 tackles and 3 assists

Allen - 7 tackles, 1 Asst and 1 sack

Along with Paynes dominance on the line and 2 sacks

Big time studs yesterday. 

 

I said this in the game thread, Larsen has been an unsung hero through the teams run. I did not hear injury updates but I sure hope he is able to return this season.

I nailed the duds!

Looked like his foot almost came off. He's probably done for the year.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

A couple of corrections: Terry McLaurin has 62 catches for 935 yards.  (I think your numbers didn’t have the second half numbers because he had four catches in both halves.)

Christian Holmes was a 7th not a 5th.

 

Nope. I just can't add. 

[NoVaSkins21]

Game plan in OT was not to lose instead of playing to win.  Totally went away from BRob.  I understand the Giants pass rush was a problem, but way too conservative

[DJHJR86]

 

 

I'm still baffled as to why this penalty was reversed.  

[NoVaSkins21]

Just now, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

I'm still baffled as to why this penalty was reversed.  

Yeah, that was a BS no call and reversal.  Totally a pro-NYG officiating crew yesterday

[method man]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

I'm still baffled as to why this penalty was reversed.  

They probably deemed it to be an uncatchable ball, which would be unfair because Terry could have come back to it wo the interference 

[Cooleyfan1993]

Defense couldn’t find a way to stop Daniel jones from running all over them. They HAVE to come up with a better plan during this bye week. Rough him up a little, make him think twice about running 

[Ball Security]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Nope. I just can't add. 

NBCSports Washington showed a graphic on the postgame that said that Terry is one of five, maybe six guys to have 4000k yards in his first four seasons with 900 in each.  The others that I can recall from seeing it yesterday were Michael Thomas, Mike Evans, Joey Galloway, AJ Green, and Randy Moss.  Pretty good company.

 

EDIT: I stand corrected.  Same group of players, but the tidbit was 4 or more consecutive seasons of 50 catches and 900 yards.  Thanks to @zCommander for putting it up in the Terry thread.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ball Security

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Defense couldn’t find a way to stop Daniel jones from running all over them. They HAVE to come up with a better plan during this bye week. Rough him up a little, make him think twice about running 

I don't think the plan itself was at fault from watching. It looks like it was the execution and assignment discipline.

 

That aligns with Del Rio going out of his way to make those comments about Young playing his part. It seems like this is a battle Del Rio continues to fight. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

55 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Rivera was a coward in overtime. The team deserved to lose.

So was Daboll.  It’s like his 4th and 3 punt was basically daring TH to attempt another long drive and Ron was like - no, no, no we are playing for the tie here also.  😂

16 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

I'm still baffled as to why this penalty was reversed.  

A better throw and they don’t have the nerve to pick that up.  I’m not saying it’s right, but historically it’s what happens.

[Warhead36]

I don't think Heinicke was as bad as people are making him out to be yesterday. I'm not saying he was great, he definitely missed some throws, but its hard to really evaluate once Cosmi and Larsen went down and the OL couldn't pass protect with any sort of consistency anymore. He kept drives alive only to have other guys commit penalties to derail them so that's not on him, and of course he led the game tying TD drive. You can give most of the credit to Dotson for the actual TD but someone had to get him the ball, but the 4th down conversion where he's on the run and delivers a great ball to Samuel. Whatever it is about Heinicke, the guy has magic in end of game situations. But man we do have some real talent at the skill positions. McLaurin is legitimately elite. Dotson is very good too and Samuel is a player. Robinson/Gibson is a heck of a RB duo. If we can just shore up the OL and get a real QB, the possibilities are endless....

 

The defense played three great quarters yesterday. Unfortunately they were awful in the 2nd quarter. But they kept us in it in the 2nd half with the only points given up being off the very short field due to the fumble. They forced back to back 3 and outs after that, then forced another after we tied it to give us a chance to win in regulation, and then after a first down on the first play forced another stop the first possession of OT. And after the offense punted from their own 10 yard line, they managed to hold them to a super long FG attempt. As others have said, I think losing St. Juste is hurting more than we think. He was legitimately playing very good football and his ability to play tight press man one on one on the outside was allowing us to flood the rest of the field with other guys. Now we have to have guys help out the likes of Christian Holmes. Juste is also an above average run stopper on the edges so no surprise we're getting gashed there more now with him out. Hopefully after the bye with three weeks to rest he'll be back. A healthy Young and Juste will be just what the defense needs to put the clamps down on our edge run defense which has been an achilles heel the last two weeks.

 

All in all a tie is a pretty fair result. Both teams had prime opportunities to win, but both teams also made blunders that suggested they deserved to lose. I'm not really all that impressed by the Giants other than Barkley and Jones mobility. I think if we were healthier, mainly St. Juste and the OL injuries midgame, we win this game probably by double digits. And that isn't even factoring in some of the phantom penalties/non penalties that ALWAYS happen when we play the Giants in New York(Santana Moss even alluded to this in the post game).

 

Its essentially winner take all in two weeks at home against the Giants. After a 1-4 start, I don't think we can ask for anything more.

[bearrock]

I still see Turner as mediocre to subpar OC.  Lot of people pointed this out, but no run or draw near mid field towards end of the game with 2 timeouts really seemed like a missed opportunity to keep the Giants off balance.  

[Spaceman Spiff]

Curtis Samuel getting so close to the FG range line in OT and then failing to gain any more yards after that was difficult to watch. 

[Zim489]

51 minutes ago, method man said:

This is a compromised team with Nick Martin at center. I have no clue why he is on the roster. A big miss was not finding a way to get more depth at center with your top 2 guys coming off season ending injuries

I give Ron a ton of crap but C is one of the hardest positions to not only find but also implement once here. To go through 3 options is rough and really has been about the only bad luck on the season this year. If they went through 3 optioned at literally any other position but QB it wouldn’t be as noticeable 

[Warhead36]

25 minutes ago, NoVaSkins21 said:

Game plan in OT was not to lose instead of playing to win.  Totally went away from BRob.  I understand the Giants pass rush was a problem, but way too conservative

I don't think thats a fair assessment. On the offensive drive where we got closest to scoring, we had 2nd down and 7-8 ish at around the Giant 43 yard line. We ran Robinson...and lost yards. Than IIRC we ran Samuel...and lost yards again. I don't disagree with the playcalling either. The OL was completely kaput by that point. Better to try to run for about 5-6 yards over two plays and try to kick a long FG to win it right there. It was clear we couldn't hold up up front anymore. 

 

On the second drive, the one where we started at our own 10, there is no way you can say we were too conservative when we called a pass play on first down and Thibodeaux ran in UNBLOCKED to crush Heinicke. We're lucky the game didn't end right there with a Safety or Fumble TD. After that the smart thing to do is play for the tie. We should have ran the ball on 1st down though and just played for the tie for the start. If we rip a big run then maybe call a TO and push for a FG but if not, just kill clock and play for the tie. 

[Zim489]

24 minutes ago, NoVaSkins21 said:

Yeah, that was a BS no call and reversal.  Totally a pro-NYG officiating crew yesterday

On the spike In overtime before the FG attempt Toohill was literally lined up on the giants side of the ball and they didn’t call it. It would have made it a 53 harder and Gano makes that FG. 
 

The reffing overall wasn’t good it let’s not paint it like it was only one way 

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't think Heinicke was as bad as people are making him out to be yesterday.

BuT hE tHrEw pASsEs tHaT cOuLd hAvE bEeN pIcKeD!!!!!1111

[Ball Security]

8 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

On the spike In overtime before the FG attempt Toohill was literally lined up on the giants side of the ball and they didn’t call it. It would have made it a 53 harder and Gano makes that FG. 
 

The reffing overall wasn’t good it let’s not paint it like it was only one way 

True, I thought that was a missed call.  But on the play before Allen was held in such an obvious way, but they kept their flag in their pocket.