Next Day Thread: Falcons Fall Flat

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Even if Heinicke had a great arm, that’s not the play to try and make there.  Which is why it’s a fact, not an opinion, that it was both a bad decision and throw.

 

 

 

 

[MartinC]

41 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I mean, it was a terrible decision and ball. I get defending Heinicke based on how the team plays when he is at the quarterback position, but people need to understand that Heinicke makes a lot of questionable decisions. Sometimes that results in miracle plays (Samuels against Minnesota, any time he lofts it to McLaurin and he makes a miraculous snag). Sometimes it results in ugly turnovers.

 

The throw from Heinicke that stood out to me that showed his limitation was the the attempt to hit Terry on the deep comeback on the sideline that was almost picked off (overturned on review). He just does not have the arm to make those "drive" throws. But I think he is getting better at playing within his limitations and taking care of the ball - making better decisions. There is normally still at least one a game that has you covering your eyes wondering what he was thinking though!

[ntotoro]

11 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Agreed it was a bad throw (arm strength). The timing was there if you look at where Jahan is and where the ball is. If the ball was a little higher it goes over the defender's head and right into Jahan's hands, possible or at worst an incompletion. The other two defenders are not as close and plenty of space between Jahan and them. Taylor had the right idea but the execution wasn't there. So yeah it was definitely a very bad throw. As for the decision he had two guys wide open underneath who could have gotten them more possible yards instead.

 

 

First thing I thought of with that play. Heiney has TWO guys open underneath for a bit of YAC, but says "**** it... I can DEWIT!!!" and throws a pickle into triple coverage.

Edited November 29, 2022 by ntotoro

[veteranskinsfan]

I thought early in the game it was clear our defense missed St. Juste who was injured.  Hope he can play next week and then we have the bye.

We have a really late bye this season which may turn out ok for our team.  Number 34 missed some tackles in the first quarter and I was screaming

at him from my tv room.  He covered their number 2 receiver so I think we were fortunate that their quarterback has throwing limitations.

[Koolblue13]

23 minutes ago, MrJL said:

Walker had to jump so I don't  believe that would qualify as an underthrow though I guess a guy with a stronger arm might have gotten it through there by throwing it faster so Walker wouldn't  have had the time to jum

He had to jump to beat his team mate to the catch. If neither of the guys underneath that pass existed, there is a chance that Dotson could have come back for that ball. It was a Heini Turkey floater afterall, but he still had a guy all over him.

 

It was a very dumb throw that was poorly executed. 

[mhd24]

13 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

The throw from Heinicke that stood out to me that showed his limitation was the the attempt to hit Terry on the deep comeback on the sideline that was almost picked off (overturned on review). He just does not have the arm to make those "drive" throws. But I think he is getting better at playing within his limitations and taking care of the ball - making better decisions. There is normally still at least one a game that has you covering your eyes wondering what he was thinking though!

 

He threw a pick 6 that was missed by a defender (who was looking to make a hit).  Any defender playing the ball takes it to the house.  That was a worse decision that the horrendous INT.  

[Thinking Skins]

12 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

First thing I thought of with that play. Heiney has TWO guys open underneath for a bit of YAC, but says "**** it... I can DEWIT!!!" and throws a pickle into triple coverage.

If he had arc on that he can get it over the lb and get a completion but it was a bad decision that he's made more than once (Minnesota)

15 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

The throw from Heinicke that stood out to me that showed his limitation was the the attempt to hit Terry on the deep comeback on the sideline that was almost picked off (overturned on review). He just does not have the arm to make those "drive" throws. But I think he is getting better at playing within his limitations and taking care of the ball - making better decisions. There is normally still at least one a game that has you covering your eyes wondering what he was thinking though!

His throws that I've been liking are the rollouts where he throws a pass directly to a WR 10 or so yards ahead of him. 

[skinny21]

Just now, MartinC said:

 

The throw from Heinicke that stood out to me that showed his limitation was the the attempt to hit Terry on the deep comeback on the sideline that was almost picked off (overturned on review). He just does not have the arm to make those "drive" throws. But I think he is getting better at playing within his limitations and taking care of the ball - making better decisions. There is normally still at least one a game that has you covering your eyes wondering what he was thinking though!

Yeah, I don’t mind (too much anyway) the heave it deep to Terry throws, but he’s gotta watch the boneheaded intermediate throws.  And to your point, he’s got virtually no business throwing comebacks.

 

My guess is that part off his issue is the combination of wanting to get the ball out quickly*, having that arm limitation, but also trusting himself (and his arm) a bit too much.  In other words, I think he sometimes sees a small window on an early read and lets loose, and sometimes it puts the ball in harms way.  The INT was an example of this I believe.  If he’d moved to the next read, he probably has one of the two guys underneath.  I think this is part of the reason his completion percentage is down as well - he’s not taking as much time going through his reads to find the best option.

 

* This is one aspect I really respect about Taylor.  He sees things that need to improve and works on it.  Worked his butt off to bulk up for a full season of taking hits, started sliding and getting out of bounds when scrambling, and now (presumably after seeing Wentz take a beating) he’s not holding the ball for ages.

[KDawg]

33 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

If he had arc on that he can get it over the lb and get a completion but it was a bad decision that he's made more than once (Minnesota)

His throws that I've been liking are the rollouts where he throws a pass directly to a WR 10 or so yards ahead of him. 

Heinicke is pretty bad on designed roll outs. Do you mean plays where he manipulates the pocket? Plays where he breaks the pocket and throws on the run?

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Heinicke is pretty bad on designed roll outs. Do you mean plays where he manipulates the pocket? Plays where he breaks the pocket and throws on the run?

 

Whatever this is

 

 

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Whatever this is

 

 

yeah, that's him side stepping in the pocket.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

yeah, that's him side stepping in the pocket.

Yeah, people want to see him run more. I want more of that

[MartinC]

34 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, I don’t mind (too much anyway) the heave it deep to Terry throws, but he’s gotta watch the boneheaded intermediate throws.  And to your point, he’s got virtually no business throwing comebacks.

 

He can throw comebacks and 'stick' throws - but he HAS to be on time. He can't be even slightly late. Requires him to be really good at seeing what the coverage is and anticipating - make his margin for error on those throws really small.

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah, people want to see him run more. I want more of that

 

I'd like to see them put at least some read option in for him. Just show it a couple of times a game to give the edge something to think about.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

He can throw comebacks and 'stick' throws - but he HAS to be on time. He can't be even slightly late. Requires him to be really good at seeing what the coverage is and anticipating - make his margin for error on those throws really small.

 

I'd like to see them put at least some read option in for him. Just show it a couple of times a game to give the edge something to think about.

Agreed, he pretty much has to be throwing before the break… and (IMO) the db can’t be tight, and the receiver has to keep coming back for it, and his mechanics have to be sound.  Small margin for error indeed.

[NeverSurrender]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

I can tell you WHY Heinicke made the decision.

 

He thought his arm strength was better than it is and he was going to put it over the top of 54 and 3 but he underthrew it into a triple coverage situation with two trails and one over.

 

It was a bad decision to throw to triple, over belief in his arm strength.

I think its 2 possible reasons for the throw.  (im not defending the decision, it was a bad decision) but I have been trying to understand this one.  

1) its possible TH didnt see #3 as both Larson and Norwell were right in the lane for a second so hey may not even have seen him. (this is not and excuse, its a possibility)

2) He did see #3 and thought he would drop and get Gibson coming out of the back field.

 

It looks like TH is trying to manipulate the secondary with his eyes here but it failed.  Terry is running a square in and teams are looking for that.  TH dosent turn his head that way at all just has eyes straight ahead possibly trying to hold the deep safety.  Either way bad decision, bad throw.  You live and learn.

[KDawg]

Just now, NeverSurrender said:

I think its 2 possible reasons for the throw.  (im not defending the decision, it was a bad decision) but I have been trying to understand this one.  

1) its possible TH didnt see #3 as both Larson and Norwell were right in the lane for a second so hey may not even have seen him. (this is not and excuse, its a possibility)

2) He did see #3 and thought he would drop and get Gibson coming out of the back field.

 

It looks like TH is trying to manipulate the secondary with his eyes here but it failed.  Terry is running a square in and teams are looking for that.  TH dosent turn his head that way at all just has eyes straight ahead possibly trying to hold the deep safety.  Either way bad decision, bad throw.  You live and learn.

Yeah, I disagree. I think he saw 3 and thought he had enough loft on it to get it over him. Instead he threw it 5 yards in front of the receiver and to his back foot. 

[NeverSurrender]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Yeah, I disagree. I think he saw 3 and thought he had enough loft on it to get it over him. Instead he threw it 5 yards in front of the receiver and to his back foot. 

Ohh yeah TH sucks, thats plausible too.  Wentz probably throws a dime for the TD.  Can we please put Wentz in!! 

[srtman04]

6 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Ohh yeah TH sucks, thats plausible too.  Wentz probably throws a dime for the TD.  Can we please put Wentz in!! 

 

Yeah, ONLY for that throw....then take him back out again immediately.  

[NeverSurrender]

13 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

 

Yeah, ONLY for that throw....then take him back out again immediately.  

Lets be honest, he probably takes a sack there, lets just put Mahomes in!

[Kelvin Bryant]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Yeah, I disagree. I think he saw 3 and thought he had enough loft on it to get it over him. Instead he threw it 5 yards in front of the receiver and to his back foot. 

This seems reasonable to me except that I don't think the pass was 5 yards short. A yard or so higher and a couple of yards to the left and he might have had a completion.

It's still a mistake, of course, but not the completely brain-dead hopeless throw into triple coverage that it first appeared.

[BleedBNG]

 

 

[NewCliche21]

3 hours ago, MartinC said:

I'd like to see them put at least some read option in for him. Just show it a couple of times a game to give the edge something to think about.

 

I was thinking about this after seeing Mariota averaging like 75 yards per run, but I think that Heinicke's running ability is great as a scrambler and not a designed runner. 

Much like a good comedian can make a scene work due to improv, not what's written in the script.

[KDawg]

50 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

This seems reasonable to me except that I don't think the pass was 5 yards short. A yard or so higher and a couple of yards to the left and he might have had a completion.

It's still a mistake, of course, but not the completely brain-dead hopeless throw into triple coverage that it first appeared.

No not totally brain dead. And actually it was a smart “risk” that still qualifies as a bad decision. But his arm strength is limiting and he doesn’t always realize it. That gets him in trouble at times. 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

I was thinking about this after seeing Mariota averaging like 75 yards per run, but I think that Heinicke's running ability is great as a scrambler and not a designed runner. 

Much like a good comedian can make a scene work due to improv, not what's written in the script.

 

Agreed - he's not a Jackson or even Marriota. Maybe not even a Daniel Jones in terms of mobility and running ability. But I still think hes athletic enough to just show the RPO and him being a t least a threat to keep it a couple of times a game. Put it on tape and teams have to prepare for it and it could hold a DE for just that half a second to spring something inside for a bigger gain.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Agreed - he's not a Jackson or even Marriota. Maybe not even a Daniel Jones in terms of mobility and running ability. But I still think hes athletic enough to just show the RPO and him being a t least a threat to keep it a couple of times a game. Put it on tape and teams have to prepare for it and it could hold a DE for just that half a second to spring something inside for a bigger gain.

 

My guess is he stinks at the read portion of it and leaves himself exposed too often. But that is an outsider perspective and I have no way of actually knowing.