Next Day Thread: Vikings Pillaged Our Pride

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I think there is a point about our defense not having Holcomb and being better, too. I'm not necessarily placing it ON Holcomb, but who is leading the D with him out? Some credit should go there.

Cam Curl was our green dot.

1 hour ago, El Mexican said:

 

Is he? Seems more like a receiving TE without the mobility of such types on other teams.

He led the league in block win rate as a rookie across the NFL. 

[NoCalMike]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I like Sweat more than some do.  My issue with him is he doesn't finish, pressure, yes but need some sacks.  I saw him get in Kirk's face a number of times but finish it! 

 

 

 

 

 

In his defense, I will say that QB's are being coached to get rid of the ball faster, even if it means bailing on the play, rather than taking a sack.  Some QB's are better than others at this. Some hold the ball too long regardless looking to make magic.  From what I was hearing going into this game Cousins is a QB who will gladly throw the ball away or into the ground in order to avoid losing the yards that come from a sack.   

[NoCalMike]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

General thoughts:

 

- Regardless of what we all think of Heiny-Heiny, one thing is clear: Ron and Scott think the only way you can win with Heiny-Heiny is the formula for the 4 game win streak last year + 3 game win streak this year:  

  -- Run the ball a ton, more runs than pass attempts, ideally

  -- Play extremely good defense

  -- Get 1 or 2 good thing to happen on ST or Defense

  -- Convert a few third downs and get 2 long drives which result in points

  -- Hope for 1-2 Moxy Magic moments

  -- Try to win something like a 20-17, 17-15 type of game.

  -- Don't make the big mistake to lose the game at the end.

 

And I don't think they are wrong.  And of the games TH has started since the 4-game winning streak has started, they've tried this in every game, and they've won 8 of them.  Even in games he doesn't play well, they won 5 last year (including the season finale at the Giants when TH was horrid but they used the same tactic), and the 3 games this year.

 

I don't think they are going to divert from this approach.  And our defense is probably good enough to keep us in a lot of games. Even if TH starts the rest of the season, they probably will win about as many games as they lose with that approach.  Best guess, they lose to the Eagles, could beat Houston and Atlanta, split with the Giants, and go 1-2 or 2-1 against SF, Cleveland and Dallas.  (Dallas might not be playing anybody).  So, assuming Heiny-Heiny starts the remainder of the year, they probably go 6-4-ish with him as the starter to finish around 7-10 or 9-8.  

 

I don't think they wanted to be that type of team, and that's why they put a "OPEN HOUSE!" sign out front of Command HQ for literally anybody who is better.  They ended up with Wentz. 

 

Yesterday was the absolute prototypical TH QB game:  

- They ran the ball 2 more times than they passed it, 30 vs. 28.  Some were by WRs and TEs. They averaged 4.6 yards a rush, including the WR/TE rushes. CHECK (form list above, these are going to be in the same order.)

- The defense was outstanding. CHECK.

- They got a pick in the end-zone and a 45 yard kickoff return from Gibson.  That's the "1 or 2 good things to happen on ST or Defense" part. CHECK.

- They had drives of 11 plays, and 2 10 play drives. CHECK

- They got 3! "moxie magic" moments, including having the back judge WRECK the safety who was about to make a play on the TD to Samuel.  2 really good throws with guys in his face where he bought time and made something happen.  Throw in a good throw on the TD to Milne if you want, that's 4 "Moxie Magic" plays.

- They were leading by 10 in the 4th quarter 17-7. On the way to a check but...

- TH threw a back-breaking INT to give the Vikings the ball deep in Commander's territory, and then they had a ST penalty which zapped any possibility of a last drive Moxie Magic moment.  

 

The issue with playing this way, you have to be perfect.  You have to be a little lucky.  And everything has to go exactly your way, or you lose.  There is no margin for error.

 

They absolutely, at least to this point, believe this is the only way to win with TH at QB. I don't know if they are right or wrong, but Scott Turner is basically his biggest fan and brings him everywhere he goes, so you'd think if he trusted TH to do more, he would have show that by this point.  But he hasn't, and that tells you really all you need know about what they really think of TH's abilities.  

 

 

 

You summed up TH pretty well.  And the biggest issue with him being the QB for any extended amount of time is the regression of the offense as well as his own play/output the longer he is playing.  A lot of people in his corner like to highlight 2-3 exciting plays he makes but want to ignore that in the end it is not amounting to a much.  The ceiling with TH is low, for points & wins.   The way the Commanders defense is playing right now, there isn't a team in the league they shouldn't have a chance at beating.......if........the offense could manage to score more points, but when 17 points a game is what you expect them to score, a good defense isn't enough to win consistently.   He isn't getting better he is pretty much the same guy out there as he was in 2021.  The margin for error with Heinicke out there is just so low that it leaves little to no room for anything to go wrong and still win, but most teams, even the good ones, don't play flawless games, even when they are winning.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Our D was really close to breaking up a few passes. Just great ball placement. Slightly worse placement and our D broke up several passes. See the interception. Both Curl and BSJ were inches away from tipping touchdowns.

 

We would have won if the Vikings had not traded for Hockenson.  He became a good weapon for Kirk who has been missing decent TE play.

 

Our DL is really coming together and it's more noticeable with a good LB hitting the gaps well. I think we need to keep Daron Payne now. Either franchise for one more year or offer him something similar to Allen.

 

If we draft a CB in the 1st this year while spending on OL in FA. The roster is going to look really good. Just need a QB...

 

Maybe Heinicke plays better with Dotson?

[BleedBNG]

The penalty call was correct. It was obviously PI, but if St. J had just kept his arms and hands away. So close.

 

[The Rook]

The Vikings' Dline is seriously legit!

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I like Sweat more than some do.  My issue with him is he doesn't finish, pressure, yes but need some sacks.  I saw him get in Kirk's face a number of times but finish it! 

 

 

 

 

 

I also don't think Sweat had a great game. Darrisaw seemed to handle him well.

 

If I had to guess the players who played the best on the Vikings offense yesterday were Jefferson/Darrisaw, then Hockenson, then Cousins/Cook/Thielen.

 

Darrisaw seemed to stonewall Sweat. I'm not sure later in the game if Sweat went against the RT for his pressures or if he figured out something against Darrisaw. But he was too invisible for awhile to get that type of PFF grade.

 

When does Cosmi return? Lucas is a fine backup, but starting against above average Edge defenders is not ideal. Would Cosmi be healthier if he was at Guard?

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I like Sweat more than some do.  My issue with him is he doesn't finish, pressure, yes but need some sacks.  I saw him get in Kirk's face a number of times but finish it! 

 

 

 

 

 

I also don't think Sweat had a great game. Darrisaw seemed to handle him well.

 

If I had to guess the players who played the best on the Vikings offense yesterday were Jefferson/Darrisaw, then Hockenson, then Cousins/Cook/Thielen.

 

Darrisaw seemed to stonewall Sweat. I'm not sure later in the game if Sweat went against the RT for his pressures or if he figured out something against Darrisaw. But he was too invisible for awhile to get that type of PFF grade.

 

When does Cosmi return? Lucas is a fine backup, but starting against above average Edge defenders is not ideal. Would Cosmi be healthier if he was at Guard?

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I like Sweat more than some do.  My issue with him is he doesn't finish, pressure, yes but need some sacks.  I saw him get in Kirk's face a number of times but finish it! 

 

 

 

 

 

I also don't think Sweat had a great game. Darrisaw seemed to handle him well.

 

If I had to guess the players who played the best on the Vikings offense yesterday were Jefferson/Darrisaw, then Hockenson, then Cousins/Cook/Thielen.

 

Darrisaw seemed to stonewall Sweat. I'm not sure later in the game if Sweat went against the RT for his pressures or if he figured out something against Darrisaw. But he was too invisible for awhile to get that type of PFF grade.

 

When does Cosmi return? Lucas is a fine backup, but starting against above average Edge defenders is not ideal. Would Cosmi be healthier if he was at Guard?

[skinzplay]

We have the offensive firepower to contend, but those weapons are not being properly used. AT ALL. I'm not on Twitter, but I know Keim said something to this effect a week or so ago. It was pretty damning (deservedly so) of our OC.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

We have the offensive firepower to contend, but those weapons are not being properly used. AT ALL. I'm not on Twitter, but I know Keim said something to this effect a week or so ago. It was pretty damning (deservedly so) of our OC.

How exactly can we contend with our QB’s?  
 

[mh86]

9 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

We have the offensive firepower to contend, but those weapons are not being properly used. AT ALL. I'm not on Twitter, but I know Keim said something to this effect a week or so ago. It was pretty damning (deservedly so) of our OC.

Quarterback 

[skinzplay]

Decision-making (personnel, play-calling, game and time mgmt) affects everything. "Organization failure" is the phrase Keim used a month or so back to describe the nonsense being produced outta Ashburn.

Just now, mh86 said:

Quarterback 

 

RR & Co inherited none of these QBs. They chose every one of them. If they're on the roster, however limited their physical abilities might be there's a chance you'll have to play one if those limited guys. I went to grad school at ODU, years before Heinicke. Love the kid, but I let him walk in the off-season.

[glongest]

I see some others are starting to recognize the same thing I recognized the very first game he came back.  Robinson is just not very impressive running the ball.  We will see but he certainly has not been the firepower many were talking about before he started actually playing.  

[Zim489]

19 minutes ago, glongest said:

I see some others are starting to recognize the same thing I recognized the very first game he came back.  Robinson is just not very impressive running the ball.  We will see but he certainly has not been the firepower many were talking about before he started actually playing.  

He likely won’t fumble. Won’t have bad plays. Will fall forward. 
 

He was just another example of fitting the way we want to try and win by this staff. Not beating yourself and keep yourself in it late. That works Vs bad teams and coin flips vs like teams but doesn’t work vs the good teams. 
 

It’s so uninspiring and mediocre. 

[srtman04]

25 minutes ago, glongest said:

I see some others are starting to recognize the same thing I recognized the very first game he came back.  Robinson is just not very impressive running the ball.  We will see but he certainly has not been the firepower many were talking about before he started actually playing.  

 

Maybe getting shot twice has something to do with it.....at least he doesn't fumble still gets decent chunks of yards.  

[CTskin]

Why aren’t we running any rpo? Heiny is an athlete. As we saw with RG and Alf the deception of rpo can turn average into special. Obviously the ceiling is lower here, but this would be effective.

 

I just really don’t like turner. He doesn’t scheme to our strengths or understand that our OL is trash.

 

as bad as this loss stung, the thought that one day in the next few months we’ll have a new owner washes it all away.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, glongest said:

I see some others are starting to recognize the same thing I recognized the very first game he came back.  Robinson is just not very impressive running the ball.  We will see but he certainly has not been the firepower many were talking about before he started actually playing.  

 

He did his job getting Gibson's attention, now time to give him his starting gig back. 

 

I've checked three different sites now, he hasn't fumbled all year...its time now.

[Warhead36]

50 minutes ago, CTskin said:

Why aren’t we running any rpo? Heiny is an athlete. As we saw with RG and Alf the deception of rpo can turn average into special. Obviously the ceiling is lower here, but this would be effective.

 

I just really don’t like turner. He doesn’t scheme to our strengths or understand that our OL is trash.

 

as bad as this loss stung, the thought that one day in the next few months we’ll have a new owner washes it all away.

Heiny is mobility but his speed is overstated. He's not some ridiculously fast athlete that you can design a run package around. He's also small so if you put him in lots of RPO he's more vulnerable to getting hit and injured.

[Tress Is The Way]

Any update on CY? Would love to have him available for Monday night..

[NoCalMike]

Robinson is seeming to have the same issues in the run game that Gibson did initially as a rookie, which is he is either too eager or not patient enough when following the play of where he is supposed to run.  There are a lot of carries where he gets the ball and initially runs right into his own blockers, and then manages to recover to still end up with a tough 3 yards, but the play should have net a good 5-6 yards.  The fact that he is a rookie, and the O-line isn't exactly a juggernaut at blocking to begin with, I am not going to give him the the too soon verdict like we all did with Jamin Davis.  Let's let the kid work this out as a rookie and see what happens.

[dunfer]

1 hour ago, ZarG3 said:

Any update on CY? Would love to have him available for Monday night..

Im sure he would too...any other year dan wouldve had him out there against the vikes. I want to see the guy play, but if its better to sit him out all year(exaggeration)...hes not missing anything. D isnt an issue. Does suck to waste rookie contract years on a guy like that though

Edited November 8, 2022 by dunfer

[RandyHolt]

When Perine got his first start(s) with Gruden here he would just lower his head and basically do FB dives IMO.  No reading of blocks no jump cuts no moves and was just blindly running the play where it was designed to go. Please tell me I am not the only one that remembers seeing this. It drew the ire of fans of course but to this day contend he was doing what Gruden asked of him because he was raw. Maybe Perine was having issues similar to what we are seeing right now with Robinson runs looking so... raw. Its like the game has not yet slowed down for him yet or is not being patient enough. Ron is just plowing ahead but I will say I am not seeing gaping holes he is missing. Run blocking with Taylor under center certainly looks like tough sledding. Of course there is a good chance Robinson is still literally and figuratively getting his legs back. It would be nice to see him break a few 10+ yard runs or better yet help us destroy Philly in Amazon Prime Time.

Edited November 9, 2022 by RandyHolt

[petey hodge]

 

if Ron doesnt throw that challenge flag on 3rd and 1....

 

We get the ball back with 55 seconds, right? 

 

Anyone going to talk about Ron's terrible clock management costing us this game?!

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, petey hodge said:

 

if Ron doesnt throw that challenge flag on 3rd and 1....

 

We get the ball back with 55 seconds, right? 

 

Anyone going to talk about Ron's terrible clock management costing us this game?!

It’s in the OP.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, ZarG3 said:

Any update on CY? Would love to have him available for Monday night..

 

Sme cautious optimism he plays

Edited November 9, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

My efforts on this game are done. Game over.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Professor_Nutter_Butter