New OC Thread (Welcome Aboard Eric Bieniemy!)

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Sucks that Dotson has a hammy. I thought those were far more common in us old dogs. If he were healthy with his stats projected would be probably leading the league in TDs. Terrace Who!

I think you’re right - they’re more common in older guys - but, bearing in mind that I have no idea what I’m talking about, I think there’s an element of younger guys not always taking care of their bodies or knowing their limits.

[RandyHolt]

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I think you’re right - they’re more common in older guys - but, bearing in mind that I have no idea what I’m talking about, I think there’s an element of younger guys not always taking care of their bodies or knowing their limits.

True dat. I think we all remember young WRs rarely to never contributing significantly their first year or 2 or simply beat out by an old lessor skilled vet time and time again cough James Thrash. You know why the young guys failed - didn't put in the physical prep work to be able to handle the vigors of playing NFL WR. Taking care of their bodies. And outworked the green horns.

 

Pains me as I want to see him but I think Ron should add a week to whenever everyone thinks Dotson is ready. Especially Dotson.

Edited November 11, 2022 by RandyHolt

[Warhead36]

Hammies can happen to anyone and they just don't go away for a while. Has nothing to do with age or health.

[FLSkinz83]

I think Turner is mostly bad.  One of my biggest issue with him is that he runs plays that work once and we never see them again.

 

For example:

 

1) Curtis samuel gets a 16 yard run in the 1st Q.   No more runs the rest of the game.  I don't even recall him in the backfield as a decoy

 

2) They ran a wildcat once with Armani Rogers a few weeks ago.  Haven't seen it since.

 

3) Remember the 4 receiver stack formation from week 1?  great play.  Have we seen it since?

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I think Turner is mostly bad.  One of my biggest issue with him is that he runs plays that work once and we never see them again.

 

For example:

 

1) Curtis samuel gets a 16 yard run in the 1st Q.   No more runs the rest of the game.  I don't even recall him in the backfield as a decoy

I actually recall seeing him line up in the backfield several times every game, either as a decoy or actually getting the ball.  The other thing is, you also want Samuel on the LOS or in motion because he's good at that also.  Frankly, I don't think this is a problem.  

 

3 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

2) They ran a wildcat once with Armani Rogers a few weeks ago.  Haven't seen it since.

That really is a trick play, like the flea flicker which should have been a TD if not for the worst QB in the league being our savior, according to a lot of fans.  

 

Should they use the trick plays a few more times?  Maybe.  But I'd also prefer they be able to run some standard plays without having to go to the bag of tricks constantly. 

 

3 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

3) Remember the 4 receiver stack formation from week 1?  great play.  Have we seen it since?

We have.  We also have seen 4 folks in the backfield a few times.  The thing is, those are gimmicks.  They work once or twice.  Once they're on film, teams will have a plan for them, and they won't work near as well.

 

 

To be honest, those are not my issues with Turner.  I have different issues with Turner.

 

1. They RARELY (it does happen, but not often) use hurry up.  Everything is slow, plodding, deliberate.  It's like the offense is always walking around in molasses.  The use of tempo just doesn't seem to be a thing in their offense.  They used it at times early in the season with Wentz, which was great to see.  Then they completely went away from it unless they absolutely have to use it.  

 

2. When you have a QB who is at best the 45th best thrower of the football in the NFL, and it might be worse than that, but does have athleticism and speed, use it for God's sake.  Read-options.  Designed runs.  TH should be getting 10 designed carries a game.  Because he can't throw the ball.  Use what he can do, and run.  And if he gets hurt, that might be a blessing because you would luck into a QB who might be able to throw the ball AND run.  

 

3. Spread the field more on short yardage situations.  We don't have the OL which can just move people out of the way consistently.  Spread the field to force the defense to cover more of the field, which removes guys from the box, and then run the ball.  

 

4. Realize how atrocious TH is and stop playing him because he's your damn binky and can call the offense. Develop Howell to run at least a set of plays, and be creative in getting him reps.  There are a bunch of QBs playing where you go, "who now?"  I'm not going to say Howell is the next Brees or anything.  But to be honest, he just can't be worse, because TH is that bad.  Turner needs to grow the eff up and bench his ass. 

 

Turner knows the exact formula to win with TH.  I give him credit for that.  Run the ball, run it some more, get lucky on some third downs, get 2-3 moxie magic plays, win 17-15.  

 

What I have trouble with is he doesn't seem to have figured out a formula for anybody else. And you can't win in the NFL scoring 17 points per game. 

[skinny21]

8 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I think Turner is mostly bad.  One of my biggest issue with him is that he runs plays that work once and we never see them again.

 

For example:

 

1) Curtis samuel gets a 16 yard run in the 1st Q.   No more runs the rest of the game.  I don't even recall him in the backfield as a decoy

 

2) They ran a wildcat once with Armani Rogers a few weeks ago.  Haven't seen it since.

 

3) Remember the 4 receiver stack formation from week 1?  great play.  Have we seen it since?

I’d add the Qb option pitch (unless that’s the run by Samuel you’re talking about?), and the TE screen to Rogers.  
Now, to be fair, there are factors like how D’s line up, how successful they are vs this stuff, and crafting the game plan to attack certain things.  

As I’ve said before, there are things I’ve liked from Turner and things I haven’t.  I recognize he’s also been put in a tough spot in terms of qbs, and the oline.  
 

On a related note, I don’t put too much stock into the “he schemed guys wide open” sentiment.  I’m not saying it’s wrong, I just don’t weight it too heavily without knowing things like - should this open guy have been the 1st/2nd read, or were they (by design) the 4th/5th read?  Did the play get the man open, or was it a coverage breakdown (or a poorly called defense)?  We get glimpses into this - like Heinicke saying he should have pulled the trigger to Milne - but usually it feels like we do not have enough info to be certain.  I could be way wrong of course.  

[FLSkinz83]

48 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I actually recall seeing him line up in the backfield several times every game, either as a decoy or actually getting the ball.  The other thing is, you also want Samuel on the LOS or in motion because he's good at that also.  Frankly, I don't think this is a problem.  

 

I don't recall him in the backfield in the Vikings game at all.   and one carry isn't enough for a guy averaging 7 yards per carry.   especially when you can't run the ball traditionally and the offense is mostly inept.

 

50 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

That really is a trick play, like the flea flicker which should have been a TD if not for the worst QB in the league being our savior, according to a lot of fans.  

 

Should they use the trick plays a few more times?  Maybe.  But I'd also prefer they be able to run some standard plays without having to go to the bag of tricks constantly. 

 

It's not really a trick play because it's a pre-snap formation.   Rogers was a college QB.   once again, we are not maximizing our personnel.   

 

The flea flicker to Bates was an idiotic play call, IMO.   Running long developing trick plays in the red zone makes no sense.  The field is too condensed,   

 

54 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We have.  We also have seen 4 folks in the backfield a few times.  The thing is, those are gimmicks.  They work once or twice.  Once they're on film, teams will have a plan for them, and they won't work near as well.

 

I don't recall seeing a 4 stack Receiver look since week 1.     These are not gimmicks.   These are formations that confuse a defense and get guys open underneath.  

57 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

1. They RARELY (it does happen, but not often) use hurry up.  Everything is slow, plodding, deliberate.  It's like the offense is always walking around in molasses.  The use of tempo just doesn't seem to be a thing in their offense.  They used it at times early in the season with Wentz, which was great to see.  Then they completely went away from it unless they absolutely have to use it.  

 

2. When you have a QB who is at best the 45th best thrower of the football in the NFL, and it might be worse than that, but does have athleticism and speed, use it for God's sake.  Read-options.  Designed runs.  TH should be getting 10 designed carries a game.  Because he can't throw the ball.  Use what he can do, and run.  And if he gets hurt, that might be a blessing because you would luck into a QB who might be able to throw the ball AND run.  

 

3. Spread the field more on short yardage situations.  We don't have the OL which can just move people out of the way consistently.  Spread the field to force the defense to cover more of the field, which removes guys from the box, and then run the ball.  

 

I agree with these.  

[Koolblue13]

I think Turner is like a race engine. If everything is working in perfect harmony it's gonna rip the track up, but if something goes wrong, it doesn't work at all and probably explodes. Other coaches are better at taking the stock 460 that's running on 7 cylinders and still finish the race, while building up what they do have.

[veteranskinsfan]

Some day Turner will leave this team and then we will see what the rest of the NFL thinks of him.  I doubt he gets another job unless one of Norv's buddies hires him.

He is not a top 15 offensive coordinator in the NFL.  I do not care who is at quarterback and who he has for offensive linemen.  Yes, he can balance the number of pass plays vs.

run plays called but he really can't produce sustained drives even when we win games by one or two points.  

[skinzplay]

Turner's ceiling for the 4-5 years after leaving the Redskins will be as a QB Coach, unless he goes to Canada or the NCAA. Not a single team inquired about him or contacted him as a potential OC prior to his signing on in Washington. Same for RR in the capacity of HC.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

The flea flicker to Bates was an idiotic play call, IMO.   Running long developing trick plays in the red zone makes no sense.  The field is too condensed,   

It was WIDE open.  All TH had to do was hit it, and it was a TD.  He missed it by 15 yards.  But the call got a guy wide open for a TD.  Not sure what more you want?

 

I just went back and looked.  If TH had any type of an NFL arm, that's a TD.  Turner got Bates between the safety and the DB, wide open by 5 yards, and TH overthrew him by 15 yards. 

 

Even with TH's noodle arm, he should have made that throw.

 

I'd argue 50% of HS QBs could make that throw.

 

There was really nothing wrong with the play call.  LOS was the 23.  He releases it from the 34.  And he couldn't control the ball to get it to a completely wide open guy.

 

He was also standing between the hash mark and the sideline.  This ball had to travel ~30 yards.  

 

I disagree. I think when you are a struggling offense, and you can scheme up a guy wide open for a TD, and everything works the way it's supposed to, but your dumbass QB can't hit a guy literally 30 yards in front of him with a dart, that's not on the OC.  

 

Turner couldn't have made an easier TD throw/catch for TH.  He blew it.

 

You can try and argue Turner can't call one single good play in a game, you'd be entirely wrong about that.  When TH is QB, he actually calls a great game given who is at QB, for the most part. 

 

I just don't think people realize just how absolutely lousy TH is, play in, play out, minus the 3-4 moxie-magic plays a game.  He's just absolutely terrible at just about everything, just about all the time.

 

Which is why I say, don't let him throw at all, just run him in the wishbone.  Would be more effective.  And when he gets hurt, you will land in a better situation no matter what, because he's that bad.  

[FLSkinz83]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It was WIDE open.  All TH had to do was hit it, and it was a TD.  He missed it by 15 yards.  But the call got a guy wide open for a TD.  Not sure what more you want?

 

I just went back and looked.  If TH had any type of an NFL arm, that's a TD.  Turner got Bates between the safety and the DB, wide open by 5 yards, and TH overthrew him by 15 yards. 

 

Even with TH's noodle arm, he should have made that throw.

 

I'd argue 50% of HS QBs could make that throw.

 

There was really nothing wrong with the play call.  LOS was the 23.  He releases it from the 34.  And he couldn't control the ball to get it to a completely wide open guy.

 

He was also standing between the hash mark and the sideline.  This ball had to travel ~30 yards.  

 

I disagree. I think when you are a struggling offense, and you can scheme up a guy wide open for a TD, and everything works the way it's supposed to, but your dumbass QB can't hit a guy literally 30 yards in front of him with a dart, that's not on the OC.  

 

Turner couldn't have made an easier TD throw/catch for TH.  He blew it.

 

You can try and argue Turner can't call one single good play in a game, you'd be entirely wrong about that.  When TH is QB, he actually calls a great game given who is at QB, for the most part. 

 

I just don't think people realize just how absolutely lousy TH is, play in, play out, minus the 3-4 moxie-magic plays a game.  He's just absolutely terrible at just about everything, just about all the time.

 

Which is why I say, don't let him throw at all, just run him in the wishbone.  Would be more effective.  And when he gets hurt, you will land in a better situation no matter what, because he's that bad.  

 

I thought you were the voice of reason?    We agree to disagree.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I thought you were the voice of reason?    We agree to disagree.  

I am.  And your view isn’t reasonable.  It comes off as just hating the OC because you don’t want to put blame where it lies.  
 

Kinda sounds like a hiver, to get honest.  
 

If you can’t see the open guy and then QB missed him by 15 yards for a TD and still complain about a play call that essentially worked, there is no logic reason except agenda.  

Edited November 12, 2022 by Voice_of_Reason

[FLSkinz83]

50 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I am.  And your view isn’t reasonable.  It comes off as just hating the OC because you don’t want to put blame where it lies.  
 

Kinda sounds like a hiver, to get honest.  
 

If you can’t see the open guy and then QB missed him by 15 yards for a TD and still complain about a play call that essentially worked, there is no logic reason except agenda.  

 

I just think you're being harsh to a guy who's 9-9 as a starter.   I'm not saying he's the long term answer.  I think Howell has a better future.

[FootballZombie]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It was WIDE open.  All TH had to do was hit it, and it was a TD.  He missed it by 15 yards.  But the call got a guy wide open for a TD.  Not sure what more you want?

 

 

That pass was so off target I honestly thought it was a throw away while watching it live.

 

TH's reaction to his own pass was as telling as anything. The ball went absolutely nowhere near where he wanted it to go.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I just think you're being harsh to a guy who's 9-9 as a starter.   I'm not saying he's the long term answer.  I think Howell has a better future.

I knew it! A hiver who can’t tell that the 9-9 record is more to do with Scott Turner figuring out how to eeek the smallest amount of production out of a talentless backup than the talentless backup’s ability to play.  The hero of every TH win are the defense, Gibson/running game and luck.  If the Giants don’t jump off-sides on a missed FG, they lose that game.  There are examples of just blind luck in every game.  
 

FWIW, do you know in his last 5 victories, which really had almost nothing to do with him, they didn’t break 22 points?  17, 17, 22, 21, 17.  
 

The margins of vice fort were 2,2, 15,  2, 1. They could have easily lost each of those games except the Giants game.  The team did not win those games because of TH, they won in spite of him.  

 

The 15 point victory, TH had nothing to do with.  It was the season finale against a giants team which had given up and he still only threw for 99 yards. McCain had 2 INTs, Gibson bad 150 yards rushing.

 

Turner knows when TH is playing QB, you have to run the snot out of the ball, pray for 2-3 moxie-miracle plays and TH doesn’t screw it up with a turnover like he did against the Vikings.  

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

44 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

That pass was so off target I honestly thought it was a throw away while watching it live.

 

TH's reaction to his own pass was as telling as anything. The ball went absolutely nowhere near where he wanted it to go.

And it was by NFL standards an easy throw. The play took him in the direction of the receiver, so he wasn’t throwing from the. Enter of the field to the sideline.  He was between the numbers and the hash.  It was released at 35 and Bates has standing wide open at the 5.  
 

it’s a 35 yard pass, nobody in front of you.  
 

I get there we’re shenanigans before the throw, but it did what it intended to do: get a guy wide open down field for a TD.  And a clean passing lane.  Just hit the throw.  
 

And he missed it by a country mile.  
 

It was one of the worst NFL throws I’ve ever seen.  Because it wasn’t a hard throw.

 

The other thing, the idiot announcers crushes the play call without acknowledging the receiver was wide open and TH just flat missed him.  

[method man]

On 11/11/2022 at 12:52 PM, skinzplay said:

Turner's ceiling for the 4-5 years after leaving the Redskins will be as a QB Coach, unless he goes to Canada or the NCAA. Not a single team inquired about him or contacted him as a potential OC prior to his signing on in Washington. Same for RR in the capacity of HC.

Agreed with this. Even then, with the Turner/Coryell system dying in the NFL, he may be fully out of the league after this stint as I would assume all of these WC offense OCs would want WC offense QB coaches

[Zim489]

It looks obvious to me that Ron and Scott are terrified of Taylor getting hurt by running him. Forcing them to play Howell in a "must win" season

[RandyHolt]

15 hours ago, Zim489 said:

It looks obvious to me that Ron and Scott are terrified of Taylor getting hurt by running him. Forcing them to play Howell in a "must win" season

Agree they have concerns about injuries. We know Taylor would be more effective using his wheels / a threat to run but like all coaches with the modern day mobile QB they have to weigh injury risk and pump the brakes knowing the QB may break.  Kyle had no such concerns with RG3. I have been vocal saying Turner should use Taylor's wheels to let him throw out of the pocket on designed plays but get pushback from big dogs that he can't make those throws. Not so breaking news: he cant make the simple throws from the pocket either.

 

Turner and RR are likely also terrified of letting him roll out knowing he will instinctively turn to run if needed. Someone tell Turner QBs running have never been more protected. If Carson is scheduled back next week or not its a perfect week vs the best team to roll the dice and let him run and catch their DC off guard. Use Taylor wheels early and then dial it back when Philly adjusts and let our D win it from there. Maybe its the only way to win. Howell if pressed into duty it would only be a game.

Edited November 13, 2022 by RandyHolt

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

16 hours ago, Zim489 said:

It looks obvious to me that Ron and Scott are terrified of Taylor getting hurt by running him. Forcing them to play Howell in a "must win" season

You are predisposed to make the absolute worst assumptions about Ron, but this is a new one.  The Hive loves this take, as they spent most of last season saying Taylor wasn’t running because the coaches were telling him not to.  Even though all the dialog coming from the coaches sounded like they wanted him to run more.

 

I don’t think for a second that Ron and Scott somehow believe they have to preserve Heinicke to save the season, to the extent they don’t want him running to avoid injury.

 

Coaches want to win, obviously - they aren’t thinking about draft order at this juncture.  But it’s a stretch to assume the coaches are scared to death of a Heinicke injury derailing the season.

 

 

[Warhead36]

We don't run Heinicke more because he's actually not a dominant runner. People talk like he's Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray or something. He's elusive and can get away but he's not some crazy athlete that can rip 20+ yard runs. He's good at escaping pressure in the pocket and picking up some junk yards here and there but that's about it. He doesn't have mobility that you can build an offense around and he's too small to take the regular pounding that that entails.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Warhead36

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:34 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

And it was by NFL standards an easy throw. The play took him in the direction of the receiver, so he wasn’t throwing from the. Enter of the field to the sideline.  He was between the numbers and the hash.  It was released at 35 and Bates has standing wide open at the 5.  
 

it’s a 35 yard pass, nobody in front of you.  
 

I get there we’re shenanigans before the throw, but it did what it intended to do: get a guy wide open down field for a TD.  And a clean passing lane.  Just hit the throw.  
 

And he missed it by a country mile.  
 

It was one of the worst NFL throws I’ve ever seen.  Because it wasn’t a hard throw.

 

The other thing, the idiot announcers crushes the play call without acknowledging the receiver was wide open and TH just flat missed him.  

What’s crazy is he might have topped that ugly throw with his int on 2nd and 11. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

What’s crazy is he might have topped that ugly throw with his int on 2nd and 11. 

They were both equally bad.  The TD was a bad decision, the INT was a bad throw.

[Hooper]

All I know is we had Kevin O'Connell on the staff. And that Haskins looked more than competent under him (which now looks like a minor miracle). Ron comes in, gives him a courtesy interview because he knew the media loved KOC, but both KOC and Ron knew Turner was going to be the OC.

 

Cut to this year, KOC is now frontrunner for coach of the year. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Hooper