Game Day Thread - Washingburgh at Dallas

[RoseHill]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't really live and die with any of our coaches.   

 

I'll take a crash season if it demoralizes Dan (I know I know some including you, think I am a dreamer on this) to sell.  Some evidence that this is a big season for Dan -- rebranding, trying to sell to Virginia that they are a good bet for a stadium -- a team on the rise, avoiding being the bottom of the league in ticket sales, pressure from other owners, etc. 

 

As for Ron.   It looks like he may have bet on the wrong horse with Wentz.  I haven't been impressed so far.  But I am still open minded.  And yeah the idea that Masko can make lemonade out of lemons might be the arrogant fatal Shakesperean flaw from the off season.  Maybe there was really something to the record of with or without Scherff.   If I recall during his career we are like 4-22 or something insanely bad without him.  Would I've paid him 17 million no.  But replacing Scherff with just a guy and then ditto Flowers and then compounded with Rouillier's injury has arguably trashed the season. 

But there were two Carolina guys out there

[Skintime]

Just now, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

Im fully aware it’s pre Dan, nothing I say is a defence for him, but I don’t think Ron etc should get a free ride cause his boss is useless

I think the ride is due to nobody willing to coach here due to Dan

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't really live and die with any of our coaches.   

I know.  But Jay was still a horrendous coach.

 

Ron wasn't.  He might be trending in that direction though. However, I'm not sure how much "coaching" Ron is doing.  He's kindof the CEO.  But the stock price is in free-fall and there is no end in site.  So, eh, I'm not sure he survives this if it free-falls the entire season.  

 

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I'll take a crash season if it demoralizes Dan (I know I know some including you, think I am a dreamer on this) to sell.  Some evidence that this is a big season for Dan -- rebranding, trying to sell to Virginia that they are a good bet for a stadium -- a team on the rise, avoiding being the bottom of the league in ticket sales, pressure from other owners, etc. 

Yeah, that's never going to happen. But, keep dreaming.  I like your optimism.  

 

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As for Ron.   It looks like he may have bet on the wrong horse with Wentz.  I haven't been impressed so far.  But I am still open minded.  And yeah the idea that Masko can make lemonade out of lemons might be the arrogant fatal Shakesperean flaw from the off season.  Maybe there was really something to the record of with or without Scherff.   If I recall during his career we are like 4-22 or something insanely bad without him.  Would I've paid him 17 million no.  But replacing Scherff with just a guy and then ditto Flowers and then compounded with Rouillier's injury has arguably trashed the season. 

I literally have no way to know if he bet on the right or wrong horse with Wentz because of what I think you aptly identified as the Shakespearian flaw. 

 

I bought into the idea Masko could just pull together a good OL from whatever he had.

 

But it appears as though players have to have some talent and ours don't.

 

I did say all along it was hubris to go into the season without a backup center, and assume Schweitzer who missed most of last year was going to be able to be either a starter at Guard and backup center.  They needed another center who could play.  Losing Rouiller and Schweitzer now has put Charles and Turner on the field, and I literally have no idea who played center today.   

 

Wentz still could be good.  I really think he could be.  But he can't if he doesn't have any time.  And what's even weirder is Ron said a million times "we have to protect him and surround him with weapons."  Well, they seem to have gotten part 2 down.  Part 1 is an epic fail.  

[tomwvr]

Right now we are inline for the 3rd pick

[Redskins 2021]

6 minutes ago, Panninho said:

Im what world is Wentz up and down? He had one good throw today, that was the TD. He has been just as bad as the o-line.

 

 He played ok against Jacksonville and ok against Detroit second half. He was terrible against Dallas and Philadelphia.

When the level of defense has picked he has not played well. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[ntotoro]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As for Wentz judging by my own amateurish eyes but more so with the experts on offense -- Cooley and Paulsen.  Wentz is indeed part of the problem with sacks.  He's not the main problem but he's not a pure victim of it either. 

You’d be in the ER if you had to take a shot every time Wentz ran into a lineman, held on to the ball too long or failed to step up in the pocket when he had one. The O-Line is bad and that’s ultimately on Rivera. I don’t see Wentz being significantly better with a good O-Line, based on the mistakes he makes.

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Mmhmm. The problem is that when he had time he threw the ball in the dirt. 
 

There’s some fault on Wentz. You can’t absolve him. But the line was much worse than Wentz.

I'm not fully absolving Wentz.  But if you get punched in the head enough, it has a compounding effect, and will do things to you when the pressure isn't there.

 

I agree, Wentz needs to be more accurate when he has time.  

 

But I still think the 3 weeks of lack of protection has screwed with his head, and now he's just flustered.  I don't necessarily blame him from being flustered.

 

I agree he needs to play better when he has time.  But we need to make that more than 10 plays a game.  

[Skintime]

1 minute ago, Redskins 2021 said:

 He played ok against Jacksonville and ok against Detroit second half. He was terrible against Dallas and Philadelphia.

When the level of defense has picked he has not played well.

Also teams have tape on what we are doing and are able to plan for what they know will not change. Turner keeps running the same crap over and over

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, MAATopDogg said:

Good Points. 80% of the problems with the offense starts with Scott Turner. He’s can make adjustments and isn’t innovative. The QB shouldn’t  be getting hit numerous times

I wouldn't say 80%.  

 

I've seen him try to adjust.  But he's so limited by the OL. It's so ironic.  First he had to work around noodle armed QBs (Smith, Heinicke being the 2 who played most), then he gets a legitimate QB with talent, and he can't keep him upright.  

 

We needed Wentz with last year's OL.  

[BleedBNG]

Okay, here's the dilemma... we can't have another year with Wentz. I know the O sucks but so does Wentz. We can't have another year with RR either. We need to put in Howell to prep for next year. I know, I know you don't do that because it's not how it's done. I don't care. What's the use in wasting our time without Howell if Wentz won't be here next year? I'm not saying Howell will get us anymore wins, but why have him ready for next year without any experience? Right now we're just wasting our time watching a crummy offense with a QB who when he finally escapes out of the pocket ends up throwing INT's.

[CO68]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No, but I've listened to enough Smoot to know he has no idea what the hell he's looking at, ever.  He yaps and runs his mouth and is entertaining.  

 

Also, I think "blame the QB" is a low-football-intelligence go-to for people who literally have no idea what just happened. But they want to sound smart.  And, to other people who don't know what they just watched, they do look smart.  

For people who know what they are watching, they sound like idiots.  

You put 0 blame on him and it’s ridiculous. People who put 0 blame on the QB are just as bad as you’re trying to point out. Poor decisions, poor throws, holds the ball way too long, 0 pocket awareness, actually runs into sacks instead of avoiding them, and has had to rely on receivers making great catches. 

[JSSkinz]

The O line is as bad as I've seen but when you do have protection you have to make a play, you can't overthrow it or roll out and create an intentional grounding or run a 3rd and 3 into a 8 man box.

 

We did see the inaccuracy in week one but I think Wentz was confident and ready against the Jags but starting with game two the O line has sucked the life out of him.

 

Wentz doesn't seem like a QB who can improvise and were going to need a lot of improvisation this year.

 

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

Right now we are inline for the 3rd pick

 

Better be a QB...

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

You’d be in the ER if you had to take a shot every time Wentz ran into a lineman, held on to the ball too long or failed to step up in the pocket when he had one. The O-Line is bad and that’s ultimately on Rivera. I don’t see Wentz being significantly better with a good O-Line, based on the mistakes he makes.

When he was protected against Jax and second half of Detroit, he through 7 TDs in 2 games. 

 

He CAN be good.  

 

But if he doesn't have time, he's absolutely horrendous.  

1 minute ago, BleedBNG said:

Okay, here's the dilemma... we can't have another year with Wentz. I know the O sucks but so does Wentz. We can't have another year with RR either. We need to put in Howell to prep for next year. I know, I know you don't do that because it's not how it's done. I don't care. What's the use in wasting our time without Howell if Wentz won't be here next year? I'm not saying Howell will get us anymore wins, but why have him ready for next year without any experience? Right now we're just wasting our time watching a crummy offense with a QB who when he finally escapes out of the pocket ends up throwing INT's.

There is no way I'm putting Howell out there to get the snot beaten out of him.  If you need a sacrificial lamb, but in Heinicke to take the beating.  He's going to be off the team next year anyway. 

[London Kev]

We had too many penalties today (mainly by the O-line and WJ3). Only gave up two sacks, but Wentz was hit eleven times and hurried all day. Until the O-line gets it together we ain't winning anything. Maybe Wentz was a bit slow with his decision making on a few plays, but he mostly had no time at all.

 

I hate to say it, but I have to give some props to Diggs, he completely shut Terry down today, which isn't easy. Terry will have lots of big games, but today he was well covered.

 

I thought that the defense played well (apart from WJ3), although I didn't like Davis covering Lamb so many times.

 

We're already three games behind the eagles and two behind dallas and the giants after only four games. It don't look good so far.

[tomwvr]

3 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

The O line is as bad as I've seen but when you do have protection you have to make a play, you can't overthrow it or roll out and create an intentional grounding or run a 3rd and 3 into a 8 man box.

 

We did see the inaccuracy in week one but I think Wentz was confident and ready against the Jags but starting with game two the O line has sucked the life out of him.

 

Wentz doesn't seem like a QB who can improvise and were going to need a lot of improvisation this year.

 

I get the feeling that things have to be perfect for wentz and this team is far from that

[BleedBNG]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

When he was protected against Jax and second half of Detroit, he through 7 TDs in 2 games. 

 

He CAN be good.  

 

But if he doesn't have time, he's absolutely horrendous.  

There is no way I'm putting Howell out there to get the snot beaten out of him.  If you need a sacrificial lamb, but in Heinicke to take the beating.  He's going to be off the team next year anyway. 

OK, that's a good point. So we start Howell fresh for next year?

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, CO68 said:

You put 0 blame on him and it’s ridiculous. People who put 0 blame on the QB are just as bad as you’re trying to point out. Poor decisions, poor throws, holds the ball way too long, 0 pocket awareness, actually runs into sacks instead of avoiding them, and has had to rely on receivers making great catches. 

That's not true.  I put some blame on him.  

 

But if you don't think the constant pressure gets to a QB, you're fooling yourself.  As @KDawg said, pressure cost Brady an undefeated season.  And that was in 1 game. 

 

Wentz had the snot beaten out of him in 2020, and he was awful and just took it.  Then he was under pressure all last year.  He comes here, and it might be worse than either of the 2 previous years.

 

If you don't think that screws with a guy, you're nuts.

 

He needs to play better.  But I understand somewhat why he's playing badly.  I'd like to see him play when he's not having to evade after 1 second and see how he can do, then pass judgement.  

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I know.  But Jay was still a horrendous coach.

 

Ron wasn't.  He might be trending in that direction though. However, I'm not sure how much "coaching" Ron is doing.  He's kindof the CEO.  But the stock price is in free-fall and there is no end in site.  So, eh, I'm not sure he survives this if it free-falls the entire season.  

 

Yeah, that's never going to happen. But, keep dreaming.  I like your optimism.  

 

 

You like to say the culture is set by the coach not the owner in the context of the current regime at least..  I wish I agreed with you.  If so my venom would be directed back then at Jay, too. 

 

12 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

Wentz still could be good.  I really think he could be.  But he can't if he doesn't have any time.  And what's even weirder is Ron said a million times "we have to protect him and surround him with weapons."  Well, they seem to have gotten part 2 down.  Part 1 is an epic fail.  

 

I am not married to being right about things.  So while I liked the deal.  i am open minded to being wrong.  So far 28 million for Wentz doesn't look to be a sharp move.  But there is plenty of time for the script to play out and turn around, will see.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, BleedBNG said:

OK, that's a good point. So we start Howell fresh for next year?

No idea.  But if they are in line for a top 5, or even #1 overall pick, then you take a QB there.  

 

Howell would be the backup.  Heinicke isn't on this team next year, one way or another.  He probably isn't on any team, but certainly not this team.  

 

The thing is, they probably are 3 OL from being an outstanding offense.  They have good skill position players.  

 

I might actually do something really weird: I might trade sweat right now for a starting interior OL.  He hasn't lived up to expectations, and they can play without him, and they aren't going to re-sign him anyway.  Go get a starting guard or center.  

 

You need offense more than defense in this league.  

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

14 minutes ago, Skintime said:

I think the ride is due to nobody willing to coach here due to Dan

It’s a HC role in the NFL, regardless of ownership it will have takers, admittedly it’s a longer shot as to whether anyone from the market we’d be shopping in could come good

[CarlH]

How'd Jamin do today? I saw something saying he was on Lamb a lot but thats pretty much it...

[tomwvr]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You like to say the culture is set by the coach not the owner in the context of the current regime at least..  I wish I agreed with you.  If so my venom would be directed back then at Jay, too. 

 

 

I am not married to being right about things.  So while I liked the deal.  i am open minded to being wrong.  So far 28 million for Wentz doesn't look to be a sharp move.  But there is plenty of time for the script to play out and turn around, will see.

We need to get more than 7 wins to make it worth it. We paid a guy that many people say cant play qb 1.2 million last year and we won 7 games. 
sorry but 28 million waisted if we dont improve 

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No idea.  But if they are in line for a top 5, or even #1 overall pick, then you take a QB there.  

 

Howell would be the backup.  Heinicke isn't on this team next year, one way or another.  He probably isn't on any team, but certainly not this team.  

 

The thing is, they probably are 3 OL from being an outstanding offense.  They have good skill position players.  

 

I might actually do something really weird: I might trade sweat right now for a starting interior OL.  He hasn't lived up to expectations, and they can play without him, and they aren't going to re-sign him anyway.  Go get a starting guard or center.  

 

You need offense more than defense in this league.  

You are on point. Taylor wont be playing next year. But neither will wentz 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You like to say the culture is set by the coach not the owner in the context of the current regime at least..  I wish I agreed with you.  If so my venom would be directed back then at Jay, too. 

I think it's flipped somewhat with Ron and Jason vs. Dan and Bruce.  Dan's still around, but by all reported accounts, he's really not there much, and let's Ron do his thing.  He wasn't even at the draft.  I get it, he doesn't have to BE there to meddle.  But he was sitting at the head of the table when we drafted Haskins.  Granted, he wasn't there because he was hiding from Congress, so if he was able to get back in the country, maybe he would have been there...

 

Jay was given a purple-nerple by DJax.  He should have bee fired that evening.  Shows lacked any leadership whatsoever.  

 

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not married to being right about things.  So while I liked the deal.  i am open minded to being wrong.  So far 28 million for Wentz doesn't look to be a sharp move.  But there is plenty of time for the script to play out and turn around, will see.

I gave the Wentz thing about 60% chance of working out.  I liked the trade only insofar as it was the best of all the options.  Which I still think is true.  I would still prefer to have Wentz than forcing a draft pick to play early from this draft, or have Bridgewater, Mariota, Trubisky. Wilson was plan one, that failed.  Wentz was the best of the backup plans.

 

I don't care about the $28m. If they wanted to work around that, they could have.  

 

The best part of the trade was that you could get out of it for a 2nd and a 3rd.  The 2nd is already spent.  Not having a 3rd next year would suck. And I get it could be 2 2nds.  But if they are 1-8, they have to bench Wentz and save that second.  No matter what.

 

What I didn't expect was a complete implosion of the OL.  I just didn't see that coming.  I bought into Masko could make it work.  That might have been the complete undoing of the entire season.  

[skinsmania123]

15 minutes ago, BleedBNG said:

Okay, here's the dilemma... we can't have another year with Wentz. I know the O sucks but so does Wentz. We can't have another year with RR either. We need to put in Howell to prep for next year. I know, I know you don't do that because it's not how it's done. I don't care. What's the use in wasting our time without Howell if Wentz won't be here next year? I'm not saying Howell will get us anymore wins, but why have him ready for next year without any experience? Right now we're just wasting our time watching a crummy offense with a QB who when he finally escapes out of the pocket ends up throwing INT's.

Because Howell would get killed behind this O line. That is not how you bring along a rookie, IMO and give him experience that would be beneficial to his development.  I think Wentz has played okay to well with a pocket. He has no time to throw and when he does, because he is rattled, because he can't get into a rhythm, he is throwing too high or too low. I think they have to fix the O line problem first.