Game Day Thread - Commanders 'n Chiefs (No Politics In The Stadium Edition)

[@DCGoldPants]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

You invest four firsts in a DL you shouldn't have to resort to blitzing so often. 

 

But our back end coverage is so bad it kinda forces it.

Holcomb might win the Jon Bostic award for being in the picture after the other offense makes a 1st down or big play this year. 

[Captain Wiggles]

47 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Typo on my end, Ron.  I got no idea how good Wilks is or not.  I recall Norman loved him.    Right now he's as assistant for a lower tier college team, not even their coordinator. 

 

Carolina Panthers have been bad but lower tier college team.... Ouch. 🤭

 

Wilks stunk in Arizona but I see Ron bringing in someone he's worked with before if/when he fires Del Rio. No clue who it might be. Unfortunately for us it won't be Sean McDermott. 

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@Skinsinparadise that comment about blitzing wasn't really directed at you, but I'm glad you broke that down (yet again for us) to help hit home the reality of what's wrong with Del Rio is looking unfixable because it's him specifically.

 

At one point yes I wanted a more exotic blitzing defense, then surrendered when Ron double-downed in Dline with the Chase Young pick, the majority of the pressure was designed to come from dline and make gaining every yard a war of attrition with the back 7 until something stupid happened, like a turnover or a sack.

 

The players have to be in the right position and not so obvious what they're doing if that's the plan, which has worked in other places so can work here.  It has to work here because Ron is not going to do something differently no matter who the coordinator is, the next DC will be one that also agrees with him and that philosophy.

 

But these secondary communication issues, the truth that it does seem easy to call out what we are doing on opening drives...there's only so much the players can do about that.

 

I'm not ready to buy Curl has regressed so badly versus being put in bad spots over and over again, Fuller and Jackson have the talent to be better then what we've seen.  I can buy the derth of linebacker talent (and importantly speed) having a big impact, but what's going on with our secondary screams coaching problems.  At best they are underachieving and not on the same page.

 

Ron probably fired the dline coach because Del Rio wouldn't, they aren't the 85 Bears talent wise, but they shouldn't be 31st in 3rd Conversion rate on defense.

 

I haven't spent time going though Del Rio's blitzes last season but i did the season before.  The season before most of his blitzes seemed Double A gap or fire zone -- mostly with the MLBs pass rushing.  The problem I saw is their MLBs weren't really IMO good blitzers yet that's what they majored in.   They do the occasion CB blitz.   I am far from an expert on this stuff but to my layman's eye, they don't disguise their blitzes well, you see them coming IMO.

 

But clearly, the defenses problems run deeper than that.  Offenses seems to feel that they can carve this defense apart on third and long.  I know teams went heavy extra protection against this defense when Chase was still in the lineup and that seemed to work -- as long as the QB had time they can find the seam in the zone or whatever.  Feels like you can play design against this defense -- i am guessing the reason for that is the defenders are baited on a fairly regular basis with certain patterns.

 

Ironically that thought brings me back to Haz-Jay.  I recall the play Cincy schemed up when Jay was in Cincy and Haz was the coordinator here. The play in 2012 where their receiver threw a long TD at the start of the game.  Jay explained that they thought they could do it against Washington because he noticed while watching their defense that a certain formation from opposing offenses presented the same defensive reaction everytime -- if I recall it baited the safeties to come underneath.  And that would set up the big play. 

 

So I am guessing with Del Rio, his defense can be picked apart like that to some extent.   It's not that I am putting it all on him.  But I do think when an offense can on a regular basis carve a defense on third and long -- and ditto march down the field and score on the first drive -- it feels like Del Rio's patterns aren't hard to dissect.  And the fact that Jay flat out said they are easiy to dissect convinces me he's part of the problem if it doesn't get fixed. 

14 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said:

 

Carolina Panthers have been bad but lower tier college team.... Ouch. 🤭

 

Wilks stunk in Arizona but I see Ron bringing in someone he's worked with before if/when he fires Del Rio. No clue who it might be. Unfortunately for us it won't be Sean McDermott. 

 

My bad I misread his wikipedia page.  As I said, I don't know about Wilks one way or another, I haven't been paying attention. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

I recall some here wanted Gregg gone.  

 

 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Good lord, SIP. I didn’t need to see that stat right before dinner. I wanna quit this team so bad.

 

@Jumboneeds to start a “Creative Ways to Get a Lifetime Ban” thread. I might be interested in reading it. 😆

Edited August 21, 2022 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Rex Tomb]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I recall some here wanted Gregg gone.  

I was a huge Gregg fan back in the day. I actually wanted him to be our head coach after Gibbs left.  Hindsight being 20/20 I guess that would have been a big mistake.

[RWJ]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Typo on my end, Ron.  I got no idea how good Wilks is or not.  I recall Norman loved him.    Right now he's as assistant for a lower tier college team, not even their coordinator. 

He's with the Carolina Panther right now as their DEFENSIVE PASS GAME COORDINATOR/SECONDARY

[kingdaddy]

Someone in our defensive coaches meeting has to step up and challenge JDR.....probably needs to be the d-backs coach or someone else who's played in the league?

He's killing us.

[RWJ]

34 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Someone in our defensive coaches meeting has to step up and challenge JDR.....probably needs to be the d-backs coach or someone else who's played in the league?

He's killing us.

Our DB coach, Harris is right there with JDR.  Give me Wilks if RR was bold enough to make the move and bring him in as our new DC.  

[Jericho]

8 hours ago, RWJ said:

@Skinsinparadise Do you think that RR replaces JDR this year?  I hope so, personally. You?  Do you think he does it though?  If not Wilks, who would be a good candidate.  Wilks is there for the taking.  He's only a DB coach and his DBs are playing lights out right now.  He was there with RR in Carolina.  Ony concern he may be up for consideration for a HC or DC job next year so if RR wants him, he's going to need to make a move soon.  The coaches RR has here are basically from Carolina anyway.  I don't think it's too late to make a change and try for Wilks if he wants to become DC for RR.  

 

What do you mean by soon? The earliest you could possibly get Wilks is next off-season unless Carolina has magically lets him go, which they aren't doing unless everyone gets fired. It's not Carolina is going to let him interview for another job in the middle of the season.

[RWJ]

17 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

What do you mean by soon? The earliest you could possibly get Wilks is next off-season unless Carolina has magically lets him go, which they aren't doing unless everyone gets fired. It's not Carolina is going to let him interview for another job in the middle of the season.

We are still in preseason but it pretty much over with.  They may be able to get Wilks but more than likely yes, next year we move on from JDR.  No other person on this team is qualified right now, IMO. 

[Conn]

Yeah I’m almost positive in-season poaching of coaches, even if it’s a clear promotion and title upgrade, can’t happen. We’ll have to promote from within or wait till the offseason. 

[HigSkin]

If the defense does look really bad after a few games, I'd bring in Vic Vangio as a consultant to start hanging around the team early as a possible JDR replacement.

 

This is an earlier in the year prediction.

 

https://predominantlyorange.com/2021/12/30/denver-broncos-four-landing-spots-vic-fangio/3/

 

2022 Landing Spots for Vic Fangio

3. Washington Football Team, Defensive coordinator

After winning the NFC East in 2020, many across the league had high hopes for the Washington Football Team going into 2021. The team signed Ryan Fitzpatrick, but he went down very early in the season with a hip injury, leaving Taylor Heinicke to man the ship.

 

The second year leap from the Football Team has not occurred, and one would wonder if some coaches would be on the way out.

They boasted a top-three defense last year.  Their defensive coordinator, Jack Del Rio, has seen his unit severely regress in 2021, to one of the league’s worst units.

 

Since year two of the Ron Rivera era does not seem to be working, he may be forced to make some changes to his coaching staff.  Parting ways with Del Rio and hiring Fangio makes a lot of sense, as the Football Team would be in a much better position with their defense with Fangio running the show.

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

No thanks to Fangio. He's another dinosaur. We need a bright young up and comer.

[HigSkin]

16 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

No thanks to Fangio. He's another dinosaur. We need a bright young up and comer.

 

https://theathletic.com/3311028/2022/05/24/vic-fangio-defense-analysis/

 

Vic Fangio, the most influential DC in modern NFL: A deep dive into his system

In an interview with ESPN prior to the 2019 season, Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan and Matt LaFleur were all asked which coach’s defense is the most difficult to read and attack. All three highly successful play callers answered: Vic Fangio, the defensive coordinator of the Bears from 2015-18, and first-year coach with the Broncos in 2019.

[The Sisko]

18 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

At this point I'm convinced Ron is more likely to retire for "health related reasons" then being fired, he's trying to do too much already and jus had cancer two years ago.

[sebestian]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

If the defense does look really bad after a few games, I'd bring in Vic Vangio as a consultant to start hanging around the team early as a possible JDR replacement.

 

This is an earlier in the year prediction.

 

https://predominantlyorange.com/2021/12/30/denver-broncos-four-landing-spots-vic-fangio/3/

 

2022 Landing Spots for Vic Fangio

3. Washington Football Team, Defensive coordinator

After winning the NFC East in 2020, many across the league had high hopes for the Washington Football Team going into 2021. The team signed Ryan Fitzpatrick, but he went down very early in the season with a hip injury, leaving Taylor Heinicke to man the ship.

 

The second year leap from the Football Team has not occurred, and one would wonder if some coaches would be on the way out.

They boasted a top-three defense last year.  Their defensive coordinator, Jack Del Rio, has seen his unit severely regress in 2021, to one of the league’s worst units.

 

Since year two of the Ron Rivera era does not seem to be working, he may be forced to make some changes to his coaching staff.  Parting ways with Del Rio and hiring Fangio makes a lot of sense, as the Football Team would be in a much better position with their defense with Fangio running the show.

 

 

 

Please let this happen, it wont but one can dream.

[formerly4skins]

11 hours ago, RWJ said:

No other person on this team is qualified right now, IMO. 

 

If JDR gets ****-canned in-season I'd prefer to just see RR take the reigns on calling the D and see how that plays out...then worry about a permanent replacement at D coordinator next off-season. 

 

Though, if the team is playing bad enough to fire 'ol Dust-up Jack...RRs seat is probably getting pretty hot too. 

[sebestian]

2 minutes ago, formerly4skins said:

 

If JDR gets ****-canned in-season I'd prefer to just see RR take the reigns on calling the D and see how that plays out...then worry about a permanent replacement at D coordinator next off-season. 

 

Though, if the team is playing bad enough to fire 'ol Dust-up Jack...RRs seat is probably getting pretty hot too. 

 

As optimistic as I am, i think this will both be their last years and we start again.  How much more can we endure............

[Voice_of_Reason]

Ok, I managed to watch the game on YouTube, but it was the Chief's announcers.  Which I was happy with because I didn't have to hear Doc Walker, which would have driven me to drink.  Trent Green was the color guy and I was jealous of that.  

 

Some thoughts, I'm going to limit this to the starting units:

Offense:

- Robinson looks like a pro NFL running back.  He hits the holes hard and fast, and gets north/south quickly.  Also was good in pass coverage. The more I watched, the more I liked him.  I think he's going to be really good as the starting RB, I just hope they don't fall in love with the 4 or 5 yard run, because that will mean an average offense.  

- On Gibson's first carry, it was a little outside-zone run, but he kept going sideways and never put his foot in the ground and headed up-field.  It is tough to tell based on camera angle, but I think there was a hole, or at least a crease, where he could have gotten up-field, and at least avoided a loss. Comparing Gibson's runs with Robinson's, you can tell one guy is better than the other at running the ball.  This debate is over.  

- On the first drive, the the third down  play to Samuel, that's a tough catch.  The defender had his hands in there.  I think Wentz needs to get that ball 3 feet further out, and maybe Samuel can run under it.  It looked like he had a step. I like that they didn't throw directly at the sticks, though.  Make the defense defend more of the field  

- On the second drive, Samuel has to catch the 3rd down.  Ball was on his hands.  

- Overall Wentz thoughts: I thought he was fine.  I think there was at least one drop, maybe two, which hurt them.  He made some really good, quick and accurate throws.  He hit some throws in the "medium" range, but nothing terribly deep.  I don't think they are going for a lot of deep shots in preseason, it might be the plan.  I think they will go down the field more in the regular season.  

- Cosmi can't false start on 3rd and 5. Worst play of the entire first team offense.   

- The sack Wentz took wasn't good.  He probably should have just thrown the ball away.  I don't know what they were trying to do on that play, but 3rd and 10 is not where you want to be under any circumstance, it's always tough.  Routes take a little longer to develop, etc.  I'm not sure I love the playcall there (though I'm not going to fuss about playcalling in preseason) but in the regular season, I think that's a spot where you try and get the ball out of your QBs hands quickly and see if your playmaker can make a play.  Or you put the QB on the move, or something that will help buy time.  In preseason, eh, who cares.  I hope they don't do the same thing in the regular season.  

 

Defense:

I have heard a lot about how horrific the defense was.  I will say, Mahomes is SO good at EVERYTHING, it makes everything the defense does so hard.  He was outstanding at quick-game, he can evade and buy time, he's very accurate, it's like playing a cyborg.  

** One thing I love about the Chief's offense: they push the ball down the field on every series of downs.  They miss on a bunch of them.  But it doesn't matter.  Because they hit on a bunch of them also.  By being aggressive, they give themselves a bigger margin for error.  Part of that is Mahomes, but it's always been a staple of the Andy Reid offense.  Mahomes missed a few throws, was a little inaccurate here and there, but they basically play the law of averages, and keep giving him opportunities, and he hits his share, which makes the offense explosive.  And it makes playing defense against them murderously difficult.  

- The run defense wasn't bad early in the game. This is a positive sign.  

- The first third down they converted was an outstanding play by Mahomes, but there was no pressure.  They brought 4, and Mahomes had all day.  Finally, the receiver slipped out of protection, and Mahomes wrist-flipped him the ball.  The big issue there is they couldn't get pressure.  But, even still, there are probably 4 other QBs in the league who make that play.  

- The penalty on WJIII for defensive pass interference on 3rd and 10 was bogus.  Total crap call.  Chiefs were called for an offensive hold, but it was offsetting because of the PI call.  WJIII got his body in position to make a play and didn't touch the receiver.  That would have stopped the first drive.  Even the chief's commentators said "I didn't see anything there, but it was a good call for the chiefs."  (I don't complain about officiating, mistakes go both ways, but that was kindof textbook by WJIII on a third down, which has been the achilleas heel of the defense, and should have been a stop, so I note it.  

- On the ensuing 3rd down, JDR blitzed St. Juste from WAY outside, which put Curl in a 1:1 situation with a receiver, who just ran buy him, and Mahomes hit him.  Shrug.  If you're going to blitz Mahomes, I think you need to do it right up the middle somehow.  If you come off the edge, you're going to be late.  Bad defensive call in my opinion.  

 

 

Overall, I think if this was a regular season game, the Chiefs would win, and they are the better team.  Which I think we knew coming in.  I think they are going to have a top 3 offense again this year, and the Commander's defense is not going to be the last one to get roasted by them.  They look more focused than last year.  

 

I think the defense did some things well.  The problem is if you are playing an offense like the chiefs, you can't do some things well.  You have to do everything well, and that still might not be enough.  I actually saw a few things on the defensive side of the ball I thought were pretty good.  The problem is, when you're playing a cyborg, it accentuates the problems.

 

Offensively, I think they will be fine.  I think, assuming they have a TE on the field, they are going to have a better offense than people realize.  I think that also might help the defense a little bit.  I think they need to assume the offense has to get to 27-30 points per game.  Which is a lot.  But I think they need to go in with that attitude, and they need to be aggressive.  When they get there, they will be ok.  When they don't, they won't.  But if they are going to win games this year, it's going to be because they scored a lot of points, not because they win games 17-15 like in the winning streak last year.  

 

As an aside, I do wonder what a healthy, mentally correct, hungry Chase Young could do for this defense.  Having a guy on the field who has the ability to force an opposing offenses hand a bit is a huge help.  They have that guy in Jon Allen on the interior.  I don't think Sweat is that guy.  Young has to be that guy.  

[FootballZombie]

27 minutes ago, formerly4skins said:

If JDR gets ****-canned in-season I'd prefer to just see RR take the reigns on calling the D and see how that plays out...then worry about a permanent replacement at D coordinator next off-season. 

 

Though, if the team is playing bad enough to fire 'ol Dust-up Jack...RRs seat is probably getting pretty hot too. 

 

Its hard to imagine being able to hire a better coach than Ron given a horrific season and his firing.

 

Its even harder to imagine getting any D coordinator of note if the D is bad enough to get Del Rio fired. What prominent D-cord is signing up to be w/ a coach on a white hot seat?

 

Fangio is gonna look at this situation and pass.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

You invest four firsts in a DL you shouldn't have to resort to blitzing so often. 

 

But our back end coverage is so bad it kinda forces it.

I actually think the back-end coverage wasn't too bad against the Chiefs.  The problem really was more up-front.  And, quite honestly, playing that offense, almost every secondary is going to look bad.

 

I thought WJIII and Fuller both looked pretty good.  Curl got matched up on a faster receiver during a blitz, and lost.  But I'm not sure you should expect him to win in that situation, that's asking a lot.  I put that on scheme.

 

After watching the game, I thought our DL played a D- game overall.  I didn't really notice the LBs, which could be either a good or bad thing.  The plays the Chiefs made, a number of them were just "special" plays by Mahomes.  In some cases, Reid (or whoever is scheming the offense) got a good matchup.  

 

I'm worried about the DL and worried about the coordinator.  Interestingly, I am less worried about the LBs and secondary.  Unless there are significant injuries, I think Fuller, Curl, McCain, WJIII and St. Juste will be fine.  

 

I think Young needs to come back healthy and dominant.  If that doesn't happen, it's going to be a very tough year for the defense.  

 

And I think they might need to look into a new DC.  I don't think JDR is Mike Nolan bad.  But the Dallas defense was HISTORICALLY BAD under Nolan, and with mostly the same pieces (granted, they did draft a defensive rookie of the year) it was MUCH MUCH MUCH better under Quinn.  

 

I didn't expect JDR to flame out as a DC here.  I actually expected him to do pretty well.  But it's not working.

 

As an aside, if the DL doesn't produce this year, I think you start dismantling it.  Trade Sweat, let Payne leave in FA.  Keep Jon Allen and Young, and do kidnof a reboot.  They invested too much for it to not be productive.  But you can't keep bringing the same guys back and have it be unproductive.  

12 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Fangio is gonna look at this situation and pass.

Unless the offense is really good, and he sees potential with the defensive pieces and things he can turn it around quickly.  

 

I think Ron could get a good DC if he wanted to change.  He might end up with somebody else he has worked with, they might promote somebody, or they might go the veteran route.  

 

I'm hoping the defense plays well enough that this isn't a huge issue during the season.  We'll see.  

[Captain Wiggles]

50 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Its hard to imagine being able to hire a better coach than Ron given a horrific season and his firing.

 

Panthers replaced him with Matt Rhule. 😬

 

His previous coaching jobs were HC of Baylor n Temple. Tepper seems like a young Snyder almost but I still think carolina would be a more attractive situation than Washington. If Ron goes this year I can only imagine the kinda retreads n never will bes that Snyder has on his ****ty replacements list. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, sebestian said:

 

As optimistic as I am, i think this will both be their last years and we start again.  How much more can we endure............

It's possible.  But that hasn't been Snyder's history in over a decade.  The only 2 coaches he hired which he fired before 4 years were Marty and Zorn.

 

Spurrier quit.  TERRIBLE hire, but Snyder actually wanted him back.  (Should he have wanted him back? Probably not.  But he didn't fire Spurrier.)

Gibbs retired (again).  

Shanahan got 4 years

Jay coached into his 6th year.

Vinny got a decade

Bruce got a decade

 

Marty only got one year, and I think the football Gods are still punishing us for that.  

 

Zorn was a horrible hire.  He probably should have been fired after his first year, but he got two, and then was fired.  And that was the right move.  

 

Snyder's worst move as owner (minus any toxic culture and direct sexual harassment stuff) was firing Marty.  Maybe his best move as owner was hiring Marty, though I think you'd have to say his best move was hiring Gibbs back.  

 

I have no idea what is going to happen, but I don't think Ron gets fired after the season barring a complete and total 3-14 type meltdown where Ron loses the team entirely.  Even if they go 7-10, that's good enough.

 

Jay went 4-12, 9-7, 8-7-1 (then got extended), 7-9, 7-9 before starting 0-4 and getting fired.  That's not exactly a sparkling record and he lasted into his 6th year. 

 

So, if Ron floats around .500 again, I think he's back.  7-10, 8-9, 9-8, 10-7, anywhere in there, I think it's a lock he's coming back.

 

6-11, 5-12?  I think he still comes back, but I think there are significant changes to the coaching staff and FO.

 

4-13 or worse, he might not be coming back.  Who knows who we could get. As @Skinsinparadise has said, and I have agreed with, with all the Dan stuff swirling, his options are going to be even more limited now than they have been in the past.  He has been able to pull a rabbit out of a hat with coaches a number of times:  Marty, Gibbs, Shanahan were all really well respected coaches.  Even Spurrier was a novel idea at the beginning.  

 

But he also had Zorn and Jay.  Zorn wasn't qualified.  Jay probably would have gotten a job somewhere at some point.  But he was an extremely uninspiring hire from the get-go.  

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said:

 

Panthers replaced him with Matt Rhule. 😬

 

His previous coaching jobs were HC of Baylor n Temple. Tepper seems like a young Snyder almost but I still think carolina would be a more attractive situation than Washington. If Ron goes this year I can only imagine the kinda retreads n never will bes that Snyder has on his ****ty replacements list. 

 

I'd guess veteran coaches who aren't getting head coaching jobs otherwise, guys like Herman Edwards, Jason Garrett, someone like that.