Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Wildbunny]

25 minutes ago, China said:

Wagers?  Polonium tea?  Defenestration?  Bullet to the back of the skull?  Car accident?

All at once!

[China]

Ukraine Fires Officials Amid Corruption Scandal, as Allies Watch Closely

 

Several top Ukrainian officials were fired on Tuesday amid a ballooning corruption scandal, in the biggest upheaval in President Volodymyr Zelensky’s government since Russia’s invasion began 11 months ago.

 

Ukraine’s cabinet ministry, which announced the firings, provided no reasons for them, but they followed a number of allegations of government corruption — including reports that Ukraine’s military had agreed to pay inflated prices for food meant for its troops — and vows by Mr. Zelensky to root it out.

 

A deputy defense minister was among those removed from their posts on Tuesday, as was a deputy prosecutor general who caused a furor by taking a wartime vacation to Spain with his family. A senior official in Mr. Zelensky’s office tendered his resignation after coming under withering criticism for zipping around in an SUV that General Motors had donated for humanitarian missions.

 

Over the weekend, a Ukrainian newspaper reported that the Ministry of Defense had purchased food at inflated prices, including eggs at three times their cost. Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov called the allegations “absolute nonsense” and the product of “distorted information.”

 

But on Tuesday, Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense said that Viacheslav Shapovalov, a deputy minister, had “asked to be fired” following the reports. 

 

Also among those dismissed on Tuesday were five governors from regions that have at various points seen intense fighting, including Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. The governor of Kyiv was also dismissed but then reassigned to a position within the presidential administration.

 

Reasons for the recent dismissals, those that are known, vary. The prosecutor general’s office announced Tuesday that it had fired a deputy after an outcry erupted over his decision to take a wartime vacation to Spain.

 

The shake-up began over the weekend, when Ukraine’s National Anti-Corruption Bureau detained a deputy infrastructure minister who it said was caught receiving a $400,000 bribe from a company seeking a government contract to provide generators and other equipment.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[FootballZombie]

Biden announces US will send Abrams tanks to Ukraine, signaling new phase of war

 

https://news.yahoo.com/germany-approves-leopard-2-tanks-123529343.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

 

 

 

 

31 M1 Abrams tanks on the way. That'll put the hurt on some stuff.

[PleaseBlitz]

8 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

31 M1 Abrams tanks on the way. That'll put the hurt on some stuff.

 

Per WaPo:

 

Quote

The U.S. tanks — to be purchased from manufacturers rather than transferred from existing American military stockpiles — will not arrive for months, if not years. Administration officials have emphasized that the M1s are part of long-range planning for Ukraine’s armed forces rather than weapons that will be put to immediate use.

 

But also:

 

Quote

The plan is to transfer the Leopards, currently spread across Europe, in time for Ukraine to defend against an anticipated Russian offensive in the spring and to launch its own counteroffensive.

 

In Europe, the goal is to quickly assemble two Leopard tank battalions — equivalent to at least 70 tanks. As a first step, Germany will provide a company of 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks from its army’s stocks, the government in Berlin said in a statement. European allies will also provide tanks with German approval.

 

Germany’s Ministry of Defense said it aims for the tanks to be on the battlefield by the end of March. That leaves a tight window for logistics and training — which is expected to begin within days.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/01/25/germany-leopard-tanks-abrams-ukraine/

[FootballZombie]

52 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Per WaPo:

 

Its not surprising that it will take a chunk of time. I figure just straight sending Abrams would cause more harm then good. Peeps gotta be trained on how to run the things otherwise they are just nice looking paperweights.

 

It will probably take a few months to get a few squads trained up to run the things, kinda like some of the other high-end stuff we sent over.

[PleaseBlitz]

23 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Its not surprising that it will take a chunk of time. I figure just straight sending Abrams would cause more harm then good. Peeps gotta be trained on how to run the things otherwise they are just nice looking paperweights.

 

It will probably take a few months to get a few squads trained up to run the things, kinda like some of the other high-end stuff we sent over.

 

I think the main delay isn't training people on how to drive them and shoot at stuff, I think it's training people on how to repair them and keep them functional/effective.  

 

End of the day, Ukraine wanted Leopards not because they are more effective tanks, but because they use the same kind of fuel other Ukraine equipment uses, they are easier to maintain/fix, and because there are already hundreds of them in Europe.  The US, I think, had to agree to send Abrams as a show of good faith to Germany to get them off the fence. So the US will send Abrams, but the important near-term thing is that a whole bunch of Leopards will be in theatre by this spring. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Glad to see NATO wasn’t fuh-fuh-fuh Foolin’ about sending in those Leppards.

[Wildbunny]

2 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

It will probably take a few months to get a few squads trained up to run the things, kinda like some of the other high-end stuff we sent over.

That's an argument I read often on many stuff we did send to Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't see that big of a deal. Using a tank isn't that hard. Maintaining and fixing it is probably harder. But you could still have use of tanks or whatever weapons you want, correctly, without spending months training to it and have maintening teams training to repair stuff if they make it out of a fight in one piece.

 

A week or two of intense training should be enough for any military crew to properly operate a tank.

When I was a conscript in the french army, it didn't take our team months to use and maintain our tank. Granted that was some 20 years ago, wasn't that hard, and some of my teammates weren't the brightests guys in the world.

 

I believe that's largely exagerated.

[tshile]

After watching Russia invade ukrain I don’t know how anyone could downplay the importance of training on how to use and maintain/repair equipment. 
 

the entire invasion has been a text book comedy act on the importance of those things. 
 

and on making sure your people understand what they’re actually doing. 

[Gurgeh]

43 minutes ago, tshile said:

After watching Russia invade ukrain I don’t know how anyone could downplay the importance of training on how to use and maintain/repair equipment. 
 

the entire invasion has been a text book comedy act on the importance of those things. 
 

and on making sure your people understand what they’re actually doing. 

 

It's also been a wake-up call for some NATO countries. Germany let it's military maintenance and procurement programs lapse to the point where it could barely field a single fully-equipped brigade. Now it's allocated over $100 billion on top of it's normal military budget just to bring things back up to scratch. Spain discovered that it's own Leopard tanks were in an "“absolutely deplorable condition” when it bothered to check how many it might be able to send to Ukraine. NATO countries in general are probably rethinking how much artillery and MLRS ammo they should stock, in case they end up in a situation like Ukraine where AA missiles dominate and we're back to slugging it out on the ground.

[Pwyl]

A modern tank isn't a Fiat.  No way you're getting a crew of 4 battle ready in it in 2 weeks. That's ridiculous. 

[China]

2 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

That's an argument I read often on many stuff we did send to Ukraine.

Honestly, I don't see that big of a deal. Using a tank isn't that hard. Maintaining and fixing it is probably harder. But you could still have use of tanks or whatever weapons you want, correctly, without spending months training to it and have maintening teams training to repair stuff if they make it out of a fight in one piece.

 

A week or two of intense training should be enough for any military crew to properly operate a tank.

When I was a conscript in the french army, it didn't take our team months to use and maintain our tank. Granted that was some 20 years ago, wasn't that hard, and some of my teammates weren't the brightests guys in the world.

 

I believe that's largely exagerated.

 

It's not just learning to operate it, but also the maintenance, repair and logistical support training.  I've read it will take months to have them delivered and the Ukranians trained.  As @Pwyl said, no way it can be done in a couple of weeks.

[LD0506]

Agreed, there is a ton of work that has to happen to make tank go boom, but at the same time I have been roundly impressed by the Ukrainian ingenuity, perseverance and joie de vivre and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt about putting that hardware to good use.

[tshile]

I don’t know **** about military operations. Never was in the military. 
 

have tons of family friends and worked with people that were though. And they all have basically the same thing to say about our military - that the logistics involved in supporting the awesome firepower we have are insane 

 

🤷‍♂️ 

[China]

Soldiers from 101st Airborne, 10th Mountain divisions expected to deploy to Romania

 

Army units are gearing up for a potential deployment to Europe, where they are expected to be tasked with deterring Russian aggression in the Black Sea region.

 

Elements from the 101st Airborne Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team and the 10th Mountain Division headquarters are preparing for the mission, the Army said in a statement Saturday.

 

“Preparation for this potential deployment provides flexibility to reassess conditions and respond to a dynamic security environment,” the Army statement said.

 

The Army said the move doesn’t change force levels, but rather aims to ensure forces are positioned to provide “a robust deterrent and defensive posture alongside our Allies across the European continent.”

 

The 101st units were ordered to Romania in June and operate mostly out of Mihail Kogalniceanu Air Base, which serves as a hub for the Army in the Black Sea region.

 

During their time in Romania and other locations around Europe, 101st soldiers have been tasked with monitoring events in Ukraine for potential spillover into allied countries, while incorporating lessons from the war into how American ground forces train.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

I don’t know **** about military operations. Never was in the military. 
 

have tons of family friends and worked with people that were though. And they all have basically the same thing to say about our military - that the logistics involved in supporting the awesome firepower we have are insane 

 

🤷‍♂️ 

 

I've been reading all this and knowing I should take the time to write out a decent explanation for everyone. 

 

But, ****, I'm lazy.

[Redskins Reparations]

Now that Ukraine has an agreement in place to receive armor, they will need to establish air superiority over the battle space and will soon request modern air fighters.

[FootballZombie]

Based off what I looked up the course we put our US soldiers thru to be an M1 Armor crew member is 22 weeks. There is a ton to learn.

[Wildbunny]

2 hours ago, Redskins Reparations said:

Now that Ukraine has an agreement in place to receive armor, they will need to establish air superiority over the battle space and will soon request modern air fighters.

Netherlands are already considering giving F-16 from some reports, and didn't wait for Zelensky to ask for it.

 

5 hours ago, China said:

 

It's not just learning to operate it, but also the maintenance, repair and logistical support training.  I've read it will take months to have them delivered and the Ukranians trained.  As @Pwyl said, no way it can be done in a couple of weeks.

I wasn't discussing maintenance, just the operative part of it.

But I may have explained myself wrong.

[LD0506]

12 hours ago, tshile said:

I don’t know **** about military operations. Never was in the military. 
 

have tons of family friends and worked with people that were though. And they all have basically the same thing to say about our military - that the logistics involved in supporting the awesome firepower we have are insane 

 

🤷‍♂️ 

 

Because that is how WE do it. The US builds these titanic complex machines out of planes and guns and artillery and tanks and satellites and anything else we can think of and then loose that golem on an enemy. It's a luxury of wealth and it has served us well many times. The Ukrainians are not blessed with all that and have been forced to be more adept with whatever they have at hand. Necessity is the mother of invention and rest assured, it's a mother. Our military just cannot conceive of not getting every piece in place, we have trained in this since WWII. This is not a question of the limits of materiel, it is about the limits of perception and imagination. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

29 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

 

Because that is how WE do it. The US builds these titanic complex machines out of planes and guns and artillery and tanks and satellites and anything else we can think of and then loose that golem on an enemy. It's a luxury of wealth and it has served us well many times. The Ukrainians are not blessed with all that and have been forced to be more adept with whatever they have at hand. Necessity is the mother of invention and rest assured, it's a mother. Our military just cannot conceive of not getting every piece in place, we have trained in this since WWII. This is not a question of the limits of materiel, it is about the limits of perception and imagination. 

 

I'm curious what you are basing this on?  Experience,  research,  etc?  Because, having actually lived this world, I think this is inaccurate.  We do, and I have countless times, sent somewhere with as much of what we needed that we could get our hands on and then told to figure out the rest.  And we have different criteria on how "usable" a piece of equipment depending on our environment.  

 

They used to teach a school for some of us called "Battle damage repair school" and it was essentially a school on how to do shady ass repairs just to make something usable for the time being.

[LD0506]

38 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I'm curious what you are basing this on?  Experience,  research,  etc?  Because, having actually lived this world, I think this is inaccurate.  We do, and I have countless times, sent somewhere with as much of what we needed that we could get our hands on and then told to figure out the rest.  And we have different criteria on how "usable" a piece of equipment depending on our environment.  

 

They used to teach a school for some of us called "Battle damage repair school" and it was essentially a school on how to do shady ass repairs just to make something usable for the time being.

 

I was hoping you'd chime in

 

And that is totally the truth in the real world, "shut up and make it work". I was addressing more the mindset of the top brass, those medal heavy old guys in the Pentagon that still seem to want to tell the Ukrainians how to run things. Those esoteric "battle doctrine/combined arms" are fine on their strategic level but boots on the ground know that **** ain't the reality. I'll take the demerit for not making a clearer distinction. I have undiluted respect for the mid-level command that has to not only deal with what's actually going on but also have to assure the upper echelon that everything's fine. Taking fire from both sides at times.

 

The advisers we have had working with the Ukrainians have been wildly impressed with their ability to pick things up quickly, adapt to different systems and techniques and improvise on the fly. They have to be the absolute worst choice for the Russians to pick this fight with. And yet we've still been hearing talking heads going on about "Well it takes a lot of training and a lot of infrastructure and hell, do you understand that those Abrams use a lot of fuel?" in what strikes me as a rather condescending manner. 

 

I think you'd agree that when the SHTF a lot of the bureaucratic bull**** goes out the window, doesn't stop bureaucrats from generating more to justify their next promotion. 

 

 

[The Sisko]

1 hour ago, LD0506 said:

 

Because that is how WE do it. The US builds these titanic complex machines out of planes and guns and artillery and tanks and satellites and anything else we can think of and then loose that golem on an enemy. It's a luxury of wealth and it has served us well many times. The Ukrainians are not blessed with all that and have been forced to be more adept with whatever they have at hand. Necessity is the mother of invention and rest assured, it's a mother. Our military just cannot conceive of not getting every piece in place, we have trained in this since WWII. This is not a question of the limits of materiel, it is about the limits of perception and imagination. 

There's some truth to this. However, modern warfare, hell, modern anything nowadays is complex and requires a lot of logistics. The Russians are doing what you describe and it's not working out for them. They'd have been pushed off the battlefield long ago if it weren't for their sheer numerical superiority and willingness to throw away the lives of countless soldiers. Yes, the Ukrainians are smart, creative, and highly motivated fighters, but all the equipment they're using has to come from somewhere. Ditto for the spare parts, food, ammo, etc. All of that requires a LOT of logistics and technical knowledge to support, even more so when you're using multiple weapon systems cobbled together from the world's inventories. I initially thought the line about the M1s being too complex and logistically intensive was BS but after hearing a number of people who have actually worked on them talk about it, I changed my thinking. IMO if we're going to further tax them with another weapon system, there's more bang for the buck in giving them western combat aircraft.

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, The Sisko said:

There's some truth to this. However, modern warfare, hell, modern anything nowadays is complex and requires a lot of logistics.

Logistics has always been the main problem in every war since the beginning of humanity and wars.

I get the point of spare parts and everything, but if food is not on time on a daily basis for your soldiers, if you don't your infantry won't do ****.

 

Logistics is was bite Napoleon during is Russian campaign, or the 3rd Reich as well. They were running short of almost everything in the end and there was no way for them to counter that.

 

The main logistics to have is food for the infantry. Because for all your planes, boats, submarines, Himars, tanks and everything you can think of, in the end, you'll need soldiers to occupy the ground just to say "hello there!".

 

Still, we're about to have the highest end of modern armies fighting one that is using the oldest tactics of time: mass bodies send to the fight and don't give a **** about the casualties as long as they win. As unequipped and unarmed or untrained as the russians soldiers are, they still aren't revolting or retreating in any way. That's a deadly combination to face; people that aren't moving back and are largely outnumbering you. Ukraine cannot lose this war, but that's still not a given thing that they'll win in the end.

[tshile]

They’re not retreating or revolting?

 

seems counter to the news we have received over months. 
 

 

I feel like this has gone way off the rails. I think our military is capable of large logistical plans as well as in-and-out stuff and everything in between. 
 

The context that we were speaking to was supplying them with tanks, and one poster saying you just drive point and shoot and that training/maintenance etc was being oversold. 
 

I think that’s inaccurate. That was my point.