Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Wildbunny]

32 minutes ago, PokerPacker said:

I'm not sure anyone's been referring to Russia as the second best army in the world since Spring.

Sure, but everything we've seen since just tells us that this title was purely due to their nukes.

[skinfan2k]

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/07/1134878028/yevgeny-prigozhin-russia-election-interference-putin

 

if you didn't already know about russian interference that GOP keeps rejecting 

[DogofWar1]

6 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Sure, but everything we've seen since just tells us that this title was purely due to their nukes.

 

I mean, for the 90's and probably early-to-mid-2000's it was probably true.  10000 tanks ain't nothing to scoff at and they hadn't been rotting in storage in the open elements for 30 years.  And the soldiers who were trained under rigid disciplined Soviet doctrine were in their 30's and 40's not 60's and 70's.

 

22 years of kleptocracy will really hollow a country out.

[Larry]

21 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

22 years of kleptocracy will really hollow a country out.

signed, the US. 

[tshile]

8 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

I'm not sure anyone's been referring to Russia as the second best army in the world since Spring.

Even then I don’t know that they were second best. Maybe second largest. 
 

I get that Russia has shocked us quite a bit with just awful they are - but I don’t seem to really recall them being highly regarded by anyone. 
 

for starters - china was always considered a more formidable threat so they’d be #2 right there. 
 

[China]

Zelensky Sets Conditions for 'Genuine' Peace Talks With Russia

 

Speaking ahead of his address to a global climate summit in Egypt on Tuesday, Mr. Zelensky said late Monday: “Anyone who treats seriously the climate agenda should just as seriously treat the necessity of immediately stopping Russian aggression, resuming our territorial integrity and forcing Russia into genuine peace talks.”

 

Mr. Zelensky’s statement comes after the U.S., Ukraine’s key backer in its defense against Russia’s invasion, has urged Kyiv to publicly signal that it is open to talks with Moscow, to avoid alienating international opinion.

 

“One more time: restoration of territorial integrity, respect for the U.N. charter, compensation for all material losses caused by the war, punishment for every war criminal and guarantees that this does not happen again,” Mr. Zelensky said. “Those are completely understandable conditions.”

 

U.S. officials have said it is up to Ukraine to define the terms of any acceptable settlement. Many Western officials are skeptical that Russian President Vladimir Putin will be open soon to a settlement that involves Russian withdrawal from occupied regions of Ukraine—a key demand for Kyiv.

 

Since Mr. Putin said in late September that swaths of Ukraine’s east and south belonged to Russia, Kyiv has said it wouldn’t negotiate with Moscow until there is a different leader in the Kremlin. Mr. Putin’s insistence that Russia’s territorial demands are nonnegotiable, meanwhile, appears to leave little scope for talks at present.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[Gurgeh]

22 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

 

I mean, for the 90's and probably early-to-mid-2000's it was probably true.  10000 tanks ain't nothing to scoff at and they hadn't been rotting in storage in the open elements for 30 years.  And the soldiers who were trained under rigid disciplined Soviet doctrine were in their 30's and 40's not 60's and 70's.

 

22 years of kleptocracy will really hollow a country out.

 

Exactly. There wouldn't be much wrong with the Russian equipment if it had been maintained properly, which it generally hasn't. Everyone from the top down in the army has been pocketing money meant for maintenance. For example:

 

https://sites.tufts.edu/corruptarmsdeals/fraudulent-contracts-for-peter-the-great-cruiser-overhaul/

 

"In 2010, the Russian Ministry of Defense awarded a contract for the repair of the nuclear-powered guided missile cruiser Pyotr Veliky (“Peter the Great”) to the contractor CJSC Special Production and Technical Base Zvezdochka. [for $11.7 million]

 

"Investigations by military prosecutors revealed the deal to be not just corrupt, but fake from beginning to end. First of all, the company itself, Zvezdochka, turned out to be a shell company that was impersonating the real Zvezdochka ship repair yard. The fake Zvezdochka that won the contract and received the funds did not even have proper permits from the Russian state atomic energy corporation, Rosatom, to repair the nuclear reactor on the cruiser. The doppelganger shell company had, nonetheless, been winning contracts to “repair” the reactors of nuclear submarines for years, despite not having any suitable facilities for carrying out such work... A large proportion of fake-Zvezdochka’s employees were relatives of the company’s Director, and received large salaries and bonuses paid for by Russian state defense procurement orders, presumably for no actual work.

 

"The investigations by military prosecutors into the Pyotr Veliky scam became public in July 2011... In March 2016, fake-Zvezdochka’s director, Fedor Barashko, was convicted of embezzlement and tax evasion, and sentenced to eight and a half years imprisonment, and a fine... in spite of the large number of investigations and prosecutions carried out, the doppelganger company continued to win military contracts even after the scandal broke."

 

 

IIRC the Moskova, the ship that the Ukrainians sunk, had a similar refit scandal where a former captain signed off that its missiles had been maintained and refuelled, where in fact the only missiles that had been maintained were the ones the captain had ordered to be test fired to demonstrate the work had been carried out. He then split the contract money for the rest of the missiles with the shipyard. This came to light before the invasion, during an inspection.

 

[DogofWar1]

Lazerpig on youtube has a great video on the sinking of the Moskva and indeed, his view was basically it was a huge indictment of Russia's maintenance of their forces on the basis of a maintenance report that was released about the ship in the past couple months from Feb 10th.

 

 

Starts talking about the report around 12:30.

 

And this was the FLAGSHIP.

 

That being said, no this does not mean that their nukes don't work (someone is gonna say that).

[visionary]

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by visionary

[visionary]

Seeing a lot of talk of Russia moving everything out of Kherson and trying to cut off ways for Ukraine to follow them.
 

Also just saw this

 

[DogofWar1]

Yup withdrawing from the city.

 

That's a big one.  Was first major city they took and was that way for a while.  Still one of the few big cities they got.

 

It makes sense, they were slowly bleeding dry and risked losing tons of men and equipment there, it'll be interesting to see what they leave behind.

[DogofWar1]

Oh my gawd it is just like Downfall.

[China]

7 hours ago, visionary said:

Seeing a lot of talk of Russia moving everything out of Kherson and trying to cut off ways for Ukraine to follow them.
 

Also just saw this

 

 

Russia Orders Withdrawal From Kherson City, in Potential Blow to War Effort Give this article

 

Russia’s defense minister announced on television Wednesday that he was ordering the retreat of Moscow’s forces from the strategically important southern city of Kherson, in a potential blow to President Vladimir V. Putin’s war effort. But Ukraine officials expressed skepticism that the Russians were going to fully withdraw.

 

The statement by Sergei K. Shoigu, Russia’s defense minister, was made in a televised meeting with the military’s top brass, and it came after Gen. Sergei Surovikin, the commander for Russia’s forces in Ukraine, told Mr. Shoigu that the decision was “difficult” but that a withdrawal would “preserve lives of servicemen and combat readiness of forces.”

 

Standing in front of a lectern and pointing out troop movements on a map of Ukraine that was blurred, General Surovokin cited Ukraine’s relentless shelling and the difficulty of maintaining crossing points and the potential flooding of the area as the main reasons for the pullout.

 

“Under these conditions, the city of Kherson and nearby settlements cannot be supplied in a fully-fledged manner,” he said. He added, “After a thorough assessment of the current situation,” he added, he would take up defense along the eastern bank of the Dnipro River.

 

Mr. Shoigu responded, “Go ahead with the pullout of troops and take all measures to ensure safe transfer of troops, weapons and equipment to the other bank of the Dnipro River.”

 

Click on the link for the full article

[Gurgeh]

1 hour ago, China said:

 

... Standing in front of a lectern and pointing out troop movements on a map of Ukraine that was blurred, General Surovokin cited Ukraine’s relentless shelling and the difficulty of maintaining crossing points and the potential flooding of the area as the main reasons for the pullout.

 

 

I hope it doesn't happen, but I can definitely see the Russians blowing up the dam and flooding the city once they've pulled back. Both the Soviets and the Nazis did it in WW2, and thousands died in the aftermath - anywhere from 20,000 to 100,000.

 

From what little information there is, it seems the Ukrainian army broke through at Snihurivka, a town on the edge of the Inhulets river west of Kherson. The Russians have destroyed bridges across that river as they retreated, but there's not a lot between the Ukrainians and Kherson now. Although of course, crossing 30 miles of open terrain isn't exactly safe. If I was the Ukrainians, I would almost be reluctant to enter the city in force. There'd be house-to-house fighting, constant shelling and the destruction of buildings from the Russians on the other side of the Dniepr, and the risk of that dam upstream being blown up and wiping out any troops in the city.

[visionary]

Ahhh wrong thread.  My bad.

Edited November 10, 2022 by visionary

[China]

US military chief: Over 100,000 Russian soldiers killed or wounded in conflict – and same on Ukrainian side

 

Russia has suffered more than 100,000 killed and wounded soldiers as a result of the war in Ukraine, the top US general said Wednesday evening, and Ukraine is probably looking at similar numbers.

 

Joint Chiefs Chair Gen. Mark Milley, speaking at an event at The Economic Club of New York, called Russia’s invasion of Ukraine a “tremendous strategic mistake” for which the country would pay “for years and years and years to come.”

 

The war, which began in late February, has caused a tremendous amount of human suffering, Milley said, including between 15-30 million refugees and about 40,000 innocent Ukrainian civilians killed. 

 

Quote

"You’re looking at well over 100,000 Russian soldiers killed and wounded," Milley said. "Same thing probably on the Ukrainian side."

 

Click on the link for the full article

[visionary]

 

[DogofWar1]

I hope the Russians don't blow the dam but I think if you're a Ukranian military planner you have to plan and operate like they will.

 

Also lol

"Didn't we lose Finland?"

HAHAHA

[China]

Ukrainian Forces Enter Kherson as Russia Completes Retreat

 

Ukraine’s forces swept into the key southern city of Kherson on Friday, after Russian troops completed their withdrawal from the regional capital in one of the largest strategic and symbolic defeats for the Kremlin since it launched its invasion.

 

Cheering Ukrainians welcomed the arriving troops and raised their national flag in a public square in the center of Kherson, the only regional capital that Russia had seized since February, according to videos posted online by Ukrainian officials. A crowd of jubilant residents hoisted Ukrainian soldiers on their shoulders. Residents also raised a European Union flag, a sign of many Ukrainians’ longstanding aspirations to forge closer ties with the bloc.

 

“Glory to heroes. Death to enemies. Ukraine above all!” shouted the crowd.

 

“Ukrainian troops are entering Kherson,” said Ukrainian military intelligence in a statement that told any remaining Russian soldiers to surrender or die.

 

The Russian Defense Ministry said Friday that it had completed the transfer of troops to the east bank of the Dnipro River, which is adjacent to the city. It couldn’t immediately be determined whether any Russian soldiers remained on the western bank.

 

Russia’s withdrawal from Kherson marks a severe military setback for Russian President Vladimir Putin, who claimed to have absorbed the region around the city into Russia’s own territory in September. A strategic port city on the Black Sea, Kherson was also central to Russia’s attempts to capture Ukraine’s vital economic centers early in the war.

 

 

Click on the link for the full article

 

[RansomthePasserby]

Reminds me of when the Allies liberated Europe during WWII. Everyone who says Ukraine needs to negotiate and cede land to Russia for peace needs to realize it’s not land they would be trading, it’s these people’s freedom.

[PokerPacker]

1 hour ago, RansomthePasserby said:

Reminds me of when the Allies liberated Europe during WWII. Everyone who says Ukraine needs to negotiate and cede land to Russia for peace needs to realize it’s not land they would be trading, it’s these people’s freedom.

The ramifications go beyond that, as well.  It validates the strategy of just invading a country and even if you don't get everything you want, you still get something for your trouble.  Come back next time and take some more.  Or go invade someone else.  When you don't punish bad behavior, you invite its continuance.  Rewarding bad behavior is even worse.  Granting them parts of Ukraine is rewarding bad behavior.  Donbas today, somewhere else tomorrow.  We're in this mess in the first place because we did ****-all about Russia invading Ukraine the first time and taking Crimea.

[China]

 

[Gurgeh]

Russia’s loss of Kherson signals change in Putin’s strategy | Ukraine | The Guardian

 

When Ukraine launched its counteroffensive against Kherson at the end of August its military knew it lacked the combat power to storm the city. However, strikes on the bridges over the Dnipro limited Russia’s ability to supply its troops with heavy equipment, while the river protected Ukrainian forces from counterattack. This favourable battlefield geometry allowed Ukraine to create a killing area in which its artillery could inflict heavy casualties on Russia’s most motivated and competent units.

 

...Abandoning the city also had implications for Russia’s strategy to occupy Ukraine. Without a bridgehead on the right bank of the Dnipro, Russian forces will not be able to threaten offensive operations in the spring against Mykolaiv, even if it does generate new combat units from its mobilisation. The defensibility of the river, which Russian forces are counting on to stabilise their casualties, also ensures that Ukraine can shift resources from this axis and offers security to Ukrainian industries on its southern coast.

 

Despite these considerations, the Kremlin eventually concluded that it could more easily weather the political fallout from an orderly withdrawal than from eventually abandoning the city after months more of losses. In doing so Putin has approved a shift in Russia’s strategy; one that seeks to wear out Ukrainian offensive operations against a newly constructed defence line, letting economic warfare exhaust western will and munitions stocks, while regenerating new forces for next year.

 

...Kherson is a step towards victory and demonstrates what can be achieved if there is a steady supply of western military technical assistance. It also underscores the importance of convincing the Kremlin that a managed withdrawal offers better prospects than eventual defeat.

[China]

UK defense ministry: Military training program for Russian schools to be drafted by end of 2022

 

Russia is currently drafting a military training program to be introduced in schools in a government-run initiative to improve the quality of conscripts, the U.K. defense ministry said in its daily intelligence update on Nov. 13.

 

The program will be completed by the end of 2022 and then undergo an approval process, according to the report. It says that the Russian Defense Ministry insists on at least 140 hours per academic year being devoted to training. Typically, an academic year averages 800 hours for children worldwide.

 

The intelligence report comes a few days after Russian Education Minister Sergey Kravstov said on Nov. 9 that military training will return to Russian schools in the following academic year.

 

The program is likely to mimic a Soviet-era initiative that ended in 1993 where students went through mandatory military training, which “included contingencies for a chemical or nuclear attack, first aid and experience handling and firing Kalashnikov rifles,” according to the report.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[China]

Top Kremlin Darling Shocks Putin Officials With Backstabbing Spree

 

In a shocking statement on the eve of the U.S. midterm elections, Yevgeny Prigozhin, the founder of Vladimir Putin’s private army, spoke out about Russia’s relationship with American democracy. “Gentlemen, we have interfered, we do interfere, we will interfere,” he said.

 

It was just the latest sign of how the catering boss-turned-warlord—known as “Putin’s chef”—has become one of the most powerful voices in Russia, with a say in how Moscow deals with everything from the stumbling war in Ukraine to powerful adversaries in Washington.

 

But it’s not only Russia’s foreign rivals that should be worrying about Prigozhin—officials at home are not safe from his attacks either. Last week, Prigozhin accused the governor of Saint Petersburg, Alexander Beglov, of corruption.

 

Prigozhin’s company, Concord, published his appeal to the prosecutor-general of Russia, demanding an investigation into “the possible involvement of the governor Beglov in the creation of an organized crime group on the territory of St. Petersburg in order to plunder the state budget and enrich corrupt officials who are a part of his circle.”

 

This is an unprecedented situation in modern Russia. “Prigozhin going after governor Beglov is a sign of the species in power beginning to eat each other in a Darwinian way,” St. Petersburg deputy Boris Vishnevsky told The Daily Beast. “Putin’s men are running out of resources.”

 

Prigozhin has been regularly attacking top Russian officials in recent weeks, lambasting the Russian military for poorly managing the war in Ukraine.

 

Last month, RIA FAN, one of the news websites linked to Prigozhin, reported “some problems” with local authorities who were trying to stop the construction of the fortifications in the Belgorod region. The governor of Belgorod himself, Vyacheslav Gladkov, then went so far as to personally ensure the construction work continued.

 

“Everything seems to be allowed to Prigozhin these days, he can even arm local men in Belgorod or Kirov regions,” Olga Bychkova, a longtime observer of Kremlin politics, told The Daily Beast. “But this is a very dangerous situation: today Prigozhin criticizes local governments, arms locals and tomorrow somebody who thinks they control the situation in Russia, won’t be able to control it.”

 

Click on the link for the full article