Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[China]

 

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Ok one more post. Alliance was not centered on not attacking one another, but dividing their common enemies. 

 

I'll make a deal with you, when we both have clear heads (because I'm tapped out, too, now) let's take a look at the "Tripartite Pact" and whatever "alliance" Russia and China have today then compare notes another day : )

 

I don't believe we're very far apart here, but it can wait...

[visionary]

 

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

If you want an actual attack on Russia, you will have to pull in more than what we'd have there to enforce a no fly zone.  That would require (potentially) invoking article 5.  

 

NATO enforced a no fly zone in Bosnia.  We didn't launch a ground war because some NATO planes were shot at.

 

If your trying to avoid a war, its probably a good idea to avoid armed conflict between nations/states as that is the literal definition.

If you don't see how having NATO bring armed combatants to enforce a no fly zone and having them face off against armed Russian combatants does not lead to war, then you need to check w/ your local eye doctor. It is the very thing the NATO generals are saying they are trying to avoid:

 

"Creating a continuous, effective no-fly zone over Ukraine would potentially bring NATO into open conflict with Russia, U.S. and NATO officials and military specialists said.

Logistically, they said, enforcing a no-fly zone would require as many as several hundred planes, not only to patrol the area but also to support those aircraft maintaining that no-fly zone, and would necessitate coordination by air forces from multiple nations.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, after an emergency meeting of alliance foreign ministers on Friday, said that alliance members had agreed they wouldn’t operate planes over Ukraine or send troops into the country. “NATO is not seeking a war with Russia,” he said, adding, “We will not be part of the conflict.”

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-04/card/nato-s-no-to-no-fly-zone-highlights-risks-of-such-action-LEK7BTHPAVby14999MGz

 

 

Furthermore Operation Joint Endeavor in Bosnia saw some 60,000 troops deployed including ground units. Here is a picture of US and Russian coalition troops paroling a Bosnian town during the military effort.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BTR-80_and_Bradley.jpg

 

Please research your examples a little better as your only supporting my case.

[visionary]

What gets Russia anxious about their neighbors isn’t NATO.  If it was, they wouldn’t be expanding to get closer to more members.

 

Listening to the rhetoric and complaints of Putin and his cronies the past couple of decades, what scares them is when their puppets or people with their influence lose power and the countries move forward in a more democratic way and away from Russia’s influence.  

The thing they’re obsessed with isn’t NATO, it’s revolutions.  Putin and co. are constantly bringing up color revolutions and trying to undermine any democratic changes in their neighbors.  NATO is an excuse they feed the Russian people.

Edited March 5, 2022 by visionary

[visionary]

 

 

[PeterMP]

40 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

If your trying to avoid a war, its probably a good idea to avoid armed conflict between nations/states as that is the literal definition.

If you don't see how having NATO bring armed combatants to enforce a no fly zone and having them face off against armed Russian combatants does not lead to war, then you need to check w/ your local eye doctor. It is the very thing the NATO generals are saying they are trying to avoid:

 

"Creating a continuous, effective no-fly zone over Ukraine would potentially bring NATO into open conflict with Russia, U.S. and NATO officials and military specialists said.

Logistically, they said, enforcing a no-fly zone would require as many as several hundred planes, not only to patrol the area but also to support those aircraft maintaining that no-fly zone, and would necessitate coordination by air forces from multiple nations.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, after an emergency meeting of alliance foreign ministers on Friday, said that alliance members had agreed they wouldn’t operate planes over Ukraine or send troops into the country. “NATO is not seeking a war with Russia,” he said, adding, “We will not be part of the conflict.”

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-04/card/nato-s-no-to-no-fly-zone-highlights-risks-of-such-action-LEK7BTHPAVby14999MGz

 

 

Furthermore Operation Joint Endeavor in Bosnia saw some 60,000 troops deployed including ground units. Here is a picture of US and Russian coalition troops paroling a Bosnian town during the military effort.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BTR-80_and_Bradley.jpg

 

Please research your examples a little better as your only supporting my case.

 

Yes, it would POTENTIALLY bring NATO into conflict with Russia.

 

As I've said:

"It is possible Putin would say it is an act of war and try to widen the conflict, but it is also possible he wouldn't. You (nor I) know what would happen."

 

You are speaking like something is a certainty that isn't at all a certainty.  Your quote from the NATO general agrees with me.  Not you.

 

Try reading my post again:  "We didn't launch a ground war because some NATO planes were shot at."

 

Go back and see why we put troops on the ground.  It wasn't because some NATO planes got shot at.  It was because the decision made that the no fly zone wasn't enough.  Nobody said, 'Oh no are planes were shot.  We need to put troops on the ground to stop it.'

 

Try reading what I am actually writing.

Edited March 5, 2022 by PeterMP

[PleaseBlitz]

Anthony Blinken gonna come up in here and chill you ****ers out and/or devastate your economies. 
 

Edited March 5, 2022 by PleaseBlitz

[visionary]

Trying to remember what happened with Turkey and Russia a few years back when they had some incidents while both operating in the same area of Syria.

Edited March 5, 2022 by visionary

[Fan since a Fetus]

There is a reason so many Russian helicopters are being shot down 

 

[FootballZombie]

Trust me, I did read your post and your building an argument against yourself.

 

This is you arguing that other events like Bosnia prove that we can erect an No Fly Zone in Russia w/o leading to greater conflict

 

4 hours ago, PeterMP said:

With the no fly zone in Bosnia, NATO planes were attacked but there was no declaration of war or larger retaliation by NATO.

 

 

And this is some guy w/ an eerily similar handle who acknowledges that the very incident that was being presented as an example of how a No Fly Zone could be erected w/o actually utilizing further forms of combat... does indeed use further forms of combat. Your own example is a buoy that counters your argument.

 

32 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Go back and see why we put troops on the ground.  It wasn't because some NATO planes got shot at.  It was because the decision made that the no fly zone wasn't enough.

 

It seems to me that you can't let your own argument..... Fly

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Peregrine]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I never said this was NATO's fault, I said repeatedly that NATO expansion is absolutely a factor here. 

 

NATO expansion post-Cold War has been controversial, so in the context of "how we got here", all the cards should be on the table including ones prior to Putin taking power in Russia in late 1999 - early 2000.

 

https://www.vox.com/22900113/nato-ukraine-russia-crisis-clinton-expansion - in depth look at the controversy of NATO expansion during the 1990s

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/05/opinion/a-fateful-error.html - opinion piece by one of the key architects of USSR containment during the Cold War

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict - addresses myth of US promise not to expand NATO past Germany and Russia taking it to heart anyway 

 

Are all these links written by parrots as well?

Vox???????? And an opinion piece by the guy who was "confident that positive dialogue could commence with the Soviet government" and then was ditched by the USA 50 years before  in 1948(Thats not a key role in containing the USSR until 1991), he wrote the NY Times article and still had a personal take in it?

 

"a huge reason Russia is is invading Ukraine is to keep them from joining NATO."  Thats not saying its just "a factor" here.  Congratulations on finding 3 people who agree with you, Putin can find many many more, but it doesnt make him right.  Its absolutely absurd to try and blame NATO for not perfectly playing a nation who has literally tried to take over much of the world multiple times in just the last 100 years and does not actually believe that NATO is a threat to invade them, which you naively seem to think.

 

Putin would have invaded Ukraine before this had NATO not been involved. Nato and its expansions have had nothing to do with Russian aggression and murder, just when Putin could time it.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Peregrine

[Fan since a Fetus]

Things just got real 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/international-cat-federation-bans-russian-felines-competitions-rcna18595

 

[tshile]

Um. CNN just ran a segment that reported the crew that was in the power plant when the Russians took over, are still there. They haven’t rotated out yet. Been there a day and a half.  They’re essentially held hostage. 
 

That seems like not a good thing. 

42 minutes ago, visionary said:

Trying to remember what happened with Turkey and Russia a few years back when they had some incidents while both operating in the same area of Syria.

They shot down a jet if I recall? Maybe two?

 

i believe it was an airspace dispute. Turkey claimed they crossed into their airspace, Russia said they never left Syria 

Edited March 5, 2022 by tshile

[visionary]

Hmmm, yeah, I think it was something like that. I recall people being scared that they would go to war.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

Things just got real 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/international-cat-federation-bans-russian-felines-competitions-rcna18595

 

****ing weirdo cat people.

[Destino]

2 hours ago, visionary said:

What gets Russia anxious about their neighbors isn’t NATO.  If it was, they wouldn’t be expanding to get closer to more members.

 

Listening to the rhetoric and complaints of Putin and his cronies the past couple of decades, what scares them is when their puppets or people with their influence lose power and the countries move forward in a more democratic way and away from Russia’s influence.  

The thing they’re obsessed with isn’t NATO, it’s revolutions.  Putin and co. are constantly bringing up color revolutions and trying to undermine any democratic changes in their neighbors.  NATO is an excuse they feed the Russian people.

Democracy is inherently threatening to tyrants.  Part of it is reasonable, Democratic states are likely to favor other democracies in their dealings and alliances.  No proper tyrant wants to have scheming free folk breathing down their necks.  Who knows what ideas they might get?  
 

Part of it is the inescapable insecurity that comes with stolen power.  They realize that their own people would gladly set them on fire, and then happily dance on the ashes.  That’s got to be a tough thing to live with.  It would be made tougher still if the neighbors went Democratic and started thriving and being all free, right there where everyone can see them.  That kind of thing gives folks ideas.

[China]

Hundreds of people are booking Airbnb rentals in Ukraine — here’s why

 

Despite the ongoing war with Russia, homes in Ukraine are getting booked up faster than a seaside town at spring break.

 

On Wednesday, the popular Instagram account Quentin.Quarantino took to social media to announce an initiative to financially support families in Ukraine by booking Airbnb rentals.

 

Within a day, hundreds of people joined in on the mission and booked an Airbnb in areas where Ukraine has been most affected.

 

“Yesterday I shared an idea to support Ukraine by booking rooms for rent on AirBnb,” explained the account, which is run by Brooklyn-based influencer Tommy Marcus, who last year raised $7 million on GoFundMe to help evacuate Afghan refugees. “24 hours later, 100’s of people are booking AirBnbs in Ukraine as a way to send immediate monetary assistance to people in hard-hit areas. The message in response from the hosts are so moving.”

 

Click on the link for the full article

[visionary]

 

 

I've learned not to trust ceasefires, especially ones put in place by Russia.

[Barry.Randolphe]

My hypothesis is that NATO is buying time to develop their attack plan/coordination and don't want to tip their hand to Russia. The goal is swift and decisive measures that Russia won't be able to respond to since they're preoccupied with their logistic troubles just moving tanks across the border.

 

Russia is forcing NATO to make a decision with these war crimes and attacking nuclear facilities. We're going to have a nuclear situation regardless at this point judging by how reckless Russian soldiers are acting. The hope is that by buying time, enough top-level Russians get fed up with Putin and don't stand in the way of NATO 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

[FrFan]

Russia: the eternal “return of poor power”?

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by FrFan

[visionary]

 

 

[visionary]