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Was Replacing Kevin O'Connell with Scott Turner at OC a Mistake???

Renegade7

By Renegade7
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Was Replacing Kevin O'Connell with Scott Turner a Mistake???  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Was Replacing Kevin O'Connell with Scott Turner a Mistake???

    • Yes
      34
    • No
      5
    • I don't know
      8
    • I don't care
      4
    • Too Early to tell
      14
    • Hindsight is a B, let it go *insert Frozen music
      9

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method man

method man

Posted
Posted

I was peeved when they let KOC leave. It was impressive to me what Haskins was able to do under KOC's playcalling once Callahan let KOC do his thing. My understanding is that KOC wanted to pick his own offensive staff, which was a no go for Ron. Ron was right on this as the offensive position coaches are generally great - Matsko, Zampese (who would not have been here had KOC been OC as Turner would've been QB coach), Hoener, Jordan and Taylor.

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moondog

moondog

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This also doesn’t matter. If we kept KOC, our offense would probably still have struggled with Heinicke and KOC would still be here, not being a HC here or elsewhere. It’s not like we’d have fired Rivera and moved him up, especially given the lack of success he’d have likely found here. 

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method man

method man

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, moondog said:

This also doesn’t matter. If we kept KOC, our offense would probably still have struggled with Heinicke and KOC would still be here, not being a HC here or elsewhere. It’s not like we’d have fired Rivera and moved him up, especially given the lack of success he’d have likely found here. 

 

Heinicke and Kyle Allen would not have been here under KOC. Both guys are Scott's guys.

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Renegade7

Renegade7

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1 minute ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

You don't think so?  He got the Lions to the playoffs four times.  He got one shot with a good team and won the Super Bowl.  He's not Archie Manning, but he's not Trent Dilfer, either.

 

 Maybe "debatable" is borderline, but he's certainly not first ballot, no way. 

 

He's only been to one pro bowl and never made the all-pro team, good for him for surviving Detroit until he got to a better organization, but when I think HOF I think about comparing him to other HOF QBs.

 

I'd like to come back to that one with more research, fair question, but gun to my head right, no, he's not a HOF, nor borderline.

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NewCliche21

NewCliche21

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3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 Maybe "debatable" is borderline, but he's certainly not first ballot, no way. 

 

He's only been to one pro bowl and never made the all-pro team, good for him for surviving Detroit until he got to a better organization, but when I think HOF I think about comparing him to other HOF QBs.

 

I'd like to come back to that one with more research, fair question, but gun to my head right, no, he's not a HOF, nor borderline.

 

We are on the EXACT same page. Not a Manning or Brady or Marino, but a possible second-tier HOFer if that makes sense.  But yeah, more research needed before voting either way for me, too.

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Peregrine

Peregrine

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Posted

Yes, obviously.  But Ron wanted a coach that embodied everything Ron loves about someone: Their Carolinaness.  And Turner had the Carolinaness that KOC didnt.  The fact of the matter is some of the very best offensive minds in the NFL all were coaching out of Ashburn, and we managed to find a way to keep none of them in the building despite people from around the league, hundreds of miles away seeing their value and offering them jobs.  People who didnt know them very well valued them higher than the office that knew them very well.  Its as simple as that.

 

That tells you all you need to know about the "talent evaluators" here.

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mistertim

mistertim

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I don't think it matters.

 

I think we've had plenty of talented offensive coaches. McVay, O'Connell, Jay (regardless of him not being a very good HC IMO he's a good offensive mind and play designer), and I think now Turner is probably pretty good too, judging by how much evidence we've seen of guys getting open in film.

 

The problem is, we've never had competent QB play. Without that, the coaching is borderline meaningless. Great coaches can get more out of mediocre talent than ****ty coaches, but they can't turn water into wine. A great offensive coordinator can scheme guys guys open, but he can't pass to them and can't force the QB to see the field.

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Warhead36

Warhead36

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22 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I don't think it matters.

 

I think we've had plenty of talented offensive coaches. McVay, O'Connell, Jay (regardless of him not being a very good HC IMO he's a good offensive mind and play designer), and I think now Turner is probably pretty good too, judging by how much evidence we've seen of guys getting open in film.

 

The problem is, we've never had competent QB play. Without that, the coaching is borderline meaningless. Great coaches can get more out of mediocre talent than ****ty coaches, but they can't turn water into wine. A great offensive coordinator can scheme guys guys open, but he can't pass to them and can't force the QB to see the field.

This guy gets it.

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Darth Tater

Darth Tater

Posted
Posted
  • This season, KOC had Stafford. The most effective route concept for LA only worked because Stafford has the ability to execute it along with a solid number two WR for much of the season (another key to making the base part of LA's offense work is a backside WR who runs excellent dig routes and is also a deep threat). Without that route concept working (one of the reasons Rams wanted Stafford), their offense would have sucked. Turner had Heineke and only Terry for much of the season. Through a period of games, the only thing that stopped our offense were execution fails and limited play options. 
  • Last season, Goff was much better than anything we had. The Rams offense was still mediocre.
  • The core of what KOC does now is what McVay put in place.
  • KOC is now gone.
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VirginiaVibes

VirginiaVibes

Posted
Posted

Yes. Not that I hate Turner but when KOC took over playcalling not only was the QB playing better but we were getting good production out of WRs OTHER than Terry McLaurin. 

 

I think we lost a lot in terms of consistency and comraderie...the team was starting to build what looked like a solid foundation with Harmon, Sims, McLaurin. 

 

Now Haskins issues and not wanting to work were his own doing but he played his best ball when KOC was calling plays. People don't understand the importance of continuity and putting aside the QB position Turner has had real trouble getting other receivers involved in the passing game (and doesn't even get the ball to McLaurin as consistently as he should)

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Voice_of_Reason

Voice_of_Reason

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Bottom line up top: I don't think it mattered because of the QBs on the roster.  I don't KOC could have gotten any more out of the bunch of miscreants we had than Turner has.  I actually think he did a fairly good job working around some of the significant limitations of a QB who didn't study, a Qb with one leg, and a QB who has probably the worst NFL arm talent of anybody playing in the league.  I do think there are some nits to pick, to be sure, but on the whole, the situation he's had to deal with between Haskins, Allen, Smith and Heinecke, I mean, I'm not entirely sure Bill Walsh would have been able to do a heck of a lot better.  Better?  Yeah.  A lot better?  eh.....

 

The ONLY, and I mean ONLY possible reason KOC MIGHT have been better is Haskins would not have had to learn a new system going into year 2, and there is a 1% chance he might not have busted quite as spectacularly as he ended up busting.  But I think the odds of that were so low, it's almost not even worth considering. 

 

@Renegade7, if I remember correctly, KOC was the OC in 2019, but Jay was still calling plays, and it was basically Jay's offense, until he got fired.  Then it was Old Man Callahan's RUN RUN RUN then RUN SOMEMORE offense, which technically KOC was calling, but I think he was reading from a script that was kindof given to him.

 

So I'm not entirely sure his OC year in 2019 was really all that distinguishing.

 

If you listen to Cooley, who knows all of them, McVay, Kyle, KOC and LaFleur, he was somewhat ambivalent towards KOC.  I think he said that he knew ball, but questioned whether he

really was the kind of leader that McVay and Kyle were.  

 

And I think KOC is getting a ton of credit just by being associated with McVay, who is like the new King Maker.  He didn't call offensive plays for the Rams, Stafford was already a top 10-ish QB while he was languishing in Detroit, they had some incredible weapons there , so it's not like he had to scheme wine from water over there.  I mean, let's be honest, that's Sean's offense.  KOC probably did a lot of the OC legwork, but it's Sean's offense and he calls plays.  I'm sure he's bright, he apparently is very personable, but he's probably about to go to the Vikings and be in the same situation Jim Zorn was in: First Time Head Coach, most likely, first time play caller.  Will it work out for him?  Eh, who knows.  It might.  But it's far from a sure thing.  

 

The biggest issue i had with turning to Scott Turner had almost nothing to do WITH Scott Turner.  Turner is now one of a VERY VERY few coaches that run the legacy "number based" version of the Coryell system.  The lineage is Coryell to Zampese to Norv to Scott.  Most of the league has moved to some version of the Bill Walsh West Coast Offense, since his tree is so massively expansive, including Holmgren and his tree, Reid and his tree, Shanahan and his tree, The Gruden's and their trees, and now McVay and his tree.  I haven't done the math, but it's got to be well over 75% of the offenses have some foundation in the WCO.  So, by going with Turner, it almost guaranteed every player coming in here was learning a language they hadn't spoken before.  Which I guess is fine, but all things being equal, I'd prefer to go with the language more people are familiar with. 

 

In no way am I saying it isn't a good offense, it's totally fine, it's just if 3/4 of the league is speaking French, you're bringing in everybody in and teaching them Italian.  

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NickyJ

NickyJ

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The ONLY, and I mean ONLY possible reason KOC MIGHT have been better is Haskins would not have had to learn a new system going into year 2, and there is a 1% chance he might not have busted quite as spectacularly as he ended up busting.  But I think the odds of that were so low, it's almost not even worth considering. 

To tack on to this, if KOC was the OC in 2020 and got the significant input that Turner did.... Would KOC actually want to deal with Haskins? KOC got to deal with Haskins in person. I can't think of a single person who did and came away saying anything but negative opinions.

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Voice_of_Reason

Voice_of_Reason

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

To tack on to this, if KOC was the OC in 2020 and got the significant input that Turner did.... Would KOC actually want to deal with Haskins? KOC got to deal with Haskins in person. I can't think of a single person who did and came away saying anything but negative opinions.

That’s a good question.  Maybe not.  And maybe that would have ended the Haskins experiment earlier.  

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VirginiaVibes

VirginiaVibes

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, NickyJ said:

To tack on to this, if KOC was the OC in 2020 and got the significant input that Turner did.... Would KOC actually want to deal with Haskins? KOC got to deal with Haskins in person. I can't think of a single person who did and came away saying anything but negative opinions.

 

I mean, i don't know about 2020 but KOC was a pretty vocal Dwayne supporter at the end od 2019 and Dwayne was all over social media begging for them to keep KOC as offensive coordinator.

 

Here KOC said regardless of where he ended up he would keep in touch with Haskins

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/redskins-oc-proud-of-progress-shown-by-haskins-0ap3000001092032

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Riggo#44

Riggo#44

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Posted
4 minutes ago, VirginiaVibes said:

 

I mean, i don't know about 2020 but KOC was a pretty vocal Dwayne supporter at the end od 2019 and Dwayne was all over social media begging for them to keep KOC as offensive coordinator.

 

Here KOC said regardless of where he ended up he would keep in touch with Haskins

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/redskins-oc-proud-of-progress-shown-by-haskins-0ap3000001092032

KOC also could have signed Haskins when he was a FA, but didn't. 

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