The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

For anyone reading this without context, ThinkingSkins is notorious for falling in love with undrafted or late round, physically limited guys.  He’s got a Nick Mullins highlight reel on constant loop, of course it’s only 30 seconds long.

 

I kid…

I do love a David and Goliath story. But I'm all about the guys playing more than the ideal team. I wasn't in love with Cousins but he was here so I wanted to keep him at a reasonable cost. Same with Brunell and Campbell and Ramsey. But now we have Taylor and I think he could be a good QB. 

24 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

If he was 22, I would agree wholeheartedly with you.  But he's not.  And he also continues to throw from his back foot, and makes at least 2 boneheaded throws a game.  

Good points. The age is the most limiting factor but he's not 40 and we're winning while he grows. We were willing to do it with Fitz who has similar number (I think) but it's 40 with no growth. Heinicke is young compared to QB duration and younger than Wentz. I say let it ride. 

[SkinsFTW]

59 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Prime Alex Smith could do some real damage with this roster/coaching staff.

Like the time the Chiefs led in the playoffs like 38-7 and still lost the game because Alex Smith wouldn't take a single chance to get any 1st downs the entire 2nd half.

 

No thanks. At least Heine will attempt to get the win, even if he ends up blowing it.

Edited November 28, 2022 by SkinsFTW

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Like the time the Chiefs led in the playoffs like 38-7 and still lost the game because Alex Smith wouldn't take a single chance to get any 1st downs the entire 2nd half.

 

No thanks. At least Heine will attempt to get the win, even if he ends up blowing it.

The Kansas City Chiefs went 50 years without a SB appearance.  Alex Smith was there for 4 of those years.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

17 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Speaking of offensive line, the sacks have dropped off dramatically in the last 6 weeks.

You don’t say?  First I’ve heard or noticed that.  It’s not as if the Henicke guys have been on constant loop repeating this over and over again.

 

I’ve said it numerous times now, Heinicke can’t be benched and there’s never been a reason to risk a 2nd round pick by playing Wentz.  But some of you guys are so rabid in hatred for Wentz  and/or love of Taylor, you are really disingenuous.  The OL is healthier now, Robinson returned and has his legs, and the defense made adjustments that have proven very positive.  I could care less about Wentz, and there is no way I’d risk the mojo by going with him until the Heiny hype dies.  Even then, if that’s at a point there is no chance of playoffs I’d go with Howell.  
 

But this offense is entirely different with Heinicke, it’s not even remotely close to what they deployed for Wentz.  Added protection, healthier and beyond loyal to running the ball.  

Edited November 28, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Thinking Skins]

Here's another comparison - Doug Flutie. These are the stats from his 1999 season. 

 

No.	Player	Age	Pos	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	Sk%	NY/A	ANY/A	4QC	GWD
7	Doug Flutie	37	QB	15	15	10-5-0	264	478	55.2	3171	19	4.0	16	3.3	54	6.6	5.9	12.0	211.4	75.1		26	176	5.2	5.94	5.27	2	2

157 / 478 = 32.8% First Downs

 

Compare that to Heinicke 

2021	28	WAS	QB	4	16	15	7-8-0	321	494	65.0	3419	20	4.0	15	3.0	167	73	6.9	6.4	10.7	213.7	85.9	39.9	38	278	7.1	5.90	5.39	3	4	11
2022	29	WAS	QB	4	6	6	5-1-0	104	171	60.8	1169	7	4.1	5	2.9	60	49	6.8	6.3	11.2	194.8	82.7	47.0	9	72	5.0	6.09	5.62	1	1

 

Remember people talking about not knowing why he was winning, and him keeping plays alive and them trying to replace him with Rob Johnson, etc. Similar story. But we can see similarities in the guys. TD%, Int%, YPG, Sack%, 1D%, etc. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

38 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'm just going to use this as a pivot to talk about Taylor more. I'm not going to get into the back and forth about who's better because I support whoever we're playing at QB. I was a pro Wentz guy and went after all the haters who had him ranked 33rd and lower in QB ratings. But lets look at some stats for Taylor

 

2021 vs 2022: 

Record:7-8 vs 5-1 (better)

Comp % 65 vs 60.8 (worse)

TD% 4.0 vs 4.1 (same or marginally better)

Int% 3.0 vs 2.9 (same or marginally better)

Y/A 6.9 vs 6.8 (same or marginally worse)

Y/C 10.7 vs 11.2 (better)

Y/G 213.4 vs 194.7 (worse)

rate 85.9 vs 82.7 (worse)

QBR 39.9 vs 47 (better)

sack % 7.1 vs 5 (better)

1D% 33.8 vs 35 (better)

 

I bring this up because so many people are grading Taylor as a finished product, but I see a young QB who to this day has only played in 30 regular season games. His first real action over an extended period of time was last year. So yeah he may know the offense inside and out but I think he can grow into a much better QB. Maybe he will never have the arm strength of Carson but he's learning to not make the same mistakes and winning while doing it. We have two games in a row with no sacks. He's taking less sacks than Wentz and less than last year (when he had a better OL). He's throwing for more first downs and at a slightly improved TD and Interception rate. 

 

I know he's 29 but what I've been saying on Twitter is we can insert Howell or whoever in the draft or FA we want to anoint as the next savior, but this team has had

Cousins (26-30-1),

Campbell (20-32),

Brunell (15-18),

RG3 (14-21)

Heinicke (12-9),
Smith (11-5) and
as good QBs in the Snyder era (post Brad Johnson). Thats going through

Ramsey (10-14),

Banks (8-6),

Grossman (6-10),

McNabb (5-8),
Collins (3-0),

Matthews (3-4),

Haskins (3-10),

Wuerffel (2-2),

Wentz (2-5). 

Johnson (1-2),

Allen (1-3),

Hasselbeck (1-4),
George (1-6),
McCoy (1-6),
Keenum (1-7),
Sanchez (0-1),

Gilbert (0-1),

Fitzpatrick (0-1)

Beck (0-3),

 

Thats a list of mobile / immobile / first rounders / low rounders / strong arm / weak arm / older / younger / intelligent / whatever you want to say but look at the number who sucked. The only ones with 10+ wins and a winning record are Heinicke and Smith. I say let him grow as a starter. If he becomes a great QB, then great. And if he fails, let him fail and be replaced but I want to see what he can become. Is his ceiling Jimmy G? Is it Brunell? Is he another Wuerffel? Is he an Alex Smith (thats who I compare his current play to), especially that 2020 Smith when Smith went 5-1 and was throwing Ints at a 3.2% and getting just 197 YPG. But his QBR was only 28.2 then (28.9 on 1D% which is lower than Heinicke's 35%). But I think he's at Smith in 2022, but can he get to Brunell levels in Jacksonville, where he was getting TD% in the 3s, 4s and 5s, Int% in the low 2s or 1s and 1D% in the 35 or 36. I think he could be just that. He had some seasons where he had YPG in teh high 200s, but most of his seasons were around 215 yards. I would like to see Heinicke develop into something like that. 

 

What we're witnessing here is something we've never seen under Snyder and I can probably go back to the 1992 season and say since Gibbs 1. Lets let it marinate and see what Heinicke can grow into. 

 

I liked your post and it reflects some of the things I was saying this past offseason about Heinicke actually being able to improve due to his insanely limited playing time in the 4 years before starting in 2021. But I'm not really on board with seeing guys like McLaurin have their primes wasted trying to see if the QB can (might) improve. I'd much rather have a younger drafted QB with a higher ceiling that the coaches and front office strongly believe can improve, instead of an older QB who they want to see if he can improve.

[ntotoro]

14 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

Like the time the Chiefs led in the playoffs like 38-7 and still lost the game because Alex Smith wouldn't take a single chance to get any 1st downs the entire 2nd half.

 

No thanks. At least Heine will attempt to get the win, even if he ends up blowing it.

 

Heiney had two drives where he could have closed out the game yesterday and didn't do it either time. An opportunistic INT and a player running into the Punter closed it out.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I liked your post and it reflects some of the things I was saying this past offseason about Heinicke actually being able to improve due to his insanely limited playing time in the 4 years before starting in 2021. But I'm not really on board with seeing guys like McLaurin have their primes wasted trying to see if the QB can (might) improve. I'd much rather have a younger drafted QB with a higher ceiling that the coaches and front office strongly believe can improve, instead of an older QB who they want to see if he can improve.

I get that and if they want to go with Howell I'll back it. But Taylor is not playing so badly that he needs to be replaced. He's growing and I think its nice to see development. And I feel like we're on a road trip and dad is saying we're not going to make it 500 miles on these tires so lets go ahead and buy some new tires. That's not what you do on a road trip. When we get to the destination you can try to get new tires. But now during the trip. Right now we're mid season. Lets play Heinicke and let him go. 

[No Nonsense]

The Commanders are caught between a rock and a hard place. They absolutely can’t take Taylor out because they’re winning, even though they’re winning despite him. Then there’s Wentz, who probably still gives us the best shot at winning anything significant this year. 

[NickyJ]

Alex Smith in his prime had some of the mobility of Heinicke and twice the arm. Alex was frustratingly happy to coast on small stat lines. Heinicke is fighting tooth and nail to get the same results. But it's hilarious to watch people complain about how Alex couldn't close many playoff games but still think that Heinicke will while putting up similar box scores.

 

 

I guess the difference is that the box score doesn't count for how Heinicke pushed the referee into his triple coverage Vikings pass, or when he reached up and deflected Mariota's pass and caught it in the endzone so that a running into the kicker penalty could close the game.

Heinicke also has Terry Mac, Jahan Dotson, Curtis Samuel, Antonio Gibson, and Brian Robinson. Smith had Jamison Crowder, Josh Doctson, Paul Richardson, Adrian Peterson, and Chris Thompson. Heinicke has the far better roster, but hey, I'll give him credit that he puts up what he does while willingly tying one arm behind his back by avoiding Dotson.

Edited November 28, 2022 by NickyJ

[SpacePenguin]

3 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Alex Smith in his prime had some of the mobility of Heinicke and twice the arm. Alex was frustratingly happy to coast on small stat lines. Heinicke is fighting tooth and nail to get the same results. But it's hilarious to watch people complain about how Alex couldn't close many playoff games but still think that Heinicke will while putting up similar box scores.

 

 

I guess the difference is that the box score doesn't count for how Heinicke pushed the referee into his triple coverage Vikings pass, or when he reached up and deflected Mariota's pass and caught it in the endzone so that a running into the kicker penalty could close the game.

 

They are both terrible, and "prime" Alex Smith is an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. The big difference in my view, is that Heinicke is being paid what he's worth, and didn't cost draft picks nor players to acquire.

 

It's hard to get too worked up with a below average to average QB when they cost so little. Also, I have to admit that I do like that Heinicke will at least take some risks when down. Alex Smith would check it down regardless, aside from that one season in KC when Tyreek Hill was getting 5-10 yards of seperation on damn near every play.

[Ball Security]

Both guys have now each played six games.  Some fun facts: Heinicke has the better yards per attempt and Wentz has more rushing yards. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

13 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Alex Smith in his prime had some of the mobility of Heinicke and twice the arm. Alex was frustratingly happy to coast on small stat lines. Heinicke is fighting tooth and nail to get the same results. But it's hilarious to watch people complain about how Alex couldn't close many playoff games but still think that Heinicke will while putting up similar box scores.

 

 

I guess the difference is that the box score doesn't count for how Heinicke pushed the referee into his triple coverage Vikings pass, or when he reached up and deflected Mariota's pass and caught it in the endzone so that a running into the kicker penalty could close the game.

Heinicke also has Terry Mac, Jahan Dotson, Curtis Samuel, Antonio Gibson, and Brian Robinson. Smith had Jamison Crowder, Josh Doctson, Paul Richardson, Adrian Peterson, and Chris Thompson. Heinicke has the far better roster, but hey, I'll give him credit that he puts up what he does while willingly tying one arm behind his back by avoiding Dotson.

 

The other difference is that the box score doesn't show how Smith was incapable of overcoming even the smallest deficits and lead the team to a win--or even just to take the lead in a loss--as where Heinicke seems to do so in almost every game.

[CommanderCarson]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

What’s getting old is your daily diatribes about the fanbase.  Your posts wreak of “I got a C+ in Psych 101, so I’m basically a psychologist”.

 

Just a big word salad of assumptions, hyperbole, and whining that not every fan absorbs the team in the fashion you would like.  
 

It started with how we are a bad fanbase for caring about Dan too much, not attending games and you’ve since graduated to standing on a broken down soapbox shouting everyone down about not liking Heinicke enough.

 

I can think of literally one person here that doesn’t enjoy winning and that’s @Zim489 who is very transparent about that.  Everyone else is along for the ride, with varying opinions but on the ride none the less.  

 

 

This isn’t one I expected to wake up today, wow must have hit a nerve!

 

Sorry you feel that way, wasn’t even remotely referring to you.

 

Sorry I find it crazy to complain about the QB when we’re actually becoming a damn good football team that’s fun to watch for the first time in forever. Psych 101?! Haha wtf are you talking about man. 

[skinny21]

I’m sure there’s a very valid reason not to do this, but I’d like to see Wentz (or Howell, for that matter) put in for some snaps here and there.  Even more so if Heinicke is hurting a bit.  Have him mostly hand the ball (I’d think defenses would lighten the box) off with some quick hitters/RPO mixed in - bubble screens and slants for example.  See how that goes and eventually mix in a deeper shot.  Feels like crazy talk because it’s so unorthodox, but I don’t know… feel like it could work.

 

Two plays that should effectively be removed from the playbook - comebacks (I said last year that Taylor shouldn’t be throwing these… unless he’s throwing it before the receiver breaks, and even then, only vs man) and running back screens (I don’t think this one has much to do with TH, but I’ve never seen a play so consistently lose yardage.  It’s weird.).

[SoCalSkins]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m sure there’s a very valid reason not to do this, but I’d like to see Wentz (or Howell, for that matter) put in for some snaps here and there.  Even more so if Heinicke is hurting a bit.  Have him mostly hand the ball (I’d think defenses would lighten the box) off with some quick hitters/RPO mixed in - bubble screens and slants for example.  See how that goes and eventually mix in a deeper shot.  Feels like crazy talk because it’s so unorthodox, but I don’t know… feel like it could work.

 

Two plays that should effectively be removed from the playbook - comebacks (I said last year that Taylor shouldn’t be throwing these… unless he’s throwing it before the receiver breaks, and even then, only vs man) and running back screens (I don’t think this one has much to do with TH, but I’ve never seen a play so consistently lose yardage.  It’s weird.).

You prefer to be right about your opinion of TH than for Washington to win games. My feelings are hurt because the moxie guy keeps winning. Wah wah. 
 

You want to make changes to see what “could work”. You know what is working now? TH4 starting and leading this team to win after win. Put some respect on his name and bow down to his greatness. 😂 

[NickyJ]

1 minute ago, SpacePenguin said:

They are both terrible, and "prime" Alex Smith is an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. The big difference in my view, is that Heinicke is being paid what he's worth, and didn't cost draft picks nor players to acquire.

 

It's hard to get too worked up with a below average to average QB when they cost so little. Also, I have to admit that I do like that Heinicke will at least take some risks when down. Alex Smith would check it down regardless, aside from that one season in KC when Tyreek Hill was getting 5-10 yards of seperation on damn near every play.

"Prime" Alex Smith is hardly an oxymoron. Prime is when he still had 2 functioning legs lol.

 

It's easy for me to get worked up about it. We have a roster that can clearly perform far beyond the results we're getting now, and that's without even touching the offensive line that clearly needs some upgrades. And it's being squandered because we don't have any QBs on the roster who can perform even the most average of tasks. If Heinicke always performs the herculean effort of not throwing 2 interceptions in a game, we might stand a chance. But that's not something I'd bank on to make it through the playoffs.

4 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

The other difference is that the box score doesn't show how Smith was incapable of overcoming even the smallest deficits and lead the team to a win--or even just to take the lead in a loss--as where Heinicke seems to do so in almost every game.

Smith and Heinicke have played largely the same, even in wins and losses. Smith in Washington rarely lost a close game. The ones he lost were blowouts, which Heinicke has experienced plenty of times in Washington. Again, I'm more reluctant to give Heinicke credit for playing on the defense and making last second interceptions and fumble recoveries. It's just not fair to judge other QBs who can't play both sides of the field.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

This isn’t one I expected to wake up today, wow must have hit a nerve!

 

Sorry you feel that way, wasn’t even remotely referring to you.

 

Sorry I find it crazy to complain about the QB when we’re actually becoming a damn good football team that’s fun to watch for the first time in forever. Psych 101?! Haha wtf are you talking about man. 

A lot of your posts where you complain about other fans come with your assessment that they feel the way they do, because of some ulterior motive.  Ie: They don’t like Heinicke because they liked Wentz or that folks are rooting for the team to lose because of Heinicke.  Perhaps they don’t like Heinicke because he looks just like he’s always looked, maybe worse. The team is winning anyways which is cool but it’s clear Heinicke is closer to anchor than an engine.

 

 

3 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

You prefer to be right about your opinion of TH than for Washington to win games. My feelings are hurt because the moxie guy keeps winning. Wah wah. 
 

You want to make changes to see what “could work”. You know what is working now? TH4 starting and leading this team to win after win. Put some respect on his name and bow down to his greatness. 😂 

@skinny21 has literally been more pro Taylor than not for a long time now.

 

You even had the audacity to come at @zCommander who is literally the founding father and President of the Heinicke Hive.

 

Go home, you’re drunk.

[CommanderCarson]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

A lot of your posts where you complain about other fans come with your assessment that they feel the way they do, because of some ulterior motive.  Ie: They don’t like Heinicke because they liked Wentz or that folks are rooting for the team to lose because of Heinicke.  Perhaps they don’t like Heinicke because he looks just like he’s always looked, maybe worse. The team is winning anyways which is cool but it’s clear Heinicke is closer to anchor than an engine.

 

 

We all do that dude, it’s trying to make sense of what’s driving someone’s feelings on the matter. 
 

And yes, if you fought tooth and nail all off season that heineke must be replaced and got really excited about a genuinely good passing offense, I could see how Taylor’s limitations and the way we are winning games could be annoying. Again, I wasn’t referring to you now or in the original. You seem pretty upbeat about winning, even though you think heineke is an anchor in the process. 

 

I don’t think anyone is rooting for the team to lose because of heineke or at least I hope not? I don’t think I ever mentioned that.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

14 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Smith and Heinicke have played largely the same, even in wins and losses. Smith in Washington rarely lost a close game. The ones he lost were blowouts, which Heinicke has experienced plenty of times in Washington. Again, I'm more reluctant to give Heinicke credit for playing on the defense and making last second interceptions and fumble recoveries. It's just not fair to judge other QBs who can't play both sides of the field.

 

In 2018 (the year you posted stats for), if the team fell behind 3-0 on the first drive, it was a guaranteed loss. I'm not exaggerating for effect...the team was guaranteed to lose in that scenario if Smith was behind center. It was a massive criticism aimed towards Alex Smith on this site by fans. The same can in no way be said of the 2022 team with Heinicke behind center. To me, that says Smith and Heinicke have not played largely the same, at all. The 2022 team with Heinicke regularly overcomes adversity...the 2018 team with Smith literally never did, even once. It might be why players tend to say things like they feel like they always have a chance with Heinicke.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[skinny21]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

@skinny21 has literally been more pro Taylor than not for a long time now.

 

You even had the audacity to come at @zCommander who is literally the founding father and President of the Heinicke Hive.

 

Go home, you’re drunk.

Lol.  There is literally one poster I’ve ever put on ignore in my 16 years here… it’s nice to have that decision validated once again.

 

[Thinking Skins]

These are Tim Tebow's stats

 

2011	24	DEN	QB	15	14	11	7-4-0	126	271	46.5	1729	12	4.4	6	2.2	77	56	6.4	6.3	13.7	123.5	72.9	38.6	33	225	10.9	4.95	4.85	5	5	8

 

Heinicke is nowhere near that bad. 

[Warhead36]

5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

These are Tim Tebow's stats

 

2011	24	DEN	QB	15	14	11	7-4-0	126	271	46.5	1729	12	4.4	6	2.2	77	56	6.4	6.3	13.7	123.5	72.9	38.6	33	225	10.9	4.95	4.85	5	5	8

 

Heinicke is nowhere near that bad. 

Its not so much that Heinicke is as bad as Tebow but its the whole inexpliciable affect thing. Neither are really contributing to their team's success in the traditional sense but there is that whole "magic" factor to it.

[NickyJ]

16 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

In 2018 (the year you posted stats for), if the team fell behind 3-0 on the first drive, it was a guaranteed loss. I'm not exaggerating for effect...the team was guaranteed to lose in that scenario if Smith was behind center. It was a massive criticism aimed towards Alex Smith on this site by fans. The same can in no way be said of the 2022 team with Heinicke behind center. To me, that says Smith and Heinicke have not played largely the same, at all. The 2022 team with Heinicke regularly overcomes adversity...the 2018 team with Smith literally never did, even once. It might be why players tend to say things like they feel like they always have a chance with Heinicke.

 

 

The only team that Smith lost to that finished with a losing record in 2018 was the Atlanta Falcons at 7-9. Every other loss was to a team that finished the season with 10+ wins. They were good teams. You're reading too deeply into a common statistic: Good teams beat mediocre teams. So far this season, Heinicke has beaten one team with a winning record: The Eagles. That was a good win, but there's only one more team with a losing record on the schedule in the Cleveland Browns. If Heinicke can close the season without choking on winning teams, THEN I'll say that Heinicke is achieving more than Alex did with 2 legs, and even then, it's with the caveat that our receivers and runningbacks are undeniably better than what Smith played with in 2018.

Edited November 28, 2022 by NickyJ

[DJHJR86]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

But this offense is entirely different with Heinicke, it’s not even remotely close to what they deployed for Wentz.  Added protection, healthier and beyond loyal to running the ball.  

 

Heinicke could never run the offense Turner had hoped to run with Wentz.  Neither could Wentz.  There is this belief that you could insert Wentz in now because the line is playing better and they are running the ball more efficiently and it would improve overall because of his rocket of an arm...while also ignoring that he's a statue who takes unnecessary sacks and throws 105 mph fastballs behind his check downs.  I'm not in "love" with Taylor, nor do I "hate" Wentz.  I'd rather them bench Heinicke for Howell.  I do not think Heinicke is the future of this franchise.  The QB of the future, IMO, isn't on this roster.  I feel like you don't need to constantly re-type all of these disclaimers when even the slightest praise of Heinicke is given.