The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[757SeanTaylor21]

Crazy that Wentz is not even a middle of the pack starter anymore when we have a 32/32 bottom OC. Like a bottom 10 O Line and not much of a run game neither

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

Crazy that Wentz is not even a middle of the pack starter anymore when we have a 32/32 bottom OC. Like a bottom 10 O Line and not much of a run game neither

Wentz through the first 2 weeks was tied for the league lead in TDs, and the offense was explosive.  

 

Then the OL completely fell apart.  Rouiller got hurt, Schweitzer got hurt, Turner can't play, and Larsen wasn't back from PUP yet.

 

That, as they say, was that.  The next 2 games, they couldn't do squat, and 80% of that lay with the OL's inability to do anything. 

 

What is wild to me is Ron said over and over and over this off-season they needed to protect Wentz and give him weapons.  

 

Weapons he has.

 

Protect him?  The plan was replace Flowers and Scherff with Norwell and Turner, have Schweitzer as the swing backup.  Well, that plan failed spectacularly, and it has disrupted the entire season.  

 

Even Wentz's injury, he was throwing quick, and a DL was in his face, and he hit his arm/helmet.  Because whoever was trying to block was pushed directly back into the QB.

 

There are a few QBs who can make something out of nothing on a regular basis.  Peak Wilson was one of those guys.  

 

But Wentz isn't.  He needs an extra beat to get rid of the ball, and when you pressure him, he goes from above average/good to absolutely horrendous.  

[757SeanTaylor21]

I agree bro...I don't blame entirely.. I blame o line and oc mostly but Wentz gets some blame sprinkled it too. That int at the 1 was an absolute horrible pick that would of won us the game

[DJHJR86]

44 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sorry, I know your take is usually a delusional take.
It's reactionary.

Nobody who ever watched Colt McCoy would ever take that up as a reference, except people who actually remember Colt ****ing McCoy, so I don't know what to say.

 

ESPN's QBR ranking is from a scale of 0 to 100.  50 is average.  Here is how "the greatest QB we've had here in a long time" stacks up with some other recent quarterbacks (while they were with this team):

 

Games with a QBR below 50:

Wentz: 6 out of 6

McCoy: 6 out of 10

Haskins: 12 out of 16

Smith: 12 out of 18

Allen: 0 out of 4

Keeenum: 5 out of 9

Heinicke: 8 out of 17

 

Games with a QBR below 25:
Wentz: 3 out of 6

McCoy: 2 out of 10

Haskins: 9 out of 16

Smith: 4 out of 18

Allen: 0 out of 4

Keenum: 3 out of 9

Heinicke: 3 out of 17

 

Wentz QBR right now: 34.1

McCoy's QBR in 2014 (when he started the most games): 40

Haskins 2019 QBR: 28

Haskins 2020 QBR: 24.8

Smith 2018 QBR: 46.9

Smith 2020 QBR: 28.2

Allen 2020 QBR: 68.2

Keenum 2019 QBR: 45.6

Heinicke 2021 QBR: 45.8

 

For comparison to Cousins, he had 22 games with a QBR below 50 out of 59, and 7 games with a QBR below 25.  You know, the actual last good quarterback we had here on this team.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by DJHJR86

[goskins10]

I apprecaite the take but unlike @Jumbo I will take a shot at rebuttal. 

 

On 10/18/2022 at 3:52 PM, ThomasRoane said:

 

As a fan, I'd like to see what Howell can do.  Putting on my coach's hat though, I can see why they're not starting him.  

 

1) How much of the offense does he know?  If he can't execute at least 70% of the playbook then the offense will be predictable, and you won't really see if he has game or not.  Can he set protections at an NFL level?  He'll need to prove that he can master that aspect of the game first.  I have no doubt that he's a tough kid.  But you don't want him getting his brains beat in because he forgot to get his RB on a potentially free rusher.  How comfortable is he calling plays in the huddle?  He needs to speak clearly and quickly.  As soon as the coaching staff is confident in those things then they should play Howell.  But not before. 

 

With TH the playbook is already at best 70%. He may know more of it but he can't run it, certainly not anything approaching efficiently. I still remember many shortish to intermediate routes where when he threw it the guy was open only to have several defenders be able to close in and break it up. And the stacking the box was real. Now losing MCCissick did seem to hurt him more than most. But not sure thgat's enough. 

 

As for calling plays, Howell from that standpoint was probably one of the most ready of the QBs who came out this year. I would not worry about that. He had reasons for falling to the 5th but being comfortable at tyhe line is not one of them. He also gives you critical plays TH does not, meaning the parts of the offense he does not know will not hurt as much as what TH cannot run. 

 

On 10/18/2022 at 3:52 PM, ThomasRoane said:

 

2) Howell hasn't seen how Turner's offense is supposed to be run.  Not from Wentz and not during a regular season where more in-depth game planning is conducted.  At the least, Heinicke will be able to demonstrate what Turner is looking for from his QB.  Now, whether Turner is a good OC or not is still up for debate.  We'll see because he's got a system friendly QB now.   It's just as important to see what Turner can do as it is the QB.  If he's not a good OC, then RR needs to move on from him.  He has the best complement of skills players yet and a QB who knows his system.  Don't care about the Oline.  It's time for Turner to prove himself.  Overcome the Oline challenges and find a way to move the ball!

 

Has anyone seen it run likes supposed to? Not being a smart ass. Honest question. I thought we got a glimpse early but it dissappeared. Agian, referring to #1 THs limitations really nullify this argument. As for Scott, that is really a different conversation. Both players will thrive or falter for the same reasons. 

 

On 10/18/2022 at 3:52 PM, ThomasRoane said:

3) There are other players on the team with families to support and mouths to feed.  They all wanna get paid.  If you want the good ones to stick around long term, then RR needs to prove to them that he hasn't given up on the season.  Only 35% of the season has been played.  So, while we may think the season is over RR can never take that approach if he wants some of the good players to want to remain with the team.  Otherwise, the team will continue to lose players who just want out of the clown show that this franchise has been.  There are also incentives built into some contracts.  It would be wrong to prevent players from reaching their bonuses because the coaching staff thinks the season is not salvageable.  

 

I get the senitiment but sorry this is a business. The coaches have to be thinking what's best for the team now AND long term. They already know what TH is and isn't. Get as much look at Howell as possible so you know for sure what your needs are in thw offseason. Don't get me wrong, I have no expectations for Howell outside a better #2 than TH and that's likely the high side. But until he plays against live fire they will not know. And the veterans know this. And the good ones will want the team to do whats best for the entire team not focus on individual bonuses and crap. They want to win championships. So whatever gets them closer, or at least has the chance of getting them closer is what they will want the team to do. 

[zCommander]

Audio dump from JP and Ron - 1 on 1 interview from this week. The interview starts at the 46:15 mark. 

 

JP: I'm not much of a numbers guy you are getting ready to coach your 41st game and just about averging a QB change every 4 games. How do you handle that? 

 

Ron: Well, the hard part more than anything else it's it's about continuity you would love continuity you really would because if it makes a huge difference it does but you know we've gotta keep that next man up mentality I mean we're on our fifth Center for the most part so we've had to keep that next man up mentality you just have to continue with that and just continue to work and and and hopefully things settle in and at some point we get we get that groove going.

 

JP: Taylor's coming back now everybody saw a healthy dose of Heineken last year basically got to start the whole season how can he be better for you now?

 

Ron: Well I think in a moment where we are in in time I think it it'll be a little advantageous we'll do you know obviously the game plan is gonna be tailored to Taylor to what he does best with his strengths are and a lot of guys are familiar with that.

 

JP: How do you balance and it was understandable at the time but saying we need to upgrade the quarterback and publicly and now it's back with Heinicke ?

 

Ron: Well just because the one thing about Taylor you know what he is you know what he can give you you know he he's he's a solid quarterback gives you an opportunity to to to to win to win half your games minimum so you feel good about who he is what you want you wanna get the good half [Ron chuckles as he says this indicating he wants the good half of Taylor] you know, but I do think with him there's gonna be a shot in the arm just cause the guys know who he is and I said earlier press conferences that underdog mentality and he plays like it and sometimes that can be infectious and and if we can get a good role going right and and that's what we're hoping for this working for.

 

JP: What do you talk to Taylor about because it's it's there's so much unknown with Carson's injury right like timelines all of it even if he lands on IR. Hey Taylor we need you to come in and keep this thing afloat or Taylor we gotta go on a run and it gonna starts now? 

 

Ron: Exactly that's exactly what it is I mean he and I have a nice little conversation I say you know this offense you know how things go take it make it your own you do what you do and if you have to correct something you're gonna make something go go for it lead.

 

JP: Players say or do anything when he came out with the ones?

 

Ron: Yeah there's some hugging going on from the offensive alignment and also welcome back stuff I mean it's you know all all good spirit and stuff like that.
 

 

I hate reading between the line but the OL hugging Taylor? Is that a telling sign how they view Wentz as the QB? You all can debate on that. Will see how it actually translates on the field come Sunday. 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by zCommander

[RandyHolt]

I am shirley not the only to remember our OL starting blocking much better for Kirk than RG3. From the first snap. Hive Five!

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I am shirley 

 

If you say so. We don't/wont judge. 

[tmandoug1]

Don't call me Shirley!

[NickyJ]

Of all the things I've read in my life, I think "The offensive line was trying to get Wentz killed because they weren't hugging him" is pretty far up the list of the most unique things.

 

To me, it's something a lot simpler. They know they're going to get him killed, so they're hugging him ahead of time to let him know that it was never personal.

[Cooleyfan1993]

3 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Of all the things I've read in my life, I think "The offensive line was trying to get Wentz killed because they weren't hugging him" is pretty far up the list of the most unique things.

 

To me, it's something a lot simpler. They know they're going to get him killed, so they're hugging him ahead of time to let him know that it was never personal.

Or, they’re hugging him as a way of saying “we’re sorry, we know there are plenty of other teams you’d rather be playing for than this dumpster fire”

Edited October 20, 2022 by Cooleyfan1993
Forgot quotation marks at the end

[wit33]

First call should be RO keeper and let Heineke lower his shoulder.

[KDawg]

I… The OL is hugging him?

 

Is this kind of thing supposed to make us feel good? 
 

And the QBR thing is just odd. Wentz had a game that was better than we’ve seen in years with a healthy OL, but his QBR wasn’t good. This is the issue with stats. They lie if you let them. 
 

Wentz wasn’t great. He got gunshy, saw ghosts, rushed throws when he didn’t have to, poor accuracy at times, low mobility… but it’s like people forgot that Trai Turner and Andrew Norwell were protecting him. Oh, and Nick Martin. C’mon, folks. 

[zCommander]

31 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I… The OL is hugging him?

 

Is this kind of thing supposed to make us feel good? 

 

Not us. I am pretty sure it is supposed to make Taylor feel safe and protected, well at least they will try. We shall see. 

 

 

[skinny21]

I’m curious how much of an impact 2nd team reps will have on Howell (and the staff’s comfort/trust in him), and if time off helps Wentz get more comfortable with the O.

 

I’m glad the oline was hugging TH.  Trying to make it any more than it is - that they like the dude/are happy for him - is pretty lame.

 

BTW, averaging a qb change every 4 games?!  Good grief.  Who had money on Heinicke getting the longevity award?

[Est.1974]

I’ve been a big supporter of Rivera and I’m trying really hard to avoid it look like I’m now kicking him every time he speaks. However, what the Hell is he on about these days, the guy has been totally consumed into the Washington way and has lot the plot.

 

Oh and Howell should be starting. I’m not sure why that would even be a debate.

[tmandoug1]

8 hours ago, KDawg said:

I… The OL is hugging him?

 

Is this kind of thing supposed to make us feel good? 
 

And the QBR thing is just odd. Wentz had a game that was better than we’ve seen in years with a healthy OL, but his QBR wasn’t good. This is the issue with stats. They lie if you let them. 
 

Wentz wasn’t great. He got gunshy, saw ghosts, rushed throws when he didn’t have to, poor accuracy at times, low mobility… but it’s like people forgot that Trai Turner and Andrew Norwell were protecting him. Oh, and Nick Martin. C’mon, folks. 

I was listening to NFL on Seriusxm and they were talking about his average time to throw was 2.5 seconds which they considered to be extremely fast. Now I don't know if they meant only on the 23 sacks or overall.  232 passing attempts avgs out to 38 per game with about 4 sacks per game. That doesn't include the knock downs or pressures which I dont know how to find. That doesn't seem like good protection to me. I'm sure holding the ball to long and other things come into play that I'm not aware of. But my naked eye tells me he was  under duress alot of the time. But I preach O line every single year and we always seem to think we can get away with plug and play of low end dudes. 

 

Peace

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, KDawg said:

And the QBR thing is just odd. Wentz had a game that was better than we’ve seen in years with a healthy OL, but his QBR wasn’t good. This is the issue with stats. They lie if you let them. 

It's interesting, last year, QBR really liked Wentz.  Ended up 9th in the league over the entire season.  And he's been in the top 12 QBR every season except 2020.

 

This year, it's picking on him. 

 

In the game against the Titans, he went 25/38 (65%), 359 yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT, a whopping 9.4 yards per attempt, took 3 sacks for 17 yards.  Sure, the one pick was a bad one, and he didn't get the ball in the endzone in 3 chances.  He should get criticized for that.  But his passer rating was 102.9 (and I get it, passer rating is very passe), his QBR was 45.7.  

 

He also hit at least 2 deep bombs in the game, maybe more, I can't remember, I just know he hit DBrown twice.  

 

I'd honestly take this game every single week from a QB, minus the fact they didn't score on the last possession.  And THIS Is worth a 45.7 QBR?  

 

There's a saying, Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.  Sometimes statistics lie.  This is one of those cases.  Wentz had a pretty damn good game until the last 3 plays.  Hell, he even got them down the field to be in position to take the shots. 

 

I said it the entire off-season, and I still believe it based on what we saw when the offense was moving against Jax, Detroit second half, and even the Titans, you can win a lot of games with Wentz IF you manage the game properly:

 

1. DO NOT TRY TO BE A RUN FIRST TEAM AND PUT HIM IN KNOWN 3RD DOWN PASSING SITUATIONS.  He is not good at run-run try and pick up 3rd and 6.  That's not his bag. The Colts tried it last year, and it didn't work, and they have a better running game than we do.  It's a recipe for awful.

 

2. Use a lot of motion and quick game to get the ball out of his hands quickly on early downs.  He's actually pretty good at quick game.  If you call a quick throw, he typically throws quickly.  Use that as an extension of the run-game, and get the ball to McKissic, Gibson, the TEs, Samuel a whole bunch on early downs.  They did this in Jax.  Especially to Samuel, and it worked really well.

 

3. Run the ball in advantageous down/distance situations.  Occasionally on first down, but also on 2nd and medium to short, third and short. 

 

4. Take deep shots often, but NOT in known passing situations.  So play-action deep shots on early downs.

 

5. Use no-huddle and hurry-up which generally forces defenses to play more "normal" coverages and blitz less.  There's a reason why Peyton Manning and Tom Brady love hurry-up.  It makes everything easier.  You don't even have to snap the ball more quickly, just get to the line to call the play.  We seem to be allergic to this, and have been since .. forever  Literally forever.  Gibbs never even used it during the glory years. Going back to the 60's and 70's, it wasn't a thing.  It wasn't Norv's thing, Marty's Spurrier's or Zorn's.  It surprised me we didn't see more of it from Shanahan, because they used it in Denver with Elway at times.  Jay didn't use it.  And now Ron/Scott don't.  It's baffling.  

 

6. Do everything possible to stay out of known passing situations where the defense knows it's a pass, and can tee-off and bring pressure.  

 

If you do those things, you can have success.  I will caveat, it's almost impossible to have any success when the interior of the OL is on ice skates and pushed directly back into the QB on every play.  No matter who's playing QB or what you're trying to do.  So, in the first half of Detroit, most of the Eagles and Dallas games, when the OL was a complete mess, I don't think Tom Brady could have made much of that mess.  Better?  Absolutely.  But not up to "good."

 

The problem is the interior of the OL completely disintegrated with Rouiller and Schweitzer going out, Turner not being able to play, Norwell not being very good, and Martin at center.  It was just a debacle.  And when that happened, Scott Turner had no idea really what to do.  So, he did the thing he shouldn't have done, which is run the ball for no yards and put Wentz into known passing situations where the DL could pin their ears back, they could blitz, and go after Wentz.

 

I think it was the Eagles game, the average yards to go on third down was something like 11.4.  That's madness.  That shows you have absolutely no freaking idea what the hell you are doing from an offensive coordination perspective. 

 

I've liked Scott Turner more than most, but he's had a really rough start to the season.  

 

Wentz gets blame for missing open guys, hanging onto the ball too long at times, and just generally taking an extra beat to recognize what he is seeing.  He's not anywhere close to a perfect QB.  He's just "ok." to "good."  He has his flaws.  But he was the best available option, and if you're going to bring him in, you've got to use him correctly, or what the hell is the point?   

 

But with the injuries and player personnel decisions on the OL, and complete lack of understanding of how to run the offense, it's put him in a position which he is not suited for.

 

And now he's hurt.  Why?  Because he was trying to throw with a guy in his lap and hit his hand on a helmet or arm. 

 

I wish TH the best.  But he's got limited talent and ability, so any DC worth their salt will figure him out and make life massively difficult.  Though, the good news is Barry is a moron, so he might have 300 yards this week.  

[skinny21]

@Voice_of_ReasonI don’t know how they score QBR.  If I was nitpicking that game, he/they scored 17, punted 6 times, had 1 turnover on downs, and a pick in the redzone (and failed on a game winning drive), so maybe they weigh some of those things pretty heavily?  Oh, and 3rd down conversions - I wanna say Wentz was 1 for 11 along with a pick?  Now those things aren’t great obviously, but to your point, he did a lot of good that game.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

@Voice_of_ReasonI don’t know how they score QBR.  If I was nitpicking that game, he/they scored 17, punted 6 times, had 1 turnover on downs, and a pick in the redzone (and failed on a game winning drive), so maybe they weigh some of those things pretty heavily?  Oh, and 3rd down conversions - I wanna say Wentz was 1 for 11 along with a pick?  Now those things aren’t great obviously, but to your point, he did a lot of good that game.

Yeah, down/distance, situational stuff all counts.  

 

But it seems like in this instance, the negative stuff was mostly offset by the positive stuff.  

 

There is no one good metric for grading QBs.  

 

I also thought Scott Turner had an awful game plan. 

[mistertim]

15 hours ago, zCommander said:

I hate reading between the line but the OL hugging Taylor? Is that a telling sign how they view Wentz as the QB? You all can debate on that. Will see how it actually translates on the field come Sunday. 

 

 

I have to admit it's kind of funny how you intentionally threw out a grenade of TH silliness while simultaneously trying to pretend like you're not the one who threw it or that you didn't know it was a grenade, with the "You all can debate on that" schtick.

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by mistertim

[NeverSurrender]

16 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yep. Anybody who can't understand how a noodle armed QB effects the entire offense and has absolutely no logic or reason, just emotion and hope.  

 

Emotion and hope never won anything.  

To suggest the defense dosent have to cover more then 10 yards down the field is frankly unreasonable.  I know your exaggerating but the guy plays in the NFL.  He can damn sure throw the ball better then anyone you know and there is an entire season of video evidence of him doing just that.  Also: animosity and hate never won anything either, you should turn that towards the owner and away from guys like TH.

[ClaytoAli]

 

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

2 minutes ago, ClaytoAli said:

 

Dang it. I thought Jahan would be back on Sunday. I don't feel very confident after seeing that video.

[NeverSurrender]

15 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I am shirley not the only to remember our OL starting blocking much better for Kirk than RG3. From the first snap. Hive Five!

I have said this before, I know for a fact that they hated RG3 and they loved Kirk.  I have/had a source that played on the Oline.  This type of thing happens.  I do hope thats not the case here though. Yes I hope they block better and generally get better.