The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

He's a bargain, and one of the best backups in the league, if he wasn't then the Commanders would just cut him. 

Nobody cares. Were arguing if hes a bargain or overpaid back up now? Lol

[redskinss]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Nobody cares. Were arguing if hes a bargain or overpaid back up now? Lol

I'm guessing after that long, clear and well thought out reply, v.o.r. read the response, let out a big sigh and said to themselves "it just isn't worth it"

 

You should probably do the same.

 

[88Comrade2000]

TH isn’t a backup. He’s the backup, backup. 3rd string at best.

[Koolblue13]

51 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I'm guessing after that long, clear and well thought out reply, v.o.r. read the response, let out a big sigh and said to themselves "it just isn't worth it"

 

You should probably do the same.

 

I've been doing pretty good not engaging the Heini Holers, but it still frustrates me.

[zCommander]

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ron has also said "we don't have an NFL QB on the roster" when we only had Heinicke, so there is that too.

 

Really? Ron said this before getting Wentz, "Based on what he showed us last year, he's a guy that deserves an opportunity more than anything else," Rivera said on Heinicke.

15 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

And careful with the 40 QB thing. Those are hive guys questioning that. 

 

First of all, you have selective memory, it was one of you guys who actually said to me Ron looked at 40+ QB including Luck which meant he didn't think highly of TH. Might want to remember what people say first. I already knew about the QB search. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

All the media negativity on Wentz I'll keep saying I like.   Hopefully its fuel for him.  Supposedly he's ultra competitive. 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 hours ago, redskinss said:

I'm guessing after that long, clear and well thought out reply, v.o.r. read the response, let out a big sigh and said to themselves "it just isn't worth it"

 

You should probably do the same.

 

Yeah, I had a realization after that reply.  It's like taking a flat-earther, putting them in a SpaceX rocket ship, giving them a ride to space, allowing them to see the spherical nature of the earth, splashing down, and then having them say, with complete conviction, "The world is still perfectly flat."  

 

My issue had absolutely nothing to do with TH as a backup, it is entirely the "He's a bargain and therefore we can sign more players" bit that I was correcting.

 

Given the definition of Bargain, this just isn't factual in light of the fact he's compensate as a middle compensation backup QB.   But, I guess if you say something enough times forcefully, you can try and talk it into existence. Shrug.  

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

14 hours ago, zCommander said:

Really? Ron said this before getting Wentz, "Based on what he showed us last year, he's a guy that deserves an opportunity more than anything else," Rivera said on Heinicke

This is true.  He started off with the "4 paths to a franchise QB" which were:

- Already on the roster

- Trade

- FA

- Draft

 

Then he laughed when Sheehan asked about needing a starting QB, and at the combine, he forget the first option and had to correct himself.

 

Also, given that they looked absolutely everywhere, including seeing if the ghost of Bart Starr could still come back and play, it was pretty evident he, and Mayhew, were giving Taylor his due for what he did during last season.  There is no reason to trash a guy who's on your team.  AND there was always the chance they couldn't get any guy, so they might have had to have gone back to TH.  In that scenario, having a quote out there from January saying, "yeah, he can't play"  wouldn't have been ideal.

 

Mayhew I think really said it best, first he said all kinds of good things about Taylor.  He said, "He basically got a field promotion."  Which is so true. Fitz was the starter, only played 16 snaps.  Then, at a scrum at the combine, he said, "We have a 2."  

 

They have viewed TH as a backup since the moment he got here.  He was forced into action due to injury in the playoffs and after Fitz got hurt.  Last year, they signed him to a backup QB contract.  They have always viewed him as a backup.  Whether he is a good backup or an average backup, who cares.  He's a backup.  When your backup plays, you typically lose more than you win.

 

The ONLY 2 backups I can think of (and I will freely admit there are probably others I just can't think of them) who were forced into action and ended up being wildly successful are Tom Brady (Bledsoe got hurt) and Kurt Warner (Trent Green blew out his ACL in preseason).  MAYBE you could put Big Ben on the list, he was forced in as a rookie due to injury, but he was a 1st round rookie, he was going to play eventually.  I'm racking my brain to try and think of other guys who got an opportunity due to an injury, and then became long time starters.  Not even HOF or probowl players, just starters.  Maybe somebody else can think of another one..

 

OOOHHH, I thought of one who had significant short term success then went back to sucking: Nick Foles.  Wentz went down, Foles stepped in for 3 regular season games and the playoffs, and played well and the Eagles won a SB.  Then he went back to sucking.  If you want to go WAY back, Jeff Hostleter subbed in for an injured Phil Simms in the SB. Then he went back to sucking.  

 

But the fact is, TH is a backup, has been a backup, and always will be a backup.  Which is fine.  If Wentz goes down, the season is most likely lost one way or the other.  

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

All the media negativity on Wentz I'll keep saying I like.   Hopefully its fuel for him.  Supposedly he's ultra competitive. 

 

 

 

@Califan007 The Constipated

[Warhead36]

Wentz is a great deep ball passer. That's why I wanna pair him with more downfield weapons. Go get Olave.

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Wentz is a great deep ball passer. That's why I wanna pair him with more downfield weapons. Go get Olave.

One of the reasons Wentz is a great deep ball passer is he’s slower to get off of the deep ball than some would like.  Which is where the “doesn’t take the layups” comment comes from.

 

Personally, I prefer the QB to push the ball down the field than just settle for “what’s immediately there” constantly.  Cousins and Smith did this and it drove me somewhat nuts.  
 

I am ok with Wentz trying to stretch the field.  If that results in a few more picks, and a few sacks, I’m ok with it as long as they complete a reasonably high percentage of deep passes.

 

Also, I think his ability to throw deep accurately will greatly help Brown.  He was drafted because of his deep ball skills.  And then they had a QB who didn’t throw an accurate deep ball.  Which is one of the reasons he struggled

[RWJ]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Also, I think his ability to throw deep accurately will greatly help Brown.  He was drafted because of his deep ball skills.  And then they had a QB who didn’t throw an accurate deep ball.  Which is one of the reasons he struggled

👍

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

@Califan007 The Constipated

 

I'm not sure why you mentioned me (or whatever it's called by kids these days lol), but ok....

[zCommander]

7 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But the fact is, TH is a backup, has been a backup, and always will be a backup.  Which is fine.  If Wentz goes down, the season is most likely lost one way or the other.  

 

I think what you need to do is get this idea out of your head about what I said of TH. I said, repeatedly, if push come to shove you can always start TH again and then get your franchise QB in the draft of 2023. Then they got Wentz. If it was Turbs then yes that would have been stupid since TH is better than Turbs. I don't like Turbs. Would have been fine with Mariota though. 

 

If Wentz fail that is still the plan. Draft a QB in 2023. TH is signed until the end of 22. If the coaches want to resign him again next year as a backup I won't have any problem with that as well. Some of you might and can't apparently stand him. Which really baffles me. 

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

I'm not sure why you mentioned me (or whatever it's called by kids these days lol), but ok....

I said he had the best deep ball the other day. You disagreed. 

 

And just because you're really really really old, doesn't make me a kid. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I said he had the best deep ball the other day. You disagreed. 

 

And just because you're really really really old, doesn't make me a kid. 

 

Total value on deep plays he's not in the top 5, though...

 

And I'm not old, dammit! lol

 

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I think what you need to do is get this idea out of your head about what I said of TH. I said, repeatedly, if push come to shove you can always start TH again and then get your franchise QB in the draft of 2023. Then they got Wentz. If it was Turbs then yes that would have been stupid since TH is better than Turbs. I don't like Turbs. Would have been fine with Mariota though. 

 

If Wentz fail that is still the plan. Draft a QB in 2023. TH is signed until the end of 22. If the coaches want to resign him again next year as a backup I won't have any problem with that as well. Some of you might and can't apparently stand him. Which really baffles me. 

And literally everybody has said that there was no push or shove that could happen where you could start TH this year.  Period.  Is he better than Trubisky?  I'd say no. But I'd also say you might be arguing about which is better, being hung or shot.  I'm not a Trubisky fan either.  However, I'd also say that Trubisky has a lot more upside.  He was the second pick in the draft for a reason.  So, if that was a last resort, Trubisky would be the starter over TH 100 times out of 100.  

 

Almost the same exact argument exists for Mariota.  

 

There was zero, zilch, nada chance Ron and company were going into the year knowing they had a ceiling of 6-8 wins with TH this year.  Once teams really got a book on him, he was pretty terrible the remainder of the season.  Unless they felt they could replicate either the Colts or Titan's running game, which is doubtful, the offense was going to completely grind to a halt with TH.  You would see a lot more of what we saw against the Giants in the finale (a game they won) where TH was dreadful (9-18 for 120 yards, a QBR of 5).  And that was against a BAD team who had mostly given up.  Why did they win?  They ran the ball 37 times for 226 yards and got 3 takeaways.  TH was absolutely atrocious the entire game.  And that was the lasting impression on the coaches and FO.  They knew they couldn't have that kind of performance in 2022.  

 

This team is too well coached and has too much talent to bottom out at 2-15 with literally any QB.  They will get to 5-7 wins almost no matter what.  So, if they wanted to try and ride out 2022 with TH, they'd end up almost exactly where they are this year, and they would still be no closer to a franchise QB, because they would still have to trade up to get one, and they'd still be stuck in the middle of the draft.  

 

They had to make a move, any move, this year to try and break the cycle.  

 

I have repeatedly said I have absolutely no issue with TH in the role he is meant for: Backup QB.  If he's the backup, that's fine. The thing with ALL backup QBs: you don't want to ever see them play.  But they need to be able to finish a game or make a spot start or two.  I think TH can do that.  I think more than 2 starts, he's toast.  But, frankly, so are all the other backup QBs in the league.  So who really cares?  He's fine as a backup.  I'd be completely fine if they signed a different backup QB, or drafted one.  I really, honestly don't care that much about the backup QB.  If he's on the roster, fine.  If he's not, fine.  I just don't care that much one way or the other.

[kingdaddy]

57 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I think what you need to do is get this idea out of your head about what I said of TH. I said, repeatedly, if push come to shove you can always start TH again and then get your franchise QB in the draft of 2023. Then they got Wentz. If it was Turbs then yes that would have been stupid since TH is better than Turbs. I don't like Turbs. Would have been fine with Mariota though. 

 

If Wentz fail that is still the plan. Draft a QB in 2023. TH is signed until the end of 22. If the coaches want to resign him again next year as a backup I won't have any problem with that as well. Some of you might and can't apparently stand him. Which really baffles me. 

And because they hate him they don't want to hear any logic or about anything positive TH brings to the organization. Again, if TH sucks as bad as some on this board says he does then why are guys like Allen, Montez gone and he's still here? Why don't the Commanders just cut him? Because he won 7 games last year playing in his first real NFL season against a 1st place schedule with several starters out and a COVID influx that sidelined 26 players during the stretch run in the midst of a 4 game winning streak. He led the team to wins over the defending champion Bucs and beat Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan and Derek Carr in addition to Tom Brady. Guys who do that don't suck and have value in the league regardless of his limitations. The team believes in TH and that's good enough for me to believe in him too. TH deserved more support than he got last year too from the fumbling Gibson and the defense. If Wentz gets them both to step up he'll likely be fine. 

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

And because they hate him they don't want to hear any logic or about anything positive TH brings to the organization. Again, if TH sucks as bad as some on this board says he does then why are guys like Allen, Montez gone and he's still here? 

Dude because those guys suck too lolol

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Dude because those guys suck too lolol

I get that there isn't a lower bar than Commander QB, but being the best of the busts is hardly worth planting a flag over.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

TH deserved more support than he got last year too from the fumbling Gibson and the defense. If Wentz gets them both to step up he'll likely be fine. 

The audacity to say something like this…

 

So when Taylor was throwing guys into the tent, or throwing 15 picks, or running into sacks, or not being able to hit the broad side of a barn stalling the offense out….that was Gibson and the defenses fault?

 

There are reasons that TH was widely rated among the worst in the league by nearly all metrics used to judge QB play, and Gibson’s fumbles and the defense aren’t on the list.

 

 

[zCommander]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And literally everybody has said that there was no push or shove that could happen where you could start TH this year.  Period.  Is he better than Trubisky?  I'd say no. But I'd also say you might be arguing about which is better, being hung or shot.  I'm not a Trubisky fan either.  However, I'd also say that Trubisky has a lot more upside.  He was the second pick in the draft for a reason.  So, if that was a last resort, Trubisky would be the starter over TH 100 times out of 100.  

 

Almost the same exact argument exists for Mariota.  

 

You really don't understand how push comes to shove really means then. if all else fails then... Got it! As for Turbs being selected 2nd in the draft doesn't mean jack ****. Plenty of QBs have not lived up to their draft position status. But sure you go ahead and make it look like it is a fact in your head. 

 

  

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

There was zero, zilch, nada chance Ron and company were going into the year knowing they had a ceiling of 6-8 wins with TH this year.  Once teams really got a book on him, he was pretty terrible the remainder of the season.  Unless they felt they could replicate either the Colts or Titan's running game, which is doubtful, the offense was going to completely grind to a halt with TH.  You would see a lot more of what we saw against the Giants in the finale (a game they won) where TH was dreadful (9-18 for 120 yards, a QBR of 5).  And that was against a BAD team who had mostly given up.  Why did they win?  They ran the ball 37 times for 226 yards and got 3 takeaways.  TH was absolutely atrocious the entire game.  And that was the lasting impression on the coaches and FO.  They knew they couldn't have that kind of performance in 2022. 

 

Again you have no idea what Ron would have done if he wasn't going to get anyone to come here or sign. He would have selected a QB in the draft and hoped he would start and if not then TH. Pretty simple really. But you go ahead and cross your arms and pout all you want. As for the running game - Ron said the reason they won those 4 games in a row was because they ran 6 more plays in each of those 4 games. You don't to replicate anyone. You just had to run more run plays and that was Gibson. Ron has to be pretty dumb as a coach if he is going to only see the LAST game to mae evaluation on a player and not even look at the other 15 games. Good thing you are not the coach...lol

 

  

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This team is too well coached and has too much talent to bottom out at 2-15 with literally any QB.  They will get to 5-7 wins almost no matter what.  So, if they wanted to try and ride out 2022 with TH, they'd end up almost exactly where they are this year, and they would still be no closer to a franchise QB, because they would still have to trade up to get one, and they'd still be stuck in the middle of the draft.  

 

They had to make a move, any move, this year to try and break the cycle.

 

That is not correct. Easier schedule and hopefully half of the team not out due to injury and covid and Samuel actually bein gon the field for more than two snaps. So in reality what you are saying is based on how you feel about last year instead of the possibility of a new year. Teams move up all of the times to get their guy. Not trivial at all as you make it seem out to be. Sure sounds like you are not the voice of reason at all. 

 

There was no cycle to break. Not sure why you keep on saying that. You make it seem like it has been going on for years with TH. 

  

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I have repeatedly said I have absolutely no issue with TH in the role he is meant for: Backup QB.  If he's the backup, that's fine. The thing with ALL backup QBs: you don't want to ever see them play.  But they need to be able to finish a game or make a spot start or two.  I think TH can do that.  I think more than 2 starts, he's toast.  But, frankly, so are all the other backup QBs in the league.  So who really cares?  He's fine as a backup.  I'd be completely fine if they signed a different backup QB, or drafted one.  I really, honestly don't care that much about the backup QB.  If he's on the roster, fine.  If he's not, fine.  I just don't care that much one way or the other.

 

It doesn't matter how many games TH plays as a backup as long as you can get a win. And if it comes to a point where he is needed more than 2 games then also there is nothing wrong with that. Even if you get another backup QB they would still have to beat out TH for the #2 spot. If they do then that is more power to them. Again nothing wrong with that. 

[LD0506]

So just for clarification, is this what we're going to do until the season starts and/or Carson goes careening down a waterslide?

 

Just asking so I can schedule my time accordingly.....

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, LD0506 said:

Just asking so I can schedule my time accordingly.....

 

TH might lock himself out the house again first. It could go either way.

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, zCommander said:

You really don't understand how push comes to shove really means then. if all else fails then... Got it! As for Turbs being selected 2nd in the draft doesn't mean jack ****. Plenty of QBs have not lived up to their draft position status. But sure you go ahead and make it look like it is a fact in your head. 

I really do understand what "push comes to shove" means.  And I also know that there was no way the organization was going to let push come to shove.  TH was never an option for 2022 as a starter.  Ever.  Ever Ever Ever.  Not even as a last resort.  If they had completely struck out with trades and FA, they would STILL have signed somebody like Dalton who would have started over TH to bridge to the rookie they drafted.  

 

There was literally no scenario under which the team was going to trot TH out there on opening day.  None.  The push was never going to come to that shove.  

3 hours ago, zCommander said:

Again you have no idea what Ron would have done if he wasn't going to get anyone to come here or sign. He would have selected a QB in the draft and hoped he would start and if not then TH. Pretty simple really. But you go ahead and cross your arms and pout all you want. As for the running game - Ron said the reason they won those 4 games in a row was because they ran 6 more plays in each of those 4 games. You don't to replicate anyone. You just had to run more run plays and that was Gibson. Ron has to be pretty dumb as a coach if he is going to only see the LAST game to mae evaluation on a player and not even look at the other 15 games. Good thing you are not the coach...lol

Wrong again.  They would have signed somebody.  They might have had to massively overpay for them, but they would have gotten somebody.  My guess is they would have eventually gotten Trubisky or Mariota, but they might have had to pay a 20% premium for either.  If not, it would have been somebody in the Dalton level.  

 

I'd also like to remind you that in that 4 game winning streak, they won 2 of those games 17-15, and in the Seattle game, went something like 5 drives in a row without a first down in the second half.  Ron an say anything he wants.  The team was damn lucky to win those 4 games because they had to rely entirely on the defense and the running game.  When you have to virtually bench your QB while leaving him in the game, that's a pretty key indication you don't have a QB who can start in the NFL for a full season.  

 

It's also pretty clear by comments that Ron and Turner have made that TH does not possess the qualities they want in a starting QB: Size, quick-twitch and arm strength to stretch the field vertically and horizontally. They have said this over and over and over and over. The only way you can't have picked up on it is if you don't want to.  

 

It wasn't just the last game which was a real problem.  However, the reason I highlighted the last game is because you kindof have to give TH the benefit of the doubt for a couple games where the team was ravaged by COVID.  So I just exclude those entirely from the evaluation.  He was still dreadful.  But they also weren't playing with a full deck.  So I think they evaluated the 4 game winning streak games, where TH was very good in one (Tampa), average in one, and pretty bad in 2, even though they still won.  Then you skip ahead to when the team was back, and he was dreadful again.  That's enough of a sample size, along with just watching the games with your eyes, to tell you he can't be any part of the starting solution in 2022.  

3 hours ago, zCommander said:

That is not correct. Easier schedule and hopefully half of the team not out due to injury and covid and Samuel actually bein gon the field for more than two snaps. So in reality what you are saying is based on how you feel about last year instead of the possibility of a new year. Teams move up all of the times to get their guy. Not trivial at all as you make it seem out to be. Sure sounds like you are not the voice of reason at all. 

 

There was no cycle to break. Not sure why you keep on saying that. You make it seem like it has been going on for years with TH. 

I never play the schedule game.  Every year you have teams who you think are going to be great, and they end up stinking, and teams that you think will stink which end up being very good.  

The cycle I'm talking about is we are consistently somewhere between 7-9 wins, and have been since basically 2014.  We haven't cracked 10 wins, and the only year they really bottomed out and won 3 games was 2019.  They're always mediocre. Which puts them in the same middle-of-the-pack area of the draft.  

 

Teams do move up to get their guy, not all the time, but fairly regularly.  How many of those trades have actually worked out vs. how many have bused?  It tilts massively towards the busted.  A few do work out.  The issue is when you trade up, you are trading multiple assets, and if the player busts, it's much more costly.  

 

I felt last year the team, with Fitz, was a 10 win team.   I feel this year, with Wentz, they are about a 10-11 win team.  Most of the team is the same.  Wentz is better than Fitz.  

 

The issue is, Fitz played 16 plays last year, and the backup QB played the rest of the season.  And played well at times, and REALLY badly at others.  Which is exactly what you would expect from a backup QB.  

 

What I'm saying is there was just no way in God's green earth Ron was going to knowingly sign up for that ride again.  None. You can quote what you want, you can misconstrue facts all you want, but there was just no way Ron was going to try and play another 17 games with a QB who can't execute the full offense.  

3 hours ago, zCommander said:

It doesn't matter how many games TH plays as a backup as long as you can get a win. And if it comes to a point where he is needed more than 2 games then also there is nothing wrong with that. Even if you get another backup QB they would still have to beat out TH for the #2 spot. If they do then that is more power to them. Again nothing wrong with that. 

The win rate of games in the NFL by backup QBs is not very good.  The 2 games is really not so much about TH as it is he's a backup.  When the backup plays, teams don't win that much. And the more they play, the more they lose.  If this wasn't the case, the backup would be a starter.  Typically, if any backup needs to play more than 2 games, you're sunk.

 

I did think of another exception to that rule. Steve Young.  He was backing up Joe Montana, who got hurt, and then took the starting QB job from the (at the time) GOAT.  

 

So, there are exceptions.  But not many.  

 

I'm perfectly happy with TH as a backup.  I just don't care one way or the other.  If he's the backup, he's the backup.  If he's beaten out, he's beaten out, if he's on the roster, fine, if he's not, that's fine too.  I just don't care any which way.  As long as there is no expectation of him playing.  And I'm 99% sure that's exactly the way Ron and Scott, and Martin for that matter, all view TH.  Great guy to have on the roster, knows the system, can step in in a pinch and not soil himself, can't start for very long because will be exposed.