The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, Alexa said:

I'd gladly take Mariota, the cap space and the draft capital over Wentz and it's not even close. This team isn't good enough to be giving away draft picks and valuable cap space for Carson Wentz. 

We didn't even talk to him and he went where he wanted to go. Very little chance we were his top choice.

[Skinsinparadise]

Throwback to last year's QB thread

 

 

 

[Redskins 2021]

A big problem for us was who would actually be willing to come here to play.

 

Wentz was the best we could get. If we waited till he was released he would not have signed here probably the Steelers.

 

Would Mayfield been better? Maybe, but at the time he was not available. I don't think Ryan was available at the time and I dont think the Falcons would trade him to us out of respect for his service to the Falcons. 

 

I don't think we could afford to wait because we are one of the least liked destinations in the nfl by players. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We didn't even talk to him and he went where he wanted to go. Very little chance we were his top choice.

 

Ron talked to 40+ QB and thought of Luck too. How are you so sure we didn't talk to Mariota?

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Alexa]

aren't those highlights from 2017? that's almost 5 years ago. sadly that guy isn't walking through the commanders doors. if he was still playing at that level he'd still be wearing green. qb's that play at the level aren't on their 3rd team in 3 years. 

[ntotoro]

So… he’d have been great without a torn ACL and a broken neck.

 

Awesome.

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

Ron talked to 40+ QB and thought of Luck too. How are you so sure we didn't talk to Mariota?

Agreed, good question, is there a source on this?

[Koolblue13]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

He started last year with 2 broken feet and a messed up ankle too. He's gonna be pretty healthy for the fist time since 2017.

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Agreed, good question, is there a source on this?

I was under the impression the FO had a list of 40 qbs they were following up on.  I don’t remember hearing that they had spoken to/inquired about all of them, though it’s certainly possible.  Actually, thinking about it some more, I’d guess they had varying degrees of contact with many/most, maybe even all of them.  Who knows how far they got though (I’m imagining they heard a lot of “I’m sorry, he’s busy right now, may I take a message?”).

 

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

He started last year with 2 broken feet and a messed up ankle too. He's gonna be pretty healthy for the fist time since 2017.

This is my biggest concern with Wentz, and it’s not so much about him specifically (ie, whether or not he’s injury prone), but just the sheer number of qbs we’ve lost to major injury in recent times… ugh.

[RWJ]

We need a backup to Wentz and TH is not the answer, If RR and Co. keep him as the backup, I have questions about their abilities as evaluators.  Jack Caon would be an optiion. Take a look at his highlights:

 

 

[redskinss]

11 hours ago, Alexa said:

aren't those highlights from 2017? that's almost 5 years ago. sadly that guy isn't walking through the commanders doors. if he was still playing at that level he'd still be wearing green. qb's that play at the level aren't on their 3rd team in 3 years. 

Everything in this post is true.

that's why it surprises me that so many think we overpaid, if he was still playing like 2017 he not only would most likely be unavailable but if he were you'd be looking at a deshaun Watson type of package.

4 injury riddled years later we got him for pennies on the dollar.

He most likely won't gain back the form he had in 2017 but if he regains even 75 percent of it a 3 and a 2 will be the steal of the century.

Time will tell but I like that we finally have a quarterback with elite level arm talent, not arm strength, arm talent and that's what has me the most optimistic. 

[Koolblue13]

7 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I was under the impression the FO had a list of 40 qbs they were following up on.  I don’t remember hearing that they had spoken to/inquired about all of them, though it’s certainly possible.  Actually, thinking about it some more, I’d guess they had varying degrees of contact with many/most, maybe even all of them.  Who knows how far they got though (I’m imagining they heard a lot of “I’m sorry, he’s busy right now, may I take a message?”).

 

This is my biggest concern with Wentz, and it’s not so much about him specifically (ie, whether or not he’s injury prone), but just the sheer number of qbs we’ve lost to major injury in recent times… ugh.

We're reverse land though. Alex Smith never misses a game? Put him in burgundy and the leg almost pops off. Long career for Fitz? Right off the water slide. Taylor made of glass Heini? Plays in every game.

 

And careful with the 40 QB thing. Those are hive guys questioning that. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Koolblue13

[Skinsinparadise]

this was posted on the draft thread by someone else but fits here too. 

 

Good talk here about the power of surrrounding Wentz with weapons and how unique it would be.  And also about how Wentz needs to learn to chill-relax in big pressure moments-games.  Again, the deeper I dive into the Colts with Wentz, its even so with Ballard and Reich who indeed wanted to keep Wentz, their reservations seemed to be not enough check down passes when it was warranted and can he deliver in the clutch?   

 

Studying a little about what makes some players better than others in the clutch is you got to learn to relax in those big moments.  Sometimes players wanting it too much in those situations make them tighten up. 

 

Some (not in this segment) suggested that it might be good to get Wentz out of his comfort zone to bring out his best.  Reich being too much his comfort zone, still.

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

6 hours ago, RWJ said:

We need a backup to Wentz and TH is not the answer, If RR and Co. keep him as the backup, I have questions about their abilities as evaluators.  Jack Caon would be an optiion. Take a look at his highlights:

 

 

TH is a bargain backup that enables us to spend bigger at other positions. Who you gonna get that's better and cheaper than TH? It's all good to say we need another backup but when you look around the league who are you looking to bring in? This is not a defense of TH, it's the truth. Obviously TH beat out Kyle Allen or they'd have kept him right? Like him or not, TH won 7 games in his 1st season as a starter and he did it with a revolving door of WR's and TE's while his defense was struggling and his RB was fumbling games away. He's a perfect backup in that he can keep the team rolling if Wentz does go down. Would you rather have Andy Dalton? Nick Foles? A 5th round rookie? 

I'd rather see a better backup RB brought in over another backup QB. Patterson is JV material and could be replaced by lots of different backs across the league.

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

TH is a bargain backup that enables us to spend bigger at other positions. Who you gonna get that's better and cheaper than TH? It's all good to say we need another backup but when you look around the league who are you looking to bring in? This is not a defense of TH, it's the truth. Obviously TH beat out Kyle Allen or they'd have kept him right? Like him or not, TH won 7 games in his 1st season as a starter and he did it with a revolving door of WR's and TE's while his defense was struggling and his RB was fumbling games away. He's a perfect backup in that he can keep the team rolling if Wentz does go down. Would you rather have Andy Dalton? Nick Foles? A 5th round rookie? 

I'd rather see a better backup RB brought in over another backup QB. Patterson is JV material and could be replaced by lots of different backs across the league.

I'd like a QB who has the arm to get the ball down field to a wide open WR like Wentz will.  TH can't do that.  Love the guy but we need a QB with an arm and some mobility and I think Jack Caon can do that.  Respect your opinion, KD.  

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

TH is a bargain backup that enables us to spend bigger at other positions. Who you gonna get that's better and cheaper than TH? It's all good to say we need another backup but when you look around the league who are you looking to bring in? This is not a defense of TH, it's the truth. Obviously TH beat out Kyle Allen or they'd have kept him right? Like him or not, TH won 7 games in his 1st season as a starter and he did it with a revolving door of WR's and TE's while his defense was struggling and his RB was fumbling games away. He's a perfect backup in that he can keep the team rolling if Wentz does go down. Would you rather have Andy Dalton? Nick Foles? A 5th round rookie? 

I'd rather see a better backup RB brought in over another backup QB. Patterson is JV material and could be replaced by lots of different backs across the league.

 

I think Heinicke is fine as a backup, but I could see the Commanders going after someone in the mid or later rounds who has more talent and upside than Heinicke. Right now if Wentz went down and Heinicke came in the coaches would basically have to throw their game plan out the window because there are throws Wentz can make with ease that Heinicke just can't do.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Lots of back-and-forth here since I poked my head in last time. A few general thoughts:

 

- The Indy media is either dead on or completely brainwashed by the Colts.  Because they are all being asked to go on a variety of podcasts/radio shows, and they all seem to have the same talking points:

  * This was ownership driven, however everybody was on-board

  * A lot of the issues were leadership related

  * However, Wentz's numbers were basically incorrect.  He was bad at so many things, Reich had to alter his play calling.

  * "He only goes for hero plays, he doesn't take the layups."  I can't remember which Colts official said this, I think Ballard, but it could have been Irsay, but they ALL keep repeating it as fact.

  * It's going to be a wild ride with Wentz in Washington.

  * He's not a bad guy, but ... (It's like telling a girl "well, you're not unattractive...." )

 

I haven't gone back and watched all of the games from Indy.  I might do that in the next few weeks, as I think I'm going to have some free time on my hands.  But what really caught my attention is how ridiculously similar every Indy Beat Reporter and Podcaster's story has been.  It's almost like they got talking points from the team.  (Which, frankly, I think they did, in some form or fashion.)

 

I don't doubt some of it was true.  However, the "play-calling changed" thing, well, they were also riding the hottest RB in the league, so they were running the ball more.  They couch it as a negative, "Wentz was so bad, Reich changed his play calling."  Counter-point: They discovered they had the best running game in the league, and leaned on it more.  

 

I also think the Colts are trying desperately to put a good face on the fact they moved on from a guy they traded a #1 and a #3 for before the first rounder is used.  My personal belief: Irsay made the call, Ballard and Reich got on board because they had no choice.  They are presenting a unified front on the matter, which is appropriate for them to do. But I also believe there is some stretching of the truth and misleading stuff going on.  

 

- Ryan has had a better career than Wentz.  Ryan is older.  There is no chance Ryan is anything other than a stop-gap.  Indy will need to draft a guy either this year or next year to groom.  Personally, while I think Ryan THIS YEAR might have been better than Wentz (MAYBE, I'm not convinced, but it's possible), I really didn't want to trade for a QB who has a shelf life of 2 years.  

 

With Wentz, if it doesn't work out, fine.  You lost a couple 3rd round picks and some cap room, and you're looking for a guy in a couple of years.  But if it does work out, then you have your guy for a longer period of time.  With Ryan, you KNOW you're looking for the next guy immediately.  I don't like that.  My personal opinion, obviously.

 

- There is a non-zero possibility Turner's offense fits Wentz better than Reich/Pederson's offense.  And there will be different people in Wentz's ear for the first time in his professional career. Which could be a positive thing for him. 

 

- I'm going to assume they bring in another pass-catcher somehow.  Draft, FA, something.  But I think the group of pass-catchers Wentz will have here will at least be better than what he had in Indy, and maybe better than what he had a lot of the time in Philly also.  I know some have already written off Samuel, I haven't.  I want to see him produce, but by all accounts, he is recovered, he doesn't have a history of injury, and he should be able to take the role he was supposed to have last year.  McLaurin is a true #1.  

 

The combination of McLaurin, Samuel, Thomas (when he comes back), Gibson, McKissic, Brown and Sims is a very versatile group by itself.  And as I said, I think they will add a guy as well.  

 

- I also think they are going to draft a QB.  For reason I can't put my finger on, I think it's going to be Strong in the 4th.  I'm probably dead wrong about that.   Hell, they might not even have Strong on their board because of the knee issues and he has the mobility of a parking structure.  Or it's very likely somebody takes him in the late second/third.  However, with his knee issues and mobility concerns, I could see him dropping to the 4th.  Cousins dropped to the 4th, and I'd argue Cousins was a better prospect than Strong.  So you never really know.  But I think they want a guy in the draft who at least has the potential to develop into a starter, maybe be a spot starter down the road and/or backup down the road.  

 

- Mariota/Trubisky/etc: I honestly thought this was the path we were going down.  I'm really glad we have a different path. Mitch has improved his stock without playing about as much as anybody I can remember this side of John Beck.  He wasn't terrible in Chicago, but he wasn't great.  It's a real risk penciling him in as a starter.  I have more intrigue with Mariota, but that's also a risk.  He hasn't started in several years.  He was benched, and Tannehill, who's not that great either, was able to run the offense which was tailor made for Mariota better than Mariota.  The question with Mariota is, how much of it was injury, how much of it was him.  Again, to me, it's a big risk, and the likelihood is it doesn't work.  And there is no question Wentz is a MUCH MUCH MUCH safer bet than Mariota. 

 

- Actually, honestly I thought we were going to be the Panthers: strike out on absolutely everybody and have to then spend additional draft capital to move up in the draft to get either Willis or Pickett, who would both probably have been the 4th-5th prospect off of the board in other years.  I'm really, really glad we are not in their position.  

 

- Wentz vs. Garapolo: Jimmy has had more success, but he's more limited physically, and I think he's absolutely peaked.  He's also in the perfect spot for him with Kyle, and we've seen his ceiling.  But he has the charisma, leadership and intangibles while there are some questions about those attributes with Wentz.  I liked Wentz over Jimmy BEFORE the shoulder surgery.  I like him much more after.  

 

So, for me, was it worth a 3rd and a second + the cap room to not be in the position the Panthers are in?  Absolutely. Is the price a bit higher than hoped?  Sure.  Is Wentz going to prove to be "the guy?"  No idea.  But of the available options, which I put as:

Jimmy,

Wentz,

Mitch,

Mariota,

Dalton,

Winston,

Willis & Pickett (both of which I believe would require a significant trade-up),

 

I think Wentz was the best value they could have gotten.  I didn't list Watson as an option. Ryan wasn't an option until after we got Wentz and Atlanta flirted with Watson.  Wilson wasn't coming to the NFC and preferred Denver, and Rodgers wasn't going anywhere.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

41 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

TH is a bargain backup that enables us to spend bigger at other positions.

You keep saying this and you keep being wrong.  He's not a bargain.  He has an average backup QB salary cap hit.  He has a 3.6M cap hit which is top half of the league backup QB cap hit.  Between 10-14 depending on who ends up being a backup.  If they cut him, they would save $3.1M on the cap.  He only has $500k dead cap money.  

 

A bargain would be league minimum or a rookie contract, both of which would be under $1M.   

 

I don't disagree that he's a good backup, and he has value to the team specifically because he knows Scott Turner's offense really well. And I also don't think they should cut him in order to save the cap room.  Also, they still need a 3rd QB on the roster, and a camp arm.  And it would be good to keep 1 QB out of the 4 going into camp who actually knows the offense.  So, I don't think they will or should cut him to save on the cap.  

 

But this "bargain backup" thing is just factually incorrect.  He's somewhere between the 10th and 14th salary cap backup QB in the league, depending on who ends up being a backup.  Which is probably exactly where he should be. He's a middle-of-the-road backup making middle-of-the-road money.  

 

You can keep pushing this narrative all you want, but you really should come around to the fact it's actually not true.  If they REALLY wanted to, they could cut TH, save $3.1M, draft a guy to be the backup in the 4th round at an ~$500k hit, sign another low-end FA for ~$1M to be the third string and sign and UDFA for camp and possibly the practice squad.  They would come out ~$2M ahead against the cap, which would allow them to go sign a pretty good player.  THAT would be the bargain which allows you to sign other players.  Not TH's $3.6M 2022 salary cap hit.  

 

TH is on an average, middle of the pack backup QB contract.  And this is not opinion.  It's fact based on the numbers reported by Spotrac and overthecap.  

[kingdaddy]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

A bargain would be league minimum or a rookie contract, both of which would be under $1M.   

 

No, in fact you are wrong, as usual. You continue to hate on TH without acknowledging anything he has done here. Tell me how many rookies are gonna come in and be able to win games right out of the chute? Even the guys drafted this past season struggled to win games? Did any of them win more than 7 games? Only the guy from New England. TH is as solid a backup QB as there is in the NFL and makes peanuts for what he brings to the team. Even the coaching staff and management agree with me or they would've cut him over Allen. So when you tell me I'm wrong you're saying RR is too. 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

No, in fact you are wrong, as usual. You continue to hate on TH without acknowledging anything he has done here. Tell me how many rookies are gonna come in and be able to win games right out of the chute? Even the guys drafted this past season struggled to win games? Did any of them win more than 7 games? Only the guy from New England. TH is as solid a backup QB as there is in the NFL and makes peanuts for what he brings to the team. Even the coaching staff and management agree with me or they would've cut him over Allen. So when you tell me I'm wrong you're saying RR is too. 

Heinicke is a rookie now?     Holy ****. I guess Chase Daniels is a 33 yo rookie too, since he only started 5 career games. GTFO with "rookie" comparisons. 

 

Ron has also said "we don't have an NFL QB on the roster" when we only had Heinicke, so there is that too.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Koolblue13

[88Comrade2000]

Draft a qb in the later rounds and sign another college qb after the draft. Bet you they both outplay TH and Taylor’s nfl playing career ends.

Edited April 8, 2022 by 88Comrade2000

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

No, in fact you are wrong, as usual. You continue to hate on TH without acknowledging anything he has done here. Tell me how many rookies are gonna come in and be able to win games right out of the chute? Even the guys drafted this past season struggled to win games? Did any of them win more than 7 games? Only the guy from New England. TH is as solid a backup QB as there is in the NFL and makes peanuts for what he brings to the team. Even the coaching staff and management agree with me or they would've cut him over Allen. So when you tell me I'm wrong you're saying RR is too. 

My God Man.  Did you even read my post?  I don't think you did.  I think you saw that I posted it, and came up with your reply before actually reading the post.  Because you're making up things to argue about that weren't even there....  Let me explain again, and I'll try to be more clear so there's no chance of misunderstanding, assuming you read the post:

 

1. I'm not wrong about anything I said. Because just about none of it was opinion.  It was fact based on looking up numbers from Spotrak and OverTheCap.  

 

2. I'm not hating on TH.  Hating on TH would look like, "He is completely useless, he can't play, he should be cut to save the $3.1M of salary cap."  NONE OF WHICH I EVER SAID. A couple of other posted might have had "hating" posts in response to your post.  Mine was NOT that.   What I said is quoted below:

 

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I don't disagree that he's a good backup, and he has value to the team specifically because he knows Scott Turner's offense really well. And I also don't think they should cut him in order to save the cap room.  Also, they still need a 3rd QB on the roster, and a camp arm.  And it would be good to keep 1 QB out of the 4 going into camp who actually knows the offense.  So, I don't think they will or should cut him to save on the cap.  

THAT is the farthest thing from hating on TH.  And it also acknowledges his value to the team.  I said above, "I don't think they should cut him in order to save cap room."  How the H-E-double hockey sticks is that hating on TH?  

 

I am acknowledging he has use to THIS team as a backup.  I have no issues with TH as a backup.  I do think if they drafted a QB in the third or 4th, that QB might push TH for the backup spot.  But that's totally fine, and not hating on anybody.

 

I also said in almost every scenario, TH is the only player coming into camp who will know the system, and for that reason alone, they need to keep him on the team.  

 

3. He has a $3.6M cap number this year.  Unless Spotrak and OverTheCap are wrong.  This is FACT.  Not opinion. They save $3.1 against the cap if they cut him.  Again, not opinion. FACT.  

 

4. If you rank backup QB salary cap hits, that number ends up somewhere ranked 10-15.  That's also FACT.  Not opinion.  

 

5. The part of your post I replied to is that you KEEP saying the below, and I'm going to quote it again for emphasis:

 

6 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

TH is a bargain backup that enables us to spend bigger at other positions.

THIS ISN'T TRUE.  He's not a bargain backup.  He's paid middle-of-the-pack NFL Backup QB money against the cap.  THIS MEANS HE CAN'T BE A BARGAIN BY THE DEFINITION OF A BARGAIN.  He is an average NFL Backup QB being paid Average NFL Backup Money.  

 

And THIS isn't a knock on TH either.  It just is what it is.  He is being compensated commensurate with what he is.  Which is good for him AND the team.  

 

And again, I come back to my original post: I AM NOT ADVOCATING CUTTING TH.   I am not hating on TH.  

 

I am correcting a statement which you keep making which is factually incorrect.  And you can try and twist yourself into a pretzel to come up with an argument to say he is still a bargain.  But nothing you say will change the facts: He is about the ~12th highest salary ap hit for backup QBs which means he cannot be a bargain.  And his low salary is NOT enabling us to sign other players.

 

You know who is currently a bargain?  Terry McLaurin.  He has a $3m cap hit for this year as a top 10-15 receiver, where his peers are making $20M/year.  THAT is the definition of a bargain. (Editorial note, they need to extend him)  Kam Curl is a bargain.  He's making $1M against the cap this year and he's a starting safety. 

 

THOSE are bargains. 

 

TH is making $3.6 against the cap, MORE than Terry McLaurin.  And MORE than Curl. 

 

So there is NO WAY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH TH IS A BARGAIN.

 

That was my point.  That is my only point.  I hope this was clear enough.    

[kingdaddy]

He's a bargain, and one of the best backups in the league, if he wasn't then the Commanders would just cut him. 

[CommanderInTheRye]

19 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

He started last year with 2 broken feet and a messed up ankle too. He's gonna be pretty healthy for the fist time since 2017.

 

 

Agreed! He should be much more maneuvarable in the pocket this season than last.

 

Wentz's been working hard as hell rehabbing his feet in the off season and he claims they're finally as good as they were during his career year in 2017.

 

He posted these pics of his newly toned feet to his twitter account shortly before the Colts traded him...