The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Jumbo]

1 minute ago, The Consigliere said:

talk radio is the lowest, most pathetic form of analysis imaginable. 

 

It can be such a struggle between the concepts of "every voice should be heard" and "that [insert term of your choice] needs to stfu." 🤡 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

 grant the "bad team" argument forcing him to do more than he should, but at the same time I can't also grant him a free pass from what he has displayed.

Simply put he is off platform a lot, and that has consequences that are easy to identify.

 

In order to be successful in the NFL he has got to button up those mechanics and great deal from where he is right now.

 

His off platform completion rate is close to the same as Daniels (who doesn't throw off platform much) and Caleb (Caleb throws a ton).  

 

Agree, that's his weakness.  But its also a strength, too.  So its an odd mix.  The reason why you got some complementing the heck out of Maye's ability to make plays off platform is that he's had some amazing highlight plays doing it.  He clearly though needs to find some comsistency on that front.

 

When your pocket collapses constantly and your receivers struggle to seperate and rarely make big time catches to bail you out AND you still ball with big time throws and have so few turnover plays that's quite the accomplishment.  

 

One worry I have for some college QBs transition to the NFL is in college some teams can have lopsided advantages that QB's can exploit but what happens when you don't have those advantages?  What happens where its all adversity?

 

IMO Maye was all about adversity.  He had to adjust to a new coordinator.  He had a "meh" running game.  He didn't have much of a TE.  And "meh" receivers.  And bad blocking.  He had the perfect storm of crap that he had to overcome.  And he still played well. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ThatNFLChick]

A report just came out that the Vikings planted a seed to NE about wanting to trade up. I assume then that Washington is going to at least be questioned about their willingness to move out of 2. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[CapsSkins]

4 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

A report just came out that the Vikings planted a seed to NE about wanting to trade up. I assume then that Washington is going to at least be questioned about their willingness to move out of 2. 

 

Who has authority over the picks in NE - GM or HC?

 

Bc if it's HC, Jerod Mayo would be an idiot for passing up a chance at one of the top QB prospects. HC's live and die based on whether they have a QB.

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

Who has authority over the picks in NE - GM or HC?

 

Bc if it's HC, Jerod Mayo would be an idiot for passing up a chance at one of the top QB prospects. HC's live and die based on whether they have a QB.

 

Not sure but the report is below. 

 

Now I don't think we should trade out of #2 but I would be really curious about what we would be offered? I think we at least have to listen to what other people are willing to give up and I want to see what kind of offers NE starts getting (I expect from the Vikings, Raiders and Falcons).

 

 

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, WashingtonRedWolves said:

I like Penix too but that injury history has me steering clear

In fairness, from what I recall, Otis was always quite warmly enamored with not taking a QB top 2. Always, I don't think he's warming up to anything, I think he's always been quite comfortable with the idea. 

 

I think it's flat out insanity and I am so very glad we won't be doing that. Can't say I'm right about taking Maye, or that others are right about preferring Daniels, only time will tell on that (and yes, of course I have Williams #1), but taking a QB at 2 is the only thing I'm 100% positive about. It's a no brainer. I get being bummed that we can't parlay this into what the Chargers can because they took Herbert in 2020, while we took a 3rd DL in four years instead because of course we did, but there are consequences for that level of stupidity and one of them is that you have to not make the same mistake twice. We could trade down and take Nabers or Bowers or an OL if we'd gone with Herbert and had a Chargers styled nightmare season in '23, but, we didn't take Herbert, so we have to try and find our Herbert this year in this big 3, as opposed to that one. 

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

There are still a lot of very vocal Howell fans who feel like he got dealt a bad hand. Even Mark Bullock said he thinks he has untapped potential and wouldn't be mad if we stuck with him. 

I don't disagree w/any of that. MartinC I think it is mentioned Haskins was decent to good down the stretch in '19, which is part of the reason we probably didn't go QB, and he was, same with Howell, Howell was often good, showcasing great traits other than pocket awareness behind a dog---- OL, Jag's and worse in terms of weapons around him (I mean neither WR were in the top 50 in target separation in '23, that is WOEFUL), Robinson turned in a nice year, but nobody's gonna confuse him with Gibbs or Hall or Achane or McCaffrey etc, a quitting coach, a quitting team and a horrible defense. And he still came out there and was a gamer until the rest of the team folded around him after the Seattle and Dallas November games and even then he still kept fighting.

 

I don't think Howell's a bust, just like I wasn't sure Haskins was a bust in '19, but I also didn't care, because "we didn't know" and additionally neither carried the prospect capital to suggest that their ceiling was franchise guy, the upside both guys had to most was maybe a league average starter, with Howell in season having some games that suggested he could edge closer to the top 10-12 on good days. I still believe that potential exists, which is why I don't want to flip him for some crappy day 3 pick. But that doesn't mean I'm sanguine with the position group. We don't have anything at the QB position that has ever proven its even below average in this league. Same as the '20 offseason predraft, and back then I argued for Tua, a trade up godfather move for Burrow, or a trade down for Herbert then, and that's why I want a QB at 2 now. You don't finesse issues this grave. You keep coaching up Howell, you draft your QB of the future, what are the chances Howell gets in games in '24 or '25 if we take a QB at 2? Still quite high. More than half the leagues starters missed significant time this past season, it's a minor miracle Howell didn't behind that ---- line in '23, I doubt that holds in '24, we may need him, and that will give him a chance to up his value, and I like him as a backup anyway if we can't flip him for something of value. I had him tied for 2nd behind Willis and Corral in '22, and with the highest ceiling in the class with Willis, but a higher floor too. He turned out better than I thought, clearly worth a day 2 pick in a middling or worse QB class like '22 and '25. I'm fine with stashing him, I still think he could end up legit, like Hasselbeck did after he left the packers and Favre and like Rodgers did after Favre himself left. 

[NOLA2DC]

I think being in the playoffs   by your 3rd year should be thr minimum goal. I don't see how passing on a Qb accomplishes that 

[mistertim]

Howell did get a rotten deal IMO. But that's no reason to pass on a superior prospect when you have the chance at #2 overall in a strong QB class.

[Bifflog]

8 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

...Jag's and worse in terms of weapons around him (I mean neither WR were in the top 50 in target separation in '23, that is WOEFUL)...

 

I think this should change quickly, I really don't believe Terry and Jahan can't separate as I feel like we have seen it.  Byproduct of EB perhaps.

[The Consigliere]

45 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Was Watson just having an off day? He has a good arm. 

 

Also I don't even think most teams pay attention to velocity numbers anymore unless there is a question about arm strength (I don't think there really is about Daniels by most).

 

I still think the top 3 QBs sit out most of the stuff at the combine. Caleb definitely won't do anything but measure, same as Bryce last year. 

I have no idea. I just know it was a talking point at the time, and scared me out of drafting him in my 2QB leagues in dynasty, I didn't have many chances, but where I did I passed on him (did get Mahomes twice, so at least there's that, zero shares of Trubisky, its nice playing dynasty as it helps to underline where you went right and wrong w/o lying to yourself lol: I know full well I liked Laviska Shenault and Denzel Mims and was scared of Pittman and Aiyuk, landing only 2 shares combined of them, while like 9 or 10 of Shenault and Mims). 

 

I'm not sure, I don't think they have much to worry about. Penix and Nix had kind of meh Senior Bowls, so there is room for them to elevate the hype show, especially Daniels in terms of athleticism and Maye in terms of mechanics. Why not go for it? I think they're both a lock to go top 2, but if I'm those guys I definitely would rather go to DC then New England because of organizational structure and coaching, plus the weather's a bit better too, and you don't have to worry about the Brady residue either. Whereas in DC, it's been a morgue for decades, people are dying for hope, there's a lot more patience in DC then I imagine in Boston where they've been spoiled for decades in really all sports (honestly, polar opposite of DC, almost like the two regions swapped sporting culture in 2000). 

 

 

Edited February 22 by The Consigliere

[Skinsinparadise]

PFF guy who is a fan of this team

 

 

 

 

[MartinC]

37 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Who has authority over the picks in NE - GM or HC?

 

Bc if it's HC, Jerod Mayo would be an idiot for passing up a chance at one of the top QB prospects. HC's live and die based on whether they have a QB.

New GM has final say not Mayo.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

Edited February 22 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Howell did get a rotten deal IMO. But that's no reason to pass on a superior prospect when you have the chance at #2 overall in a strong QB class.

 

As a late round draft choice he got a full year of starting to state his case. He showed he can play in the league but in the end he did not do enough to show that a GM and a new coaching staff should hitch themselves to him as their guy. He had a difficult environment and not a lot of help on or off the field but that was the hand he was dealt. Its a better hand than most QBs drafted late round get.

[The Consigliere]

22 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Howell did get a rotten deal IMO. But that's no reason to pass on a superior prospect when you have the chance at #2 overall in a strong QB class.

He did get a season long viewing window for other GM's to see what he could do when provided with zero support whatsoever from his coaches, his teammates, his OL, his playmakers, and his defense. He showed some flashes of elite arm talent, and elite gamer traits. That's more than most mid day 3 selections from round 5 get, and less than most day 1 and day 2 guys get. It's up to him to make more of his next chance, whether its with us or elsewhere. It's not fair, but this is a sport where landing spot is probably 50% of why or why not 1st round QB's fail or succeed. It's inherently unfair. Go out there and take it. If he's a stud, show us in this offseason. Show us if/when our #2 selection gets hurt, and either stick with us, or get us some day 2 draft capital. Otherwise I keep him. He's worth a top 75 pick in '25 pretty easily to me. If nobody is worth paying that, that's fine, his value is higher on my roster until Maye is entering year 3, then it is selling him for a mid 4th or worse especially considering how --- the '25 class looks and how much of a buyers market '24 is (because of how glutted the QB market is with Free Agents, potential trade targets and the richest QB draft in decades). 

Edited February 22 by The Consigliere

[Warhead36]

Howell got 18 games to start. That's a lot more than most 5th round picks get. Did he have a great team or support system around him? No, but most don't. Its not a fair business and Howell did not show anywhere near enough to justify passing up an elite blue chip QB.

[Dah-Dee]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

PFF guy who is a fan of this team

 

 

 

 

 

I think Akridge did a fair/reasonable assessment of Daniels. 

 

One of the big questions for me on Daniels is, will/can he continue to improve on anticipation throws? I've seen interviews with LSU coaches where Kelly/OC (not Denbrock, the new one) talked about making that a point of emphasis for Daniels coming into 2023 (also saw interviews where Nabers talked about the improvement and talks (and game films sessions) he's had with Daniels about it). 

 

He clearly still has work to do there, but at least we saw flashes this year instead of like in 2022 where it seemed he was usually afraid to throw it unless the receiver was definitely already open. I chalk some of that up to lack of confidence in receivers from ASU days, but whatever the reason for it, Daniels had to clean it up and hopefully he'll continue to get better there wherever he lands in NFL.

 

Might be fun to watch him in Minnesota throwing to Justin Jefferson.

Edited February 22 by Dah-Dee

[ThatNFLChick]

2 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

I think Aldridge did a fair/reasonable assessment of Daniels. 

 

One of the big questions for me on Daniels is, will/can he continue to improve on anticipation throws? I've seen interviews with LSU coaches where Kelly/OC (not Denbrock, the new one) talked about making that a point of emphasis for Daniels coming into 2023 (also saw interviews where Nabers talked about the improvement and talks he's had with Daniels about it). 

 

He clearly still has work to do there, but at least we saw flashes this year instead of like in 2022 where it seemed he was usually afraid to throw it unless the receiver was definitely already open. I chalk some of that up to lack of confidence in receivers from ASU days, but whatever the reason for it, Daniels had to clean it up and hopefully he'll continue to get better there wherever he lands in NFL.

 

Might be fun to watch him in Minnesota throwing to Justin Jefferson.

 

If you watch this breakdown there are several anticipation throws during the Alabama game but I definitely think it can be done more consistently.

 

Also while Nabers and Brian Thomas are great receivers, I appreciate it being pointed out that they can and do make mistakes here:

 

 

[mac8887]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

To me he needs to change his instinct on two things.  And as Keim points out in his podcasts, its easier said then done to change someones natural tendency.

 

A. Protect yourself, get out of bounds, get down versus going for the extra yards on the ground.

 

B. you can't take off that much when you are flushed out of the pocket.  the go to move is to buy time and make a throw, throw off platform.  It's not just about him getting hurt but NFL defenses can cue on that tendency and simply protect the edges to keep him in pocket to force him to throw.  He runs double the time that the average even running NFL QB takes off when flushed in the pocket -- you can't do that in the NFL. 

 

He addresses both points and he IMO can be really good in the pros.

I'd say that he did much to improve your point A during the second half of the season. During the second half of the season he really did well staying out of harms way.

 

I agree with you on your point B. Though he has shown he can throw off platform and complete passed, he did take off more than you'd like to see in the NFL. The only thing we don't know is how he was coached in that aspect of his game. His coaching staff may have gave him the green light to do so, and if they did than I can see why he would run more often. He knew he had the ability to do so and it's much safer to take off and run than it is to throw off platform, especially when you are moving the chains. You see a lot of qbs throw lots of interceptions while throwing on the run or across their body while scrambling. 

 

Hopefully whoever his new coach will instill in him to look to get rid of the ball more often, I'd like to see it more around 70/30 or 80/20 than the 20/80 than it was this last year, but again who's to say if that's what the coaches wanted from him. The good news is he has shown the ability to do it, the not so good news is that he really hasn't done it much, and the other good news is that he hasn't shown that he can't do it well consistently either. 

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

The Bears traded the pick because they thought they had a guy in Fields. Not really the same situation. They aren't going to trade it this year because now they're sure he's not and there is a guy available who projects to be.

 

 

Yep. The only way we are similar to last years Bears is this:

 

We decide that Howell is the qb we want to run with this year . So, we trade down and use the extra picks to build around him.  That extra 2025 #1 and any other 25,26 picks we pick up would be used to further build the roster of put us in position to get the top qb on 25 draft, if Sam bombed in 24. 
 

Of course, we have no idea where that 25 #1 pick would be.  Chicago had no idea Carolina’s pick would be #1 pick.

 

 

If you want to compare us to Chicago, you compare our situations now.  We both have a qb that we feel can improve on. We both are in a position to draft a replacement qb that we feel will be better. 

[ThatNFLChick]

This is again why I do not buy into the "Caleb is generational" talk at all. He is not a better prospect than Burrow or Stroud (better than Lawrence though). His ceiling is high IF he can put it all together but if he can't? The floor is low. He had several plays just like this in the same game:

 

 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

PFF guy who is a fan of this team

 

 

 

Obviously being really lanky and running the way he does is a big concern for Daniels at the next level. But the things I'm just as concerned about is waiting for receivers to be open, then throwing to receivers who are very open, as well as the lack of many anticipation throws. 

 

That's why I think he's likely to have the longest development/learning curve of the three. Like it or not, those kinds of throws are simply not going to be there in the NFL. Waiting for guys to get open is a recipe for sacks and/or errant throws or interceptions, especially if he's staring the guy down. Also, receivers are just not going to get that open in the pros. Any time a WR has more than a yard on a guy in the NFL it's usually due to a busted coverage. And we saw Nabers and Thomas plenty of times with 5+ yards on their guys.

 

And yeah, he can lean on his running if he's going through a passing learning curve. But then that comes back to the concern about his running style and potential injuries.

 

I'm not saying he can't learn to do these things in the passing game, but IMO it may take him some time to get to the point where he's adept enough at it to survive the NFL passing game.

Edited February 22 by mistertim

[DiscoBob]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Obviously being really lanky and running the way he does is a big concern for Daniels at the next level. 

 

If Peters and team don't view this as easily correctable, this is a fatal flaw that should overrule every other trait.

 

Before people jump on me, there is an IF in that statement.  My point being, that nothing else matters in the evaluation unless this one thing cannot be fixed.