The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

 

You see this play and on paper it looks like he has the time to throw, but as soon as he sets at the top of the route, it's too late and he's about to be hit. Tries to step up with eyes down field and the pocket collapses completely. 

 

This is the kind of sack getting hung on Howell. Not saying he doesn't hold the ball too long at times and that some of the sacks aren't his fault, but this sucks.

[Warhead36]

30 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

You see this play and on paper it looks like he has the time to throw, but as soon as he sets at the top of the route, it's too late and he's about to be hit. Tries to step up with eyes down field and the pocket collapses completely. 

 

This is the kind of sack getting hung on Howell. Not saying he doesn't hold the ball too long at times and that some of the sacks aren't his fault, but this sucks.

Yep exactly. Technically he has like 2.5 seconds to throw but the pocket isn't clean at all. 

 

Even when he "has time", he doesn't really have time, if that makes sense. The OL even when they "win" give no margin of error. 

 

Howell just doesn't consistently get a clean pocket to restabilize.

[Riggo#44]

23 hours ago, KDawg said:

If we go pass heavy to start against Philly I’m going to assume that’s just what we’re going to do all year and I can stop being frustrated we aren’t running the ball.

 

I don't disagree with you on balance and needing to get Robinson involved more. However, that Philly defense is giving up less than 50 yrds/gm. I like Charles and Cosmi, but that rotation of Carter, Davis and Cox is going to be very difficult to run against. Their secondary has given up a lot through the air--and should have lost to the Vikings.

Regardless. I think we're ****-****ed this weekend.

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

I don't disagree with you on balance and needing to get Robinson involved more. However, that Philly defense is giving up less than 50 yrds/gm. I like Charles and Cosmi, but that rotation of Carter, Davis and Cox is going to be very difficult to run against. Their secondary has given up a lot through the air--and should have lost to the Vikings.

Regardless. I think we're ****-****ed this weekend.

Listen, that same combination is also rushing the passer. So if your options are killing your essential rookie QB and taking another 10 sack day or running the ball and churning the clock and seeing what happens… I know which I prefer.

[Riggo#44]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Listen, that same combination is also rushing the passer. So if your options are killing your essential rookie QB and taking another 10 sack day or running the ball and churning the clock and seeing what happens… I know which I prefer.

 

Correct, you're really picking your poison there--which is why I fully believe we're ****-****ed this week. 

The shine came off Bieniemy real quick, though, didn't it?

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Correct, you're really picking your poison there--which is why I fully believe we're ****-****ed this week. 

The shine came off Bieniemy real quick, though, didn't it?

Maybe. 
 

He can turn it around. He had Reid in KC to tell him how and why to adjust. Now he’s on his own. It may take time. Or it may never happen. But we’re going to find out.

[mojo]

27 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Maybe. 
 

He can turn it around. He had Reid in KC to tell him how and why to adjust. Now he’s on his own. It may take time. Or it may never happen. But we’re going to find out.

I was shocked he didn't adjust this week.  I gave him a pass the first two weeks, especially Denver bc we were down so quickly but why we came out passing the entire game is beyond me. I was hoping for what we saw in the 2nd half of Denver, quick hitters, runs, and screens.

[KDawg]

39 minutes ago, mojo said:

I was shocked he didn't adjust this week.  I gave him a pass the first two weeks, especially Denver bc we were down so quickly but why we came out passing the entire game is beyond me. I was hoping for what we saw in the 2nd half of Denver, quick hitters, runs, and screens.

I wasn’t shocked. That’s what he wants to do. He wants to pass, pass, pass… and in general a play caller doesn’t learn a lesson until they are forced to learn. I’d be a bit shocked if there wasn’t a bit more to his calls this week as it pertains to screens and running game.

[Skinsinparadise]

Commanders confident QB Sam Howell's 'growing pains' will lead to improvement

• 
  John Keim, ESPN Staff WriterSep 26, 2023, 06:00 AM ET

LANDOVER, Md. -- The Washington Commanders have raved about quarterback Sam Howell’s calm demeanor, his confidence and his ability to forget about bad plays -- or games. Each one of those aspects will be tested this week.

Howell, who had won his first three NFL starts and provided hope for a franchise in search of consistency at quarterback, will need to rebound off his worst game. And he’ll have to do it at Philadelphia on Sunday.

In a 37-3 loss to the Buffalo Bills on Sunday, Howell was intercepted four times and sacked nine times. In three games he has been sacked 19 times, a mixture of his own indiscretions and poor protection.

When the Commanders opted for Howell, a fifth-round pick in 2022, as the starter they knew he’d endure rough days. It’s part of the process for a young quarterback. Sunday qualified as a rough day – and then some.

 

 

“It’s football, it’s going to happen,” Washington coach Ron Rivera said. “There aren’t a lot of guys that are going to go out there and always have success. You got to learn and grow and you learn from the losses as well as you’re learning from the wins. That’s why we’ve just got to stick to it.”

It’s not as if Howell was flawless in his previous starts, including in the 2022 season finale. But he would follow a bad play with a good series.

He turned the ball over three times in those games; he followed those up with a strong drive -- even if they didn’t all result in points. One ended with a field goal; another when running back Antonio Gibson fumbled in the red zone and a third in a missed field goal.

But, Sunday, bad followed bad. On three of his interceptions, the ensuing drive ended in a punt. They got the ball back with 19 seconds left in the first half after the other one and ran one play.

 

...“Obviously a lot of things didn’t go right and it starts with me,” Howell said. “The good thing is, the sun will come up tomorrow.”

But Washington’s pass protection issues do not stem from Howell alone. There are times he can help himself by getting rid of the ball sooner. He could have avoided a sack on Washington’s first drive by getting the ball to receiver Dyami Brown, a checkdown option in the right flat. Instead, Howell was sacked at the Bills’ 33 for an 8-yard loss on first down. Another sack was followed by an interception and a promising drive was ruined.

There were plenty of times, however, that the line -- and backs -- did not help enough in protection, resulting in sacks or poor pockets or perhaps the receivers weren’t open when Howell was ready to throw.

 

We want him to continue with the clock in his head but at the same time we don’t want him to miss opportunities if they’re there,” Rivera said. “And then up front we’d like to hold our blocks a little longer.”

 

Howell has impressed the coaches and players enough in those first three starts -- and in what they’ve seen in practice or meetings -- that Sunday was, to them, an aberration. After all, in those first three starts Howell threw four touchdown passes to two interceptions. He helped lead two fourth-quarter comebacks in the first two games this season.

“He's a true competitor,” Wylie said. “Dude's a warrior out there, took some bits, got right back up, continued to sling that thing. So we're going to keep battling for our guy.”

Washington wasn’t ready to proclaim its longtime quarterback search over after his first three starts; the Commanders aren’t going to panic after one bad start.

“The sooner he develops and grows the more opportunities we’re going to get. This is a very young player so there is some leniency with that," Rivera said. "There is a little bit of growing pains we’re going to have to deal with. It’s important that he develops and grows for us. We’re going to give him every opportunity and right now we’re riding with him.”

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-commanders/post/_/id/43161/commanders-confident-qb-sam-howells-growing-pains-will-lead-to-improvement

[Wyvern]

"Growing pains" seem to imply that Washington and its fans are going to have to expect more 'bumps in the road' during Washington's development of Howell as the starting QB, and leader to the team's execution of Bieniemy's gameplan.

 

That makes me wonder on how well Washington's W-L record will look at Howell, Bieniemy, and company get up to NFL speed and "crafty-ness."

 

I expect Washington will struggle for a 9-8 record, unless Howell, Bieniemy, and company are all quick learners, and can work together.  Next week will be a good test of lessons learned.

[CobraCommander]

The bad o-line vs the "rookie" QB is NOT the kind of debate you should be having year 4 of a regime. Full stop.  

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

You see this play and on paper it looks like he has the time to throw, but as soon as he sets at the top of the route, it's too late and he's about to be hit. Tries to step up with eyes down field and the pocket collapses completely. 

 

This is the kind of sack getting hung on Howell. Not saying he doesn't hold the ball too long at times and that some of the sacks aren't his fault, but this sucks.

Need QB to evade and buy time more consistently than Howell is doing right now. I thought outside of the pocket throws were going to happen more often with Howell than what we’ve seen.
 

He seemed focused on remaining in the pocket, I’ll pass on a 6’0 QB doing that consistently. If he’s dead set on stepping up in the pocket with monster sized individuals then he must be able to blindly pass to the check downs much like say a Drew Brees or Jeff Garcia once did. 
 

This clip he had the check down available as well as an outside extend lane to his left. Your thoughts? 

[CobraCommander]

15 hours ago, Conn said:

If you don’t think Fields gets right against this D then you don't know Commanders football 

I thought we just gave up big games to rookie QBs.

 

Fields will probably just tuck the ball and run as much as possible which is definitely something we have struggled with over the years. Sigh.  

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Need QB to evade and buy time more consistently than Howell is doing right now. I thought outside of the pocket throws were going to happen more often with Howell than what we’ve seen.
 

He seemed focused on remaining in the pocket, I’ll pass on a 6’0 QB doing that consistently. If he’s dead set on stepping up in the pocket with monster sized individuals then he must be able to blindly pass to the check downs much like say a Drew Brees or Jeff Garcia once did. 
 

This clip he had the check down available as well as an outside extend lane to his left. Your thoughts? 

You have got to be kidding me. I get that you think Howell will never be an NFL starting QB, but from this clip? Watch it again and tell me what happens if he throws it at 3 steps, which is the height of his drop. He gets hit while throwing it.

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, Wyvern said:

"Growing pains" seem to imply that Washington and its fans are going to have to expect more 'bumps in the road' during Washington's development of Howell as the starting QB, and leader to the team's execution of Bieniemy's gameplan.

 

 

Thats exactly what I expected coming in. Its what any fan should expect from what is essentially a rookie QB.

 

2 hours ago, Wyvern said:

 

I expect Washington will struggle for a 9-8 record, unless Howell, Bieniemy, and company are all quick learners, and can work together.  Next week will be a good test of lessons learned.

8-9 wins was also exactly what I was expecting and predicting. Its still what I am thinking is the most likely record.

[wit33]

45 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You have got to be kidding me. I get that you think Howell will never be an NFL starting QB, but from this clip? Watch it again and tell me what happens if he throws it at 3 steps, which is the height of his drop. He gets hit while throwing it.

Getting me mixed up.

 

I’m a Howell supporter and bullish on his run and play extension abilities. Still wait and see on intangibles and other QB related stuff for me. Travesty EB is electing to not use his run ability with designed runs (I was worried about this coming in). 
 

Must feel that pressure coming from middle and make a play by either hitting the check down or extending on the edges. Not saying this an easy play, but one I want to see him make due to being high on his play extension ability and knowing he’s 6 foot and must be out of this world situationally to be an impact player. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by wit33

[Koolblue13]

21 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Thats exactly what I expected coming in. Its what any fan should expect from what is essentially a rookie QB.

 

8-9 wins was also exactly what I was expecting and predicting. Its still what I am thinking is the most likely record.

Sam is definitely going to take his lumps, as expected. It's frustrating when things like the OL and OC are making it harder.

 

Which is the exact two reasons I put the ceiling at 7-10.

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Getting me mixed up.

 

I’m a Howell supporter and bullish on his run and play extension abilities. Still wait and see on intangibles and other QB related stuff for me. Travesty EB is electing to not use his run ability with designed runs (I was worried about this coming in). 
 

Must feel that pressure coming from middle and make a play by either hitting the check down or extending on the edges. Not saying this an easy play, but one I want to see him make due to being high on his play extension ability and knowing he’s 6 foot and must be out of this world situationally to be an impact player. 

If you watch that play, they are on him in under 2 seconds, but he doesn't get hit then. He evades for a half second, but the rest of the OL already failed.

 

So statistically that gets credited as Sam holding the ball for 2.5 seconds, while he was already going to be hit in 2 seconds. 

 

Unless you're expecting some Escape Magic like Wentz pulled off once or twice, everyone was getting sacked on that play.

 

If it was Mahomes, Brady, Cousins, whoever, you're pointing right at the OL failure, but because it's Sam, he is taking blame for this one.

[Warhead36]

3 hours ago, CobraCommander said:

I thought we just gave up big games to rookie QBs.

 

Fields will probably just tuck the ball and run as much as possible which is definitely something we have struggled with over the years. Sigh.  

When was the last time we got beat by a rookie QB? 

 

Say what you will about the Rivera era but for the most part we beat the teams and QBs we're supposed to beat since he's taken over.

[Llevron]

 

Its sure sounds like they want him to be a pocket passer and are making him stand in there and learn from it - results be dammed. 

 

Bold strategy. 

[CobraCommander]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

When was the last time we got beat by a rookie QB? 

 

Say what you will about the Rivera era but for the most part we beat the teams and QBs we're supposed to beat since he's taken over.

I can’t recall. But I remember it being a thing. I’ve blocked most of the memories over the last twenty or so years. 
 

*I looked it up and it looks like the last time it happened was the end of last season when Brock Purdy beat us. Or does that not count?

 

**Does our second game against the eagles in 2020 count? The one where a rookie Jalen Hurts was cutting us up until the coach decided to pull him and tank the season?

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by CobraCommander

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

A rather sobering listen this morning on the Junkies with Zach Krueger from Rotoworld.  He did a deep dive into Howell’s pressure to sack rate going back to college and compared it with other power 5 QB’s and also the NFL.

 

Basically, Sam ranked near the bottom in pressure to sack rate all 3 years in college and his # thus far in the NFL is god awful.

 

It’s not news that Sam has a propensity to hold the ball and that sacks are a part of that.  But it was sobering to hear that it wasn’t just his last year at UNC.  That year was the worst of his 3, but all 3 were bad.

 

He stopped short of calling it a fatal flaw but couldn’t really find any comps for guys with this problem that make it as a starter in the NFL.

 

He did say that Sam’s rate for hitting open receivers this season was about 45%, which is among the lowest in the league.  This is not a knock on him, but an indicator of how little guys are getting open for him. This aligns with what @Skinsinparadise has been saying about receivers not creating separation which is likely tied to extra guys in coverage.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

A rather sobering listen this morning on the Junkies with Zach Krueger from Rotoworld.  He did a deep dive into Howell’s pressure to sack rate going back to college and compared it with other power 5 QB’s and also the NFL.

 

Basically, Sam ranked near the bottom in pressure to sack rate all 3 years in college and his # thus far in the NFL is god awful.

 

It’s not news that Sam has a propensity to hold the ball and that sacks are a part of that.  But it was sobering to hear that it wasn’t just his last year at UNC.  That year was the worst of his 3, but all 3 were bad.

 

He stopped short of calling it a fatal flaw but couldn’t really find any comps for guys with this problem that make it as a starter in the NFL.

 

He did say that Sam’s rate for hitting open receivers this season was about 45%, which is among the lowest in the league.  Which aligns with what @Skinsinparadise has been saying about receivers not creating separation which is likely tied to extra guys in coverage.

 

 

 

I was aware.  My issue with him on the draft thread was while i liked him I questioned his pocket presence in part because of the number of sacks he took and sometimes he just didn't see the pressure crashing on him.

 

But I also said and its clear here too that the dude has a live arm and can make some wicked throws.  He's also tough in the pocket, and a baller and that's part of the reason why he holds on to the ball because he's willing to take that hit if need be as he releases the ball.

 

But this team obviously should know that.  If anything Sam's style lends to have an ABOVE average O line.  Give him that extra half a second he needs.  Giving him a crap O line with little emphasis on the running game IMO is the worst thing you can do with him.

 

I'd go as far as saying the next coaching staff we likely have in 2024 and FO should build a good O line not just because that's what good teams do but also because Sam in particular can use it to help bring out his best. 

 

17 hours ago, wit33 said:

Getting me mixed up.

 

I’m a Howell supporter and bullish on his run and play extension abilities. Still wait and see on intangibles and other QB related stuff for me. Travesty EB is electing to not use his run ability with designed runs (I was worried about this coming in). 
 

Must feel that pressure coming from middle and make a play by either hitting the check down or extending on the edges. Not saying this an easy play, but one I want to see him make due to being high on his play extension ability and knowing he’s 6 foot and must be out of this world situationally to be an impact player. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing Howell run more.  That's what he did to adapt to the porous NC line.  Cooley in his film review with Sheehan, and I haven't listened to the whole thing yet at one point Sheehan goes to him what should Howell do here and Cooley goes run. 

 

I get the idea of he's not a big dude so you don't want him taking too many hits in open field.  But he's getting hit plenty regardless.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But this team obviously should know that.  If anything Sam's style lends to have an ABOVE average O line.  Give him that extra half a second he needs.  Giving him a crap O line with little emphasis on the running game IMO is the worst thing you can do with him.

No doubt.  It’s criminal to go into a season with a QB on a 5th round salary that has a propensity to hold the ball too long, and not have horses up front to buy him that time.

[DJHJR86]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing Howell run more. 

 

I'm shocked that he hasn't taken off and ran more often, tbh.  There is no way this is sustainable. 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

No doubt.  It’s criminal to go into a season with a QB on a 5th round salary that has a propensity to hold the ball too long, and not have horses up front to buy him that time.

 

Like I said, Keim almost never criticizes the current regime, whatever the regime is, and when he does its sort of light and subtle.  That's why I've enjoyed listenign to Keim obliterate Bruce this off season.  He was ginger about it at the time.  And I get it you want to keep your access.

 

But yeah he hit this regime for the off season setting up Howell -- a young Qb with this O line.

 

It's possible that Sam holding on to the ball too long among other things end up his fatal flaw and he's not the guy.  I don't know.  I lean optimisitc though on him.  Every young QB is of course a wildcard.    But I don't think we are asking for the moon when referencing giving a young QB good protection.  Draft a young TE.  Do things to help him.  And they haven't.

 

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I'm shocked that he hasn't taken off and ran more often, tbh.  There is no way this is sustainable. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thar Carr season was historic.  People remember it to this day.  And we are on pace to shatter that record.  That's insane.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise