The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

18 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Idk. You can certainly question the stat but I think it makes more sense to question the young, inexperienced QB that’s falling victim to the same things he did in college in a completely unrelated environment. 
 

Id recommend everyone go and listen to Logan Paulsen on Keim’s podcast. He didn’t dance around that he thinks most of it is Sam and with a veteran QB back there, none of these discussions are being had. Bills players basically came out and said similar statements after the game. 
 

It’s not so much a defense of the OLine as much as it is a statement of what Oline play looks like in the modern NFL. There’s a huge  dearth of competent Oline play across the league right now. I was listening to PFF’s weekly pod and Sam Monsoon argued the biggest benefit of a developmental football league would be solving the lack of Oline talent issue league wide. It’s almost a crisis with few exceptions where teams really invest hard. I think Logan Paulsen used the phrase “Cs get degrees” in reference to Oline play. You can run competent/good offense with average OLine play provided you have a QB with competent pocket presence. 
 

So back to our team, if anything we should be sideeying Ron for not building a better than average Oline to mitigate the known flaws of the rookie QB you’ve decided to rest your career on. 

 

I listened to Paulsen who has been oddly borderline in love with the O line since mid camp when he switched from being a critic of it to a believer.    I've talked about it plenty.

 

But listeniing to that segment some of his lines included he thinks another Qb would likely get hit in many of those sack situations versus actually sacked -- didn't sound that hot to me, still.  He also both complements Bieineimy on a macro level while ripping his play calling including it lacking play action and other measures to help the O line.

 

His point was a veteran Qb like Kirk wouldn't have been sacked as much.

 

Running with his premise we do not have a veteran QB of course.  We have a dude that started just now 4 games.  As Keim stated in his last podcast and doubled down on it on Bram's show on Friday.  They knew Sam was inexperienced and took sacks in college -- giving him this type of O line isn't the right formula.  He needs if anything an above average time to get that extra half a second.  That's on the FO.

 

Logan is at odds with the beat guys who cover the team on the O line.  And he's also at odds with Chris Cooley and Jay Gruden.  Cooley and Gruden (more so Cooley) put a bunch of the sacks on Howell but they also think the o line has played poorly and the Wrs haven't seperated.  It's multiple problems.

 

Cooley thinks as a unit this O line plays poorly chemistry wise.  Logan is on the opposite side of this saying these guys are besties (literally) and they love each other and play better as a unit than they do individually.  I like Logan but I'd feel better if at least someone agreed with him who covers this team?

 

As for PFF even running with their numbers.  They still put 10 of the 19 sacks on the O line.  That's most of them and that's still a lot.  PFF loves to profess that you can't have a dude that has a crap game on the O line because its about that one domino that takes them all down.  By their own logic and grades that has existed in every one of these games. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

11 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

this info is huge.....i've wondered about our lack of play action or anything else creative. Sam is being asked to drop back and make plays....period. 

 

As Cooley said, he's stationary in the pocket, and protected by a porous O line waiting for receivers to get open who don't.  Jay said a variation of the same thing.

 

Even the sun is bright, Logan Paulsen, referenced the lack of play action in this offense that helps freeze an O line.

19 hours ago, KDawg said:

I still don’t buy the “time to throw” stat. Watching other games there is no way that is true. 

 

I think part of it is as @Koolblue13 among others pointed out Howell has trash at his feet and its coming from all directions, in his face and laterally, so he doesn't have easy pockets or the ability to escape which you can see if you freeze frames of plays.  But if you are grading pure pressure -- in your face, I don't think they factor the other stuff.  But the trash at his feet is a main plot line.  

 

But again as Keim points out, there is nothing odd for a young QB to need a little extra time to survey the field.  This FO should have accounted for that and they didn't in the off season.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[CobraCommander]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

And they benched their franchise QB when they did that. The only hole in that plot is the HC lost his job, so not sure how smart a move it was for him and it seemed at the time that he made that call, but maybe I'm wrong and the GM called that one in. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

21 hours ago, KDawg said:

I still don’t buy the “time to throw” stat. Watching other games there is no way that is true. 

You can not believe it but they are probably true.  On multiple Keim podcast he says ten tine to throw that he calculates based on timing it himself.  (Makes a joke about his thumb being fast as well). 
 

But his analysis lines up with the stats on every site I’ve see . Howell holds the ball at the average longest rate in the NFL, or close to it.

 

That doesn’t excuse other protection issues, OL, blitz pickup and TEs. 
 

And Howell often has a dirty pocket. 
 

But after listening to 3 weeks of analysis from all over the place, the consensus seems to be the majority, if not the vast majority, of the pressure issues rest on Sam’s shoulders.  
 

Also, from our disagreement in the Game Day thread, Sam came out and said he was responsible for setting the protections and calling the mike in his Wednesday presser.  Obviously he works with Gates, but calling out blitzers and making the OL aware of formation is part of his responsibility, as it is with just about every QB in the NFL.

 

There is a ton on his plate.  He’s young.  He’s going to be good if not very good.  But he’s not there yet and that is by a very large margin the biggest issue.

 

EB might be able to help him out more, the OL could be better, etc.  but the biggest area which needs to improve is QB play.  But when I say improve, it’s more improve consistency, because he does a really good job at times.  He just needs to be more consistent and speed up the decision making process.  

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You can not believe it but they are probably true.  On multiple Keim podcast he says ten tine to throw that he calculates based on timing it himself.  (Makes a joke about his thumb being fast as well). 
 

But his analysis lines up with the stats on every site I’ve see . Howell holds the ball at the average longest rate in the NFL, or close to it.

 

That doesn’t excuse other protection issues, OL, blitz pickup and TEs. 
 

And Howell often has a dirty pocket. 
 

But after listening to 3 weeks of analysis from all over the place, the consensus seems to be the majority, if not the vast majority, of the pressure issues rest on Sam’s shoulders.  
 

Also, from our disagreement in the Game Day thread, Sam came out and said he was responsible for setting the protections and calling the mike in his Wednesday presser.  Obviously he works with Gates, but calling out blitzers and making the OL aware of formation is part of his responsibility, as it is with just about every QB in the NFL.

 

There is a ton on his plate.  He’s young.  He’s going to be good if not very good.  But he’s not there yet and that is by a very large margin the biggest issue.

 

EB might be able to help him out more, the OL could be better, etc.  but the biggest area which needs to improve is QB play.  But when I say improve, it’s more improve consistency, because he does a really good job at times.  He just needs to be more consistent and speed up the decision making process.  

If Sam is calling the protections it’s yet another egregious step from our coaching staff. It’s just plain stupid. Beyond that, the center should be giving the alerts even IF Howell is in charge. Howell would take the blame even if he wasn’t at fault. That’s who he is. 
 

And i still think you’re wrong. QB play needs to improve but the OL and EB are just as much/more to blame than Howell. 
 

It’s about synergy. Our OL can’t protect the young QB who holds the ball as long as he can trying to make a play. 
 

Synergy is on roster construction.

 

Having said that, I DO think our sack numbers decrease if Brisset is in. I think instead of 19 allowed we’d be at 15 or so. 
 

The line is an issue and you don’t seem to want to believe it.

[Skinsinparadise]

Why is Sam Howell getting sacked so much? Commanders searching for answers

John Keim, ESPN Staff WriterSep 29, 2023, 06:00 AM ET

 

...Washington’s line has the league’s 10th-most pass-rush losses, according to ESPN Stats & Information. But sometimes when Howell isn’t sacked, the pocket is more condensed than the Commanders would like.

Howell, at 6-foot-1, is short for a starting quarterback. That means Washington’s interior needs to be more stout to provide an effective pocket.

“He's not the tallest guy, so especially our job is to not let the pocket collapse as much so he can get the ball out and look over us,” Washington guard Sam Cosmi said. “We've got to do a better job of that. But for him, he's working on stuff. We all are.”

 

At times, teams are pushing the interior and looping their ends around the tackles to pressure, or sack, Howell. He has been sacked twice in such situations.

“It’s working,” Washington center Nick Gates said of that strategy. “We need to firm up in the middle to be honest. We’ve just got to get our hands on guys and be able to anchor a little quicker. Just stand firm."

Gates said teams are pressuring them more because of Howell's inexperience.

“He's trying to make plays back there," Gates said. "It takes some time to get used to, but as a line we’ve got to come together and pick him up. We can't let him get hit like that. It's not all on us, but it's our job to block it for him so we could do a better job than we have.”

But, wide receiver Terry McLaurin said, they have playcalls that can help reduce the time Howell needs to make his reads -- or even to go through his progressions. On a 10-yard catch against Buffalo, McLaurin faced solo coverage from corner Tre'Davious White. It became an automatic conversion to a fade route.

 

“Those are easy throws that you can get to help your quarterback get in the rhythm,” McLaurin said. “It's like, OK, I got off cover so I'm going to take the short. Or I got a press, I'm going to take this fade. Those are easy throws that I help feel like the quarterback sees the ball thrown, caught, and keeps you in a rhythm in the offense versus I got to drop back, I got to go here, here, here.”

That’s why Bieniemy said it’s not just one issue, even if Howell’s growth and development will receive a lot of the attention.

“It’s a combination of everything,” he said. “It starts with me. We have a young quarterback. Our job is to make sure we’re continuing to grow there. When you go through a season you have highs and lows. This is when you find out who you are.”

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-commanders/post/_/id/43171/commanders-on-pace-to-allow-record-sacks

[Voice_of_Reason]

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

If Sam is calling the protections it’s yet another egregious step from our coaching staff. It’s just plain stupid. Beyond that, the center should be giving the alerts even IF Howell is in charge. Howell would take the blame even if he wasn’t at fault. That’s who he is.
 

 

I mean, 32 QBs in the NFL call out protections every week, so I’m not sure how it’s egregious.  The Center calls the line protections but he’s got his hand in the dirt and his head between his legs.  The swab is responsible for identifying pressure, communicating that to the center and set the blitz pickups and secondary protection. 
 

For literally every single team in the NFL.  I’ve been listening to QBs talk about that being a hard thing to learn since I was watching Jaws on ESPN in the 90’s.  This isn’t new, and isn’t unique.  

 

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

And i still think you’re wrong. QB play needs to improve but the OL and EB are just as much/more to blame than Howell.
 

 

it’s not me your saying is wrong.  It’s literally everybody who does any analysis on the team who isn’t a journalist trying to be an analyst.  Everybody is in alignment on it. 
 

I haven’t heard anybody say the OL is doing great.  But they consistently put the majority of the pressures and sacks on Sam.  They might not love the OL, but they still say QB play is by a long shot the biggest issue.

 

And again, it’s to be expected.  
 

I noticed it much more watching live than I did on TV.  But it just felt like he was holding the ball longer than other NFL QBs.  Then you watch the tape and look at the stats, and the feeling was absolutely confirmed.  

 

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

It’s about synergy. Our OL can’t protect the young QB who holds the ball as long as he can trying to make a play. 
 

Synergy is on roster construction.

 

Having said that, I DO think our sack numbers decrease if Brisset is in. I think instead of 19 allowed we’d be at 15 or so. 
 

The line is an issue and you don’t seem to want to believe it.

The line is an issue.  But if the film watchers are right, the sack number would probably be closer to 8-9.  They put THAT many of the sacks on Howell.  Wylie and Leno have been beaten cleanly about 3 times each, Gates blew a protection in the opener, and Charles got run over once or twice.

 

I’m not saying it’s not an issue.  I’m saying it is a secondary issue to the primary issue.  And if the primary issue was better the secondary issue wouldn’t look as bad.

 

I feel like you and a couple of other posters got so dig in on the line being absolutely abhorrent in June that nothing that’s actually happening can move you off the spot.

 

The win rate ESPN metrics show the line as somewhere between average and below average.  

But the narrative remains they are the worst, or one of the worst, units in the league.  
 

I just think that narrative is incorrect.  At least based on weeks 1-3z. And I think some folks are desperately tryin to hang onto it for whatever reason.  

That could change over the next 3-4 weeks, but as of now, it’s not actually factually true.  

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I mean, 32 QBs in the NFL call out protections every week, so I’m not sure how it’s egregious.  The Center calls the line protections but he’s got his hand in the dirt and his head between his legs.  The swab is responsible for identifying pressure, communicating that to the center and set the blitz pickups and secondary protection. 
 

For literally every single team in the NFL.  I’ve been listening to QBs talk about that being a hard thing to learn since I was watching Jaws on ESPN in the 90’s.  This isn’t new, and isn’t unique.  

 

 

it’s not me your saying is wrong.  It’s literally everybody who does any analysis on the team who isn’t a journalist trying to be an analyst.  Everybody is in alignment on it. 
 

I haven’t heard anybody say the OL is doing great.  But they consistently put the majority of the pressures and sacks on Sam.  They might not love the OL, but they still say QB play is by a long shot the biggest issue.

 

And again, it’s to be expected.  
 

I noticed it much more watching live than I did on TV.  But it just felt like he was holding the ball longer than other NFL QBs.  Then you watch the tape and look at the stats, and the feeling was absolutely confirmed.  

 

The line is an issue.  But if the film watchers are right, the sack number would probably be closer to 8-9.  They put THAT many of the sacks on Howell.  Wylie and Leno have been beaten cleanly about 3 times each, Gates blew a protection in the opener, and Charles got run over once or twice.

 

I’m not saying it’s not an issue.  I’m saying it is a secondary issue to the primary issue.  And if the primary issue was better the secondary issue wouldn’t look as bad.

 

I feel like you and a couple of other posters got so dig in on the line being absolutely abhorrent in June that nothing that’s actually happening can move you off the spot.

 

The win rate ESPN metrics show the line as somewhere between average and below average.  

But the narrative remains they are the worst, or one of the worst, units in the league.  
 

I just think that narrative is incorrect.  At least based on weeks 1-3z. And I think some folks are desperately tryin to hang onto it for whatever reason.  

That could change over the next 3-4 weeks, but as of now, it’s not actually factually true.  

Factually doesn’t mean what you think it means, apparently.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Factually doesn’t mean what you think it means, apparently.

I’m using the metrics provided as facts.  
 

You can argue the facts are wrong.  But metrics say what they say.  
 

It’s easy to toss out metrics and say “I’m right, no matter what the analytics say.”  
 

But ok, fine.  I’ll rephrase.  
 

Based on every analytic I can see which seem to be commonly accepted as accurate, the film study of every person I’ve listened to including the PFF guys, and my own observations, the OL is not performing as a bottom 3 unit and the largest issue for the offense is Sam Howell being a young, developing QB.  
 

There are other issues.  Nobody is claiming otherwise.  But that’s #1 and #1 by a wide margin.  

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I’m using the metrics provided as facts.  
 

You can argue the facts are wrong.  But metrics say what they say.  
 

It’s easy to toss out metrics and say “I’m right, no matter what the analytics say.”  
 

But ok, fine.  I’ll rephrase.  
 

Based on every analytic I can see which seem to be commonly accepted as accurate, the film study of every person I’ve listened to including the PFF guys, and my own observations, the OL is not performing as a bottom 3 unit and the largest issue for the offense is Sam Howell being a young, developing QB.  
 

There are other issues.  Nobody is claiming otherwise.  But that’s #1 and #1 by a wide margin.  

“number 1 and by a wide margin”

 

Interesting that more than half the sacks statistically, which is something you seem to lean on, are on the OL I don’t know how Howell is the #1 issue by a wide margin. The math doesn’t check out.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Honestly, I think it’s easier for fans to blame “nameless” Olinemen than it is to cast blame on the young QB that represents hope and promise. It’s the same story as 2013 and 2014 tbh. I’ve been oddly invested in the career of Justin Fields since he was drafted bc I was much lower on him than consensus. I read a lot of Bears content as a result. Their fans do the exact same thing when analyzing him. Way easier to blame random fat guys than the young, handsome QB. No matter how many stats you throw out, their/our OLine is the equivalent of 5 turnstiles. 
 

Now if you want to analyze it from the 10,000 view and question the entire idea/operation of playing a rookie behind an average at best line in a win now season, I’m in unison. I’ve been screaming about that for literally 8+ months. Honestly it’s a pretty ridiculous idea and unfair to Sam Howell and his development. But it’s still kinda crazy how fans want to shield unproven players from valid criticism. We’ve been through this process enough to know better imo. He’s young and he has enough talent that I think he’ll eventually overcome it. But ignoring it seems weird to me. It’s right there. Even when he was cooking the Ravens 3rd string, it was noticeable. I traveled 3K miles to watch the week 1 game. Had seats right around the home bench. His pocket play really sticks out in a bad way in person. So when I see tons of stats that confirm that, there’s no debate. 
 

But hopefully he turns the corner soon and this is a moot argument. 

[KDawg]

No one is shielding Howell, though. The guy holds the ball too long. Absolutely. He is trying too hard at times to make plays. He is a very real party at blame.

 

However, the amount of unblocked rushers is alarming. And it’s whiffs and not always bad protection calls (those exist, too). And there isn’t a whole lot you can do as a QB when your line simply doesn’t block their assignment.

 

For the record, my argument has always been that we didn’t set this team up for success based on the personnel that was put together. But that also means that the OL is poor. 
 

But our playcalling has been pretty poor, too. A lot of intermediate breaking routes behind poor pressure and a QB who holds the ball is a recipe for failure.

 

Quick hitters, run game and occasional shots is the recipe for success here. 
 

Howell needs to get better, too. No question. And if you’re going to criticize him let’s get down to what he really should be getting criticized for. After his first two reads he tends to sit on those and wait for one of them to run open before scanning to the other reads. He doesn’t seem to be progressing through all of his reads and that is the biggest issue with him holding the ball. You can see it sometimes in his hitches. However, the pocket being pushed into his pocket and trash around him makes it hard to see and get through all progressions as well.

 

It’s all symbiotic. And when you decide to go with the young gun as your QB the mission is to protect him and get him in the best positions to make plays.

 

We didn’t. Due to strategy and personnel. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

No one is shielding Howell, though. The guy holds the ball too long. Absolutely. He is trying too hard at times to make plays. He is a very real party at blame.

 

However, the amount of unblocked rushers is alarming. And it’s whiffs and not always bad protection calls (those exist, too). And there isn’t a whole lot you can do as a QB when your line simply doesn’t block their assignment.

 

For the record, my argument has always been that we didn’t set this team up for success based on the personnel that was put together. But that also means that the OL is poor. 
 

But our playcalling has been pretty poor, too. A lot of intermediate breaking routes behind poor pressure and a QB who holds the ball is a recipe for failure.

 

Quick hitters, run game and occasional shots is the recipe for success here. 
 

Howell needs to get better, too. No question. And if you’re going to criticize him let’s get down to what he really should be getting criticized for. After his first two reads he tends to sit on those and wait for one of them to run open before scanning to the other reads. He doesn’t seem to be progressing through all of his reads and that is the biggest issue with him holding the ball. You can see it sometimes in his hitches. However, the pocket being pushed into his pocket and trash around him makes it hard to see and get through all progressions as well.

 

It’s all symbiotic. And when you decide to go with the young gun as your QB the mission is to protect him and get him in the best positions to make plays.

 

We didn’t. Due to strategy and personnel. 

We agree at a high level then. 
 

I think part of the reason for my “pessimism” tone is that I honestly don’t think Sam will get a fair chance to be the future here. He’s been set up to fail in a hair brain, last ditch effort to save jobs/advance careers. He needs to be on a team with muted expectations where he can have his roller coaster ride performances and the results not really matter. Instead, he has to win (and credit to him, he’s 3-1 as a starter). I’m a big believer in a unified vision in whatever organization you’re in. One common goal. We do not have that in Washington right now and it’s basically malpractice. The goal needs to be either to win or to develop Sam. You can’t do both. Ask the 49ers with Trey Lance. 
 

I think tomorrow will be really tough and that’ll put a huge emphasis on Thursday as a “really need to win” game. That’s a lot of pressure on a raw talent like him. I think there’s potential for issues if Ls start to stack and seats start getting hotter. Again, it’s very unfair to Sam. There’s likely to be new management next year that have no ties to him and want to make a splash. He pretty much has to answer all questions this season to solidify his spot here if we’re being honest. I worry he’s gonna turn into a solid Kirk Cousins tier QB some time in the next 3 years but it won’t be here. 
 

I still hold out hope that we’ll get lucky for once and he just goes super nova this season and my fears can abide. 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Honestly, I think it’s easier for fans to blame “nameless” Olinemen

Wylie is trash, Gates is average on a good day, Leno is good to average and old and slow, Charles is a brawler who makes a ton of mistakes.

 

Better?

 

I've been criticizing the OL moves since they happened.

[Skinsinparadise]

I blame Howell for Wylie's struggles in KC.  I don't get why some think he isn't good?

 

 

 

[dunfer]

Its Sams first loss in the pros. It was a catastrophic loss between sacks and ints, but lets just chill and see what happens. I mean what else can you do, besides chanting ja-co-by. ****...hes got a 3 syllable name that ends in "ee"

Edited September 30, 2023 by dunfer

[Chris 44]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wylie is trash, Gates is average on a good day, Leno is good to average and old and slow, Charles is a brawler who makes a ton of mistakes.

 

Better?

 

LOL, KB you made my day with that.

 

Buddy of mine in Philly (Philly fan) text me and said that the shows up there are saying the Eagles D Line is gonna feast cause they say the skins tackles (didn't mention the interior) are no good. Wanted my opinion....told him the Eagles shows are lying to him, best OL in the league despite the stats.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Chris 44

[Captain Wiggles]

Quote

In 2022, Andrew Wylie had 45 blown blocks

 

This puts him on pace to have 34 blown pass blocks on the season.

 

Wylie's on the uptrend. 🤣

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

“number 1 and by a wide margin”

 

Interesting that more than half the sacks statistically, which is something you seem to lean on, are on the OL I don’t know how Howell is the #1 issue by a wide margin. The math doesn’t check out.

Except, where are you getting half the sacks are on the OL? 

 

Also, we probably should note somewhere that at least 2 or 3 of the sacks aren't really sacks, they were 1 yard losses where Howell held the ball, escaped, and then got dragged down 1 yard behind the LOS. That was especially true in the opener.

 

But ok, let's go with it.  Let's say half the sacks, or 9, are on the OL, through 3 games.  That would rank them about 20th in sacks per game.  Nowhere near the best, but also not the worst.

 

Philly, who everybody says (and I agree) has the best OL in football, has given up an average of 2.7 sacks per game.  They're tied for 17th in the league, FWIW.  

 

If you want to see vast improvement in the offense, Howell needs to process faster and throw quicker, in the timing of the play.  That's the #1 thing which has to happen.  Everything else is secondary.  It would make literally everything else look better.  

 

The OL is what the OL is.  It might get a little better as they learn to play with each other more.  But Leno and Wylie are going to completely biff on blocks from time to time, and we're just going to have to live with that. Charles is going to get run over every now and then. 

 

If I had my druthers, they would have traded up into the top 10 and selected the best tackle they could get, and they would have signed another 1-2 starting quality tackles and another guard in the off-season to better protect Howell.  I think they mismanaged the group as a hole, and they should have done more.  I have absolutely no argument with that.  I agree.  I posted in the draft thread as soon as they picked a DB in the first the entire regime needed to be fired for not finding a way to get more OL help.  

 

But all of that said, the OL hasn't been anywhere near as bad as a few people, some on this board, and some in the media, want to claim it has been.  For reasons that I just don't understand.  One of the guests on Galdi's podcast this week (I think it was Mark Bullock, but it could have been somebody else) started his segment with "This might be an unpopular opinion" and then went on to say he didn't think the OL was the major cause of the sacks. Paraphrased. It was BANANAS to me that a film guy KNEW it would be unpopular to say the OL wasn't the root cause of the problems.   Gadi had a "the truth about the OL" segment last week.  

 

My issue all along was first, let's not declare the OL the worst unit in the NFL since the merger before they actually play a game, and then later, let's judge it based on reality and not preconceived notion.  

 

I really have no dog in this fight.  As I said, I think it is borderline criminal they didn't do more to get better quality starters.  But I also think for some reason there is an emotional hatred of this group which I've never quite understood. My best guess is it's transitive from hatred of Ron and roster construction, and desire to see Ron gone, and the OL is the personification of that roster construction, so that's why.  Maybe?  I'm not a psychologist, but it's the best I've got.  And people also don't want to crush Howell because he's a young QB.  Easier to put blame on the bad OL Ron put together. 

 

I feel like @Skinsinparadise writing war and peace as a retort to a 1 line post. But

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wylie is trash, Gates is average on a good day, Leno is good to average and old and slow, Charles is a brawler who makes a ton of mistakes.

 

Better?

 

I've been criticizing the OL moves since they happened.

Did Wylie kick your dog?  Your hatred of him is emotional and somewhat unexplainable. He's not great.  But he's nowhere near the level of horrendous you want to make him out to be.  

 

FWIW, his 70m replacement in KC has already been benched Jawaan Taylor.  Though, he probably will get his job back.  But they paid $80m and $60 guaranteed, and he couldn't make it out of 3 games without getting benched.

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Did Wylie kick your dog?  Your hatred of him is emotional and somewhat unexplainable. He's not great.  But he's nowhere near the level of horrendous you want to make him out to be.  

 

FWIW, his 70m replacement in KC has already been benched Jawaan Taylor.  Though, he probably will get his job back.  But they paid $80m and $60 guaranteed, and he couldn't make it out of 3 games without getting benched.

Was I pissed they let him get away with bull**** in the superbowl? Yes

 

Did I want better upgrades on the ol? Yes

 

Do I think OL is the main reason we'll draft high? Yes

 

Does that all piss me off? Yes

 

I feel like I was promised pizza. You know, from the tri state area. Real pizza. And someone is trying to force feed me papa John's from a southern state. Cold. With old canned pineapples and mushrooms. 

 

I dont like EB or Wylie and that's supposed to be out answer. I'm not sure we beat the Bears.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Was I pissed they let him get away with bull**** in the superbowl? Yes

 

Did I want better upgrades on the ol? Yes

 

Do I think OL is the main reason we'll draft high? Yes

 

Does that all piss me off? Yes

 

I feel like I was promised pizza. You know, from the tri state area. Real pizza. And someone is trying to force feed me papa John's from a southern state. Cold. With old canned pineapples and mushrooms. 

 

I dont like EB or Wylie and that's supposed to be out answer. I'm not sure we beat the Bears.

It feels to me you still haven’t processed the SB loss of the Eagles to the Chiefs emotionally and you are lashing out at former Chiefs because of it.  
 

Your hatred of these folks is not rational.  

BTW, you should know, Papa Johns.  Better ingredients, better pizza! 
 

I don’t really care any which way on any player at all.  And if Wylie truly stinks, they have Lucas and they can try him.  They can cut him next week and I wouldn’t care.  
 

But the hatred for Wylie across media and posters is irrational.  I don’t think I’ve seen this type of irrational hatred towards a player since either Shar Pardanaesh or Tyler Polumbus. 
 

And I also think it’s transitive for Ron hatred.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I feel like @Skinsinparadise writing war and peace as a retort to a 1 line post. But

 

 

 

 

We debated this before the season.  Your thesis has been this team goes 10-7 and the O line is probably not as bad as we think it is.  So I got no problem with that.  We all have our predictions and It's cool.  The season is young, your predictions might be vindicated.  Will see.  So I don't expect you to bounce off of your off season thoughts this early.  I respect that you are doubling down on them versus waffiing. 

 

If I told you before the season that they'd have given up 19 sacks and are on pace for an historically bad season on that front -- I bet you wouldn't have believed that.  But here we are. 

 

Now, you are citing PFF, the same web site and outfit that you debated me to death as being run by a bunch of clowns.  But now since they back your point to some extent (but not totally, I'll hit that in the next paragraph) that the unit aren't as bad as it looks.  You open your arms to PFF.  Logan Paulsen has kept to his bromance with the O line.  I like Logan but he's on an island as for those covering the team on the O line. 

 

If you want football people to disagree with Logan how about Cooley and Jay Gruden.   I know you hate Gruden.  But you have praised Cooley including citing him as a reason why you don't believe in PFF because you trust his takes over theirs.  So how does that extend to this point?  Now its PFF > Cooley becuase that fits your position better?  Look I am willing to change my mind on things.  I am not stuck in the mud. 

 

I've hammered Rivera but not because that's what I've always done.  It's quite the opposite.  I had his back for years. So has @KDawg and @Koolblue13 on some fronts.  We've changed our position as the facts in our mind have changed. 

 

And as to PFF you are not giving the real take of what THEY think.  They give 10 sacks to the O line.  Not 8-9 that you continue to mention on the O line.  That is,  they see it more on the O line than Howell at least in the context of attributing sacks.  Also PFF loves to say as for the O line in general its about the leak on the boat, not the whole unit.  Every game they've had a dude on the O line at pass protection with bad scores.  They have both Gates and Wylie in the 50s in pass protect on the aggregate which is below average. 

 

As I told you in our discussions, even PFF isn't a slave to their own score.  I mentioned Stromberg as a dude they've given good scores yet don't like him as a player.  Conversely, they give medicore scores to Wylie yet I've heard one of their analyists say in an interview that he's not a good player.  I've explained that whole dynamic to you in our series of debates.  😎

 

You seem to like Keiim.  His point is they knew this off season that Howell was young and inexperienced and can hold on the ball yet they did little to upgrade the O line.  Keim thinks that's a mistake on their end.  He's repeated that point multiple times.  And as you know Keim is rarely critical so when he takes shots its something he feels strongly about.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

55 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It feels to me you still haven’t processed the SB loss of the Eagles to the Chiefs emotionally and you are lashing out at former Chiefs because of it.  
 

Your hatred of these folks is not rational.  

BTW, you should know, Papa Johns.  Better ingredients, better pizza! 
 

I don’t really care any which way on any player at all.  And if Wylie truly stinks, they have Lucas and they can try him.  They can cut him next week and I wouldn’t care.  
 

But the hatred for Wylie across media and posters is irrational.  I don’t think I’ve seen this type of irrational hatred towards a player since either Shar Pardanaesh or Tyler Polumbus. 
 

And I also think it’s transitive for Ron hatred.

I've explained myself plenty of times. It feels like Ron gave up and just handed his buddy EB the job and that's wildly disappointing. 

 

Thats why I'm passionate about it. I'm pissed. Ron and his mediocre teams are finished this year. He doesn't have Dan to simp for anymore and he knows the new owner isn't going to let Ron act like it's his team.

 

They tanked the offseason and I've been consistent in my take and I'm pretty much of the same opinion as SIP and a couple others who've said the same thing.