The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

Not that I think they pass on taking a qb at 2, but couldn’t your points also lend themselves to sticking with Howell?  Howell has the arm talent, (mostly) positive intangibles, flashed, has pro experience but is still young, could benefit with an offense more catered to him (Kingsbury’s offense and his connection with Longo looms large), and that #2 could be parlayed into (even more) improvement of the supporting cast for Howell.

 

Again, I don’t see them going that route.  Frankly, feels like it would be spitting in the face of karma, lol.  Heck, even if they really like Howell, even if they have him on par w/ Maye, the added 3 years of a rookie contract is pretty massive.  However, I don’t think it would be too hard for the staff to sell the possibility to the rest of the league (if they cared to).

You are a new GM and HC combo starting a rebuild under a new owner. You have the #2 overall pick in a draft with 3 blue chip QB prospects. Your incumbent starter is a 6th round pick with one season starting experience selected by the GM/HC who just got fired who showed a lot of promise but collapsed late in the season. 

 

It would be a HUGE leap of faith in Howell to pass on taking a QB at #2 overall and if it went badly next season and the QB you could have had at #2 overall looks like a franchise guy the kind of thing that could get you fired fast.

 

We are taking a QB @ #2. Its just a question of which one. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Not that I think they pass on taking a qb at 2, but couldn’t your points also lend themselves to sticking with Howell?  Howell has the arm talent, (mostly) positive intangibles, flashed, has pro experience but is still young, could benefit with an offense more catered to him (Kingsbury’s offense and his connection with Longo looms large), and that #2 could be parlayed into (even more) improvement of the supporting cast for Howell.

 

Again, I don’t see them going that route.  Frankly, feels like it would be spitting in the face of karma, lol.  Heck, even if they really like Howell, even if they have him on par w/ Maye, the added 3 years of a rookie contract is pretty massive.  However, I don’t think it would be too hard for the staff to sell the possibility to the rest of the league (if they cared to).

 

Maybe but I don't find Howell's upside or he flashed enough to warrant an all hands on deck approach.

[ThatNFLChick]

I actually think McCarthy has better footwork throwing on the run than he does in the pocket. That percentage is eye opening though 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Something worth discussing that I haven't seen much of in here ... we COULD opt to sit our rookie QB early in the season. Maye is pretty young. Caleb is on the younger side. Jayden Daniels may be a bit raw. I know the impetus is to start your rookie ASAP, but we have seen time and time again how beneficial it can be for a rookie to sit, even if just for a short spell.

 

Since we have one young QB in Howell already on the roster (and presuming he doesn't get traded), I could see us rolling with Howell to start the season before flipping over to the rookie when it's clear the time has come. We know we likely aren't "going anywhere" next year, and truthfully the difference in performance between Howell and a rookie early on may not be that significant. There's also the chance that Howell just balls TF out early in the season with a better OL and another year of development, and we find ourselves in the Chargers' position from the early 2000's when they traded Brees to make room for Rivers. 

 

Not saying Howell is the next Brees, but if he plays well next season and holds off the rookie, he could become a super valuable trade asset after 2024. 

You draft a guy #2 overall, you play him, unless you have an established quality starting QB already in house which we absolutely do not.

[skinny21]

45 minutes ago, MartinC said:

You are a new GM and HC combo starting a rebuild under a new owner. You have the #2 overall pick in a draft with 3 blue chip QB prospects. Your incumbent starter is a 6th round pick with one season starting experience selected by the GM/HC who just got fired who showed a lot of promise but collapsed late in the season. 

 

It would be a HUGE leap of faith in Howell to pass on taking a QB at #2 overall and if it went badly next season and the QB you could have had at #2 overall looks like a franchise guy the kind of thing that could get you fired fast.

 

We are taking a QB @ #2. Its just a question of which one. 

Oh, I definitely agree with all of that.  Mainly just pointing out that the same points SIP brought up also apply to Howell.  To be fair to SIP’s point though, 1) it absolutely points to us avoiding the FA route (Cousins/Wilson/etc), and 2) adding your above points* to his suggests we’re nailed on taking a qb at 2.

 

*of course SIP has made at least most, if not all of those same points you did.  Only mentioning that to explain that I know his post I quoted wasn’t in a vacuum… not to take away from your post, lol.

 

 

Probably not worth expanding on/furthering my initial point, but… let’s say this staff likes both Maye and Daniels a lot; they’d be thrilled with either.  While I doubt the league would expect us to do anything but draft a qb at 2, similar to the Cards talking up Rosen, I can see a world where we talk up Howell (and bemoan his support system), including pushing the idea that we’re turning to an offensive scheme he had a lot of success in and comfort with.  Then we leak that we absolutely love MJII and also like both qbs.  Theoretically, NE and ARI (if the former prefers either Maye or Daniels, and latter is set on MJII) could both get a little uncomfortable with which direction we go.  To me, those are the only spots I might be willing to drop down to.

 

Obviously, I highly doubt it plays out anything like that.  If we could land a qb the staff loves and net an extra 2nd round pick (or whatever) though?  That would be fantastic.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Uncertain if Cousins talk has occurred -- I'm sure it has, I may have even engaged in discussion -- but how we feeling about ol Kirk coming back for a couple seasons? Assuming he's still able to play solid, he'd be the best QB this team has had since, well, the time he left.

 

I was one of the people here who wanted Kirk to stay.  I liked him.  We've had the worst QBR in the NFL since he left.  The Kirk contract negotiation, letting go of a prime opportunity to trade him for major compensation and then getting a ham sandwich in compensation for Kirk -- is a perfect summary of the dysfunction of the Dan era.

 

However, i don't want a 36 year old Qb coming off of an ACL injury.  Lets start anew. The one upside of bringing back Kirk is the entertainment value of it considering some fans oddly hate him still.  

[Ghost of]

1 hour ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 actually think McCarthy has better footwork throwing on the run than he does in the pocket. That percentage is eye opening though 

 

During the national championship I told a friend that when the offense stalled they needed to get him on a few designed runs or scrambles to loosen him up.  I think it was the run (the drive stalled but he got a big gain from deep in Michigan territory) that loosened him back up and he started connecting on passes again. I think McCarthy is something of a rhythm passer.

[FootballZombie]

My idea to improve Daniels was have a slide coach break into his bedroom on draft night.

 

I think my idea to improve Maye would be duct-taping Rafiki to his hip to bonk him upside the noggin' whenever he tries to do too much. That will learn 'em real quick.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

Ignoring injuries, do you lean towards Daniels over Maye?
 

 

Nope.  IMO Maye has more arm talent than Daniels.  He also throws with anticipation and can throw in tight windows and on all three levels -- 2nd level too which is something I don''t feel that Daniels matches right now.  Now if Maye was a pure pocket passer like lets say Jared Goff, I'd go with Daniels.  But Maye can motor, too.  He's not Daniels level as a runner but for a big dude he can move and he is willing to use his legs.

 

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Absolutely hate Daniels wasnt a former baseball player, off platform throws and baseball slides are below average for him. Admire his consistent throwing motion and am hopeful he measures close to or at 6'4. Love the concept of having an elite dual-threat player who can excel at checking down without being prone to batted balls and similar issues.

 

Ex-baseball player Russell Wilson might be the best case of a mobile QB who was great at protecting himself.  Daniels isn't bad when he throws off platform but he doesn't throw nearly as much as he should.  If recall he takes off about 2:1 more than the average QB in the NFL, including the mobile ones if he's flushed in the pocket.

 

Don't get me wrong though i'd be excited if its Daniels.  I am not one of the zero sum game people on this thread who is all about one QB over another -- I just don't bother with the Daniels props because he gets more than enough help from others here to prop him at every turn. 

 

But I think this team is in great position.  I am good with trading up for Caleb.  I am good with taking Maye.  I am good with taking Daniels.  Only thing I am not good with is passing over a QB.

 

Plus we got Brian Johnson on staff who helped develop Dak and Hurts.  We got Klingsbury who discovered Mahomes and developed Kyler.  We got in theory one of the better GMs in the league.  Heck I'll even give props to Hurney who apparently liked Herbert in that draft.  We got enough brain power to make a good decision.  So i am not fretting what they do.  I'll trust it.  If it were me I'd stick to #2 and take Maye.  But trading up is fine with me.  Taking Daniels is fine with me, too.

Edited February 14 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

The big thing is that they all need to be on board from day one. Listen to some of the Mahomes interviews or watch when the Ravens draft Jackson.

 

Everyone on the same page, in alignment, and we can take our talented young thoroughbred and let him grow into a real stallion.

[The Consigliere]

22 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

 

Just for the record, if we trade down I’m guessing you will still support that as being the GMAP ‘right way’. Or does GMAP need to be picking Maye at #2 in order to be doing it the right way by GMWH36 ? 

No. Of course not. I don't view trading down as best practices and good process when it comes to teams that lack an elite QB and are slotted in position to take one in a strong QB draft. I would and do disagree entirely with that approach and I would not support it. I know you're joking with him, and not me, but I want to be clear. Some people say they will support the GM no matter the decision. Personally, I think that's silly as hell. Horrible GM's make terrible decisions consistently, great GM's also make terrible decisions *sometimes*. I view a trade down in this draft, with this class and our issues at QB as a terrible decision. I would not support it, period and would even view success, as an outlier and the product of good fortune while using poor practices, not the kind of approach likely to yield good results, most of the time. Doesn't mean it never works out, going full idiot and getting lucky. Patriots passed on Brady numerous times in 2020, Dallas wanted Paxton Lynch and Conor Cook and settled for Dak. Niners like Trey Lance way more than Brock Purdy. You can accidentally land a value, pretend it was genius. Hell even Bill Walsh liked Steve Dills more than Joe Montana, he just wasn't in position to pick Dills and was able to snag Montana. Worked out. It can happen. Those are aberrations, but they happen, its always gonna happen in an exact science like drafting, but in drafting, you should always be acting in such a way to maximize value and/or the best possible chance to solve issues like QB. I'll celebrate a hit down the line if we accidentally land our QB future on day 3 in 2025, instead of top 2 in 2024, but I'm not gonna view it as best practices or smart, it's more blind luck than anything, and that's not a way to run a franchise, as we've seen the last 30 years. Depending upon QB solving itself, through vetereness and stop gaps and later draft picks is largely a fools errand. It's worked what 2 or 3 times in the last 60 years? Not exactly a plan in my view with high probability of success. I'll take the 50/50 to 55/45 chances of Maye over that every day of the week and I'll criticize trying to roll the dice on a trade down without question, rather than back it. This is not a situation where a trade down makes any sense at all, and I like JJ. 

[Warhead36]

If Peters makes moves I disagree with I'll say so. That doesn't mean I want him fired or anything, but we shouldn't blindly love every move. But of course, we should also give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

With that said, if we trade down and a QB we could have had ends up being a star while we draft a JAG then yes, I will call for his IMMEDIATE firing. But if we stay at 2, draft a highly regarded QB, and he doesn't pan out, I won't kill him for it.

[Dah-Dee]

I don't see the Commanders trading down in what appears to be considered a very good but also top-heavy QB draft, with experts apparently seeing a gap between the top 3 and the next group.

 

Even if Washington did trade down, I don't see them taking either McCarthy or Penix, for different Air Raid related reasons. McCarthy simply doesn't have the arm strength for all the expected downfield shots in Kingsbury's version of the offense; and Penix is a statue not suited for the heavy emphasis on RPO in Kingsbury's scheme. Remember, Kingsbury created his flavor of Air Raid to suit Mahomes at Texas Tech.

 

If they did trade down and still went QB, I'd expect them to target Nix, who, like Williams, Maye and Daniels, has the arm, accuracy and mobility to run Kingsbury's offense. Nix isn't as good as Williams off-platform; maybe doesn't have quite the arm strength of Maye; and isn't quite as fast/elusive as Daniels - but he's arguably second of the four in all those categories.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[The Consigliere]

15 hours ago, MartinC said:

Fun fact Rich Gannon was our number 3 QB in 1993. Ended up starting a couple of games in a complete mess of a season. 
 

Another one who got away.

Yeah, I remember, thought about mentioning it, then had PTSD thinking about that classic Jets game from December where he and Gannon split snaps, and we had the worst performance we'd had since probably the seventies. Moved along. Gannon's a weird one. System made him, or blossomed late? You decide...kinda thing. Awful QB from '87-'93, had an adequate run as a spot starter for the Chiefs afterwards, and then suddenly was an All Pro for the raiders in his mid thirties from '99-'02. Totally bizarre. Not bad cv when you look at KC/Oakland years, but blech in Minny and Washington. 

[mistertim]

47 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Wait, how exactly is Daniels "more ready to play" than Maye?

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Wait, how exactly is Daniels "more ready to play" than Maye?

Probably the mobility factor meaning you can run a super simplified RPO based one read and go offense(basically like what we ran in 2012)allowing him to come in and look comfortable.

 

With Maye I think you throw the entire passing game at him and let him sink early before he eventually swims like a champ.

[ThatNFLChick]

13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Wait, how exactly is Daniels "more ready to play" than Maye?

 

 

• He has more experience
• Has played in a variety of offenses
• We can lean more heavily on the run game while he learns the intricate parts of the offense
• He's clean mechnically

*If we run an Air Raid offense, Maye definitely has an edge - though its the simplest offense to run so likely won't be too much for anyone*

 

With the Anthony Lynn hire it seems like we might be running some sort of hybrid of Air Raid, RPO and maybe even WCO. 

Edited February 14 by ThatNFLChick

[The Consigliere]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Maybe another way for me to put it is, if you hit it on a high ceiling you are set.  Drake and Daniels IMO have a high ceiling.

 

Yes there is some bust concern with both.  It's rare where there isn't bust concern.  Herbert had plenty bust concern -- accuracy.   So did Watson -- decision making.  So did Mahomes -- system QB can he adjust to the pros?  Josh Allen -- accuracy.

 

But their upside was high.   Peters is a smart dude. Klingsbury for his faults supposedly is very good at diciphering QBs -- same dude who supposedly discovered Mahomes.

 

We should be in good hands I wouldn't fret them making a bad decision.  It's possible they blow it in the end but it won't be because they can't make a decision that exceeds the average fan.

 

 

Kingsbury was one of the first to believe in Mahomes as a quarterback, taking a chance on him when few colleges were willing to do so.

“They were really the first and only,” Mahomes said of Texas Tech. “I didn’t get recruited by [many schools]; I got a couple other offers from smaller schools in the Texas area... I credit Kingsbury, because he was the one who came down and saw me, talked to me, talked to my family and believed in me. That’s the reason I’m in this position — because he gave me a chance.”

 

One of the things the quarterback respects the most about Kingsbury is his decision to allow Mahomes to continue the style of quarterback play that he had always had, respecting his tools as a prospect rather than suppressing them with too much coaching.

“I think he was early in the game of saying ‘let’s maximize your strengths,’” said Mahomes. “He would teach me how to be more mechanical in the pocket and with the fundamentals of the game, but he never restricted who I was — and that’s amplified with Coach Reid now. I could’ve went somewhere and they could’ve made me this pocket quarterback, but he let me be who I was on (and off) the field — and it helped me become the player I am.”

 

Kingsbury’s words to Mahomes as he left for the NFL Draft still stick with the quarterback today, fueling him to continually get better.

“I think the biggest piece of advice he gave me was to ‘be all-in either way’ — whether that was coming back to Texas Tech [to] win a Big 12 championship [and] make my draft grade go higher, or make that step and go to the NFL; give everything I have. That’s what I got from a lot of people around me, and it all worked out. I was projected a second or third-round pick, [so I] did everything I could at the combine training, then got to the Chiefs and kept that same mentality — and it’s helped me become the player I am.”

 

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2022/9/8/23340926/chiefs-qb-patrick-mahomes-credits-cardinals-coach-kliff-kingsbury-for-helping-him-develop

 

 

 

Anyone want to back that "I was projected to go in round 2 or round 3" comment. That's flat out nonsense right? My problem is I can't remember where the guys were ranked precombine, I'm absolutely certain where he was projected post combine because that was my second dynasty rookie draft ever, and I missed out on the guy repeatedly, only landed him on one team. He basically, from what I recall, was projected in the 15-40 range from what I remember pre-combine, basically somebody might reach for the ceiling inside the top 10-20, otherwise he'd go mid first to mid 2nd. I never heard 3rd round ever, and I dont think 2nd round was seriously debated at least after the combine. I can't remember though. 

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

 

• He has more experience
• Has played in a variety of offenses
• We can lean more heavily on the run game while he learns the intricate parts of the offense
• He's clean mechnically

*If we run an Air Raid offense, Maye definitely has an edge - though its the simplest offense to run so likely won't be too much for anyone*

 

With the Anthony Lynn hire it seems like we might be running some sort of hybrid of Air Raid, RPO and maybe even WCO. 

 

I think it is, at best, a wash.

• And? Maye has 30 starts, so it's not like he started for half a season or something
• So did Maye
• Maye has legs too and can run. Not as fast as Daniels but certainly not a slouch and reported 4.6 speed
• Daniels is certainly more consistent mechanically so he has an edge there
• Maye has an edge when it comes to experience throwing to all levels of the field, as well as tight window and anticipation throws

[MartinC]

48 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

Yeah, I remember, thought about mentioning it, then had PTSD thinking about that classic Jets game from December where he and Gannon split snaps, and we had the worst performance we'd had since probably the seventies. Moved along. Gannon's a weird one. System made him, or blossomed late? You decide...kinda thing. Awful QB from '87-'93, had an adequate run as a spot starter for the Chiefs afterwards, and then suddenly was an All Pro for the raiders in his mid thirties from '99-'02. Totally bizarre. Not bad cv when you look at KC/Oakland years, but blech in Minny and Washington. 

 

I reacll a game I went to in Miami - Monday night game I think. Cary Conklin started and put up the absolute worst performance i have seen from a QB in my life. Even the home fans booed him! Gannon came in late in relief and threw a TD which made the score look better than it was. I remember Dan Marino throwing a long TD pass.

 

Dan Marino (even at that stage of his career) versus Cary Conklin was not a contest!

[ThatNFLChick]

26 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think it is, at best, a wash.

• And? Maye has 30 starts, so it's not like he started for half a season or something
• So did Maye
• Maye has legs too and can run. Not as fast as Daniels but certainly not a slouch and reported 4.6 speed
• Daniels is certainly more consistent mechanically so he has an edge there
• Maye has an edge when it comes to experience throwing to all levels of the field, as well as tight window and anticipation throws

 

Maye played in 2 different iterations of the Air Raid so not the same as playing in different offenses. He was still in the Air Raid in 2023 it just wasn't Lingo's. Lindsey still ran the Air Raid.

 

 

Edited February 14 by ThatNFLChick

[skinsfan66]

3 hours ago, NOLA2DC said:

Every year people recite the same critiques of dual threat QBs

They critique all QB's for all different reasons just like they are doing now to the 2024 QB's. Nobody wants a statue, mobile QB's come in all sizes and styles, some are better passers, some can run you over with a stiff arm, some are quicker, some have a better head for the game, some can lead and be average at both or what ever. The dual treats are a staple now it's all on evaluation.   

[FootballZombie]

36 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I think it is, at best, a wash.

 

I can only see the argument that he is more ready if your sticking him in a super read option dependent O.

 

Otherwise its a wash there for me too.

[Darrell Green Fan]

7 hours ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

The Josh Rosen thing made sense to me. He was barely the 4th QB taken in that draft, had an injury history (had to have surgery on the shoulder of his throwing arm in college), had a ton of maturity/leadership issues, and Kingsbury DID NOT draft him. Steve Wilks drafted him and then was fired after they went 3-13 and Rosen finished his rookie season with Bryce Young rookie season numbers (11 TDs and 14 INTs). When Kingsbury was hired he wanted to select his own QB for his system and they had the #1 pick so he could. 

Yeah I don't remember anyone being high on Josh Rosen after his rookie season.  It came as no surprise that they went QB the following year.