The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, mac8887 said:

I would debate barring injury that daniels floor is the highest. 2 years in a row he completed over 70% of his passes and most importantly, he doesn't turn the ball over. Both the high completion rate and the low turnover numbers equals high floor. The only somewhat valid argument I see that daniels floor is lowers than maye and williams is his slight build could lead to injury. I still don't fully agree with that because he has yet to suffer any significant injury and he had played a lot of football. 

 

I'd argue that maybe daniels ceiling is a little lower because his arm strength not as good as the other 2, but his speed could surely make up for that.

 

I hear people say that maye has the highest floor and then list his size as the reason. Not sure that those 2 equate. Mitch trubisky had great size and he was a bust. I'd like to hear some valid arguments as to why maye is the safer pick with I higher floor, while being less accurate and more turnover prone, while having to overcome his bad footwork.

Daniels had high accuracy #s because he was throwing to guys who are wide open. He has two WRs going #1 overall and an outstanding OL. He's not gonna have WRs running that open in the NFL. Using raw statistics like that to project college prospects to the pros is silly. Remember even Dwayne Haskins had 50 TDs in college and an insane completion %. How'd that work out?(may he rest in peace)He's a one read and go QB who doesn't consistently make tight, anticipatory throws into coverage. You gotta make your money down the middle of the field in the NFL and Daniels struggles in that area(doesn't mean he can't improve, but the track record historically is not great).

 

His floor is lower because so much of his game is his mobility and you're banking on him developing pro passing ability to compliment that running style which, historically, does not happen. Also, run first QBs tend to fade quick. That isn't even factoring in Daniels's body type increasing his chance of injury or the fact that he's an older prospect, reducing his window even more.

 

On the flip side, Maye's style of play translates very well to the pros. And his size/overall build means his chances of getting hurt are less. Of course nothing is guaranteed, Luck was a big guy too and got hurt a lot. He can come in and at the very least be in that league average tier because he'll always be able to sustain passing offense with his ability to make throws downfield.

[DWinzit]

As sick as I am already of the QB draft discussions...it feels so good to not be discussing whether we are better with FA Trubisky or Darnold or first round picks Willis, RIdder or Corral!!! 

Edited February 15 by DWinzit

[Warhead36]

3 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

As sick as I am already getting of the QB draft discussions...it feels so good to not be discussing whether we are better with FA Trubisky or Darnold or first round picks Willis, RIdder or Corral!!! 

Yeah its nice to be shopping for Rolls Royces and Lamborghinis instead of Ford Pintos.

[FootballZombie]

lol

 

They can both be great players people.

Just b/c u prefer a guy does not mean the other dude is the worst possible version of what they are.

 

Peeps bustin' out the flamethrowers 4 no reason.

[Koolblue13]

14 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I would debate barring injury that daniels floor is the highest.

This is what floor means. The possibility of a lot of missed time and a very short career, is very high for a QB with his build that leaves the pocket so quickly.

 

Not that he has a history of injuries. He doesn't, but the style of play does and it's very common. 

[mac8887]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Daniels had high accuracy #s because he was throwing to guys who are wide open. He has two WRs going #1 overall and an outstanding OL. He's not gonna have WRs running that open in the NFL. Using raw statistics like that to project college prospects to the pros is silly. Remember even Dwayne Haskins had 50 TDs in college and an insane completion %. How'd that work out?(may he rest in peace)He's a one read and go QB who doesn't consistently make tight, anticipatory throws into coverage. You gotta make your money down the middle of the field in the NFL and Daniels struggles in that area(doesn't mean he can't improve, but the track record historically is not great).

 

His floor is lower because so much of his game is his mobility and you're banking on him developing pro passing ability to compliment that running style which, historically, does not happen. Also, run first QBs tend to fade quick. That isn't even factoring in Daniels's body type increasing his chance of injury or the fact that he's an older prospect, reducing his window even more.

 

On the flip side, Maye's style of play translates very well to the pros. And his size/overall build means his chances of getting hurt are less. Of course nothing is guaranteed, Luck was a big guy too and got hurt a lot. He can come in and at the very least be in that league average tier because he'll always be able to sustain passing offense with his ability to make throws downfield.

You've made the same argument about daniels over and over and it's thoroughly debunked. People have posted plenty of videos on this board of daniels throwing over the middle, he goes through his reads very well and finds the open receivers, would you rather him throw to covered receivers? 

 

What you seem to be suggesting is that daniels receivers are so good that his 1st read is always running down the field wide open. I doubt that's the case, he's going through his reads and finding the open guy.

 

You say using raw statistics is silly, buy more and more the league is leaning into analytics and statistics to make their decisions and plus you said nothing about his low turnover numbers. On top of that you call his play "running style" while being statically the best passer of the 3. It's just a bonus that daniels is an elite runner.

 

Finally I asked for reasons for maye without using his size, and his size is the only reason you gave. It seams to me that maye is the riskier pick. He is more turnover prone, less accurate, and has major footwork issues. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

This is what floor means. The possibility of a lot of missed time and a very short career, is very high for a QB with his build that leaves the pocket so quickly.

 

Not that he has a history of injuries. He doesn't, but the style of play does and it's very common. 

No floor means that he is not a good player, on top of that, daniels is a pocket passer first, where do you get that he leaves the pocket quickly, again I'd argue otherwise.

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I hear people say that maye has the highest floor and then list his size as the reason. Not sure that those 2 equate. Mitch trubisky had great size and he was a bust. I'd like to hear some valid arguments as to why maye is the safer pick with I higher floor, while being less accurate and more turnover prone, while having to overcome his bad footwork.

 

Maye doesn't have bad footwork. He has inconsistent footwork on shorter level 1 throws, where he can get sloppy and that can cause balls to sail or be behind.

 

One of the main reasons IMO that Maye has a higher floor is because he has plenty of experience successfully throwing to the middle in the 2nd level, into tight windows, and with anticipation. While many college QBs can get by without doing a lot of that, they're absolute must-haves in the NFL. So having that demonstrated ability in college likely means les of a learning curve with making those throws in the NFL. 

 

His prototypical size is certainly helpful, but not the primary reason.

[Warhead36]

I can't anymore. I'm done.

[wit33]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

This is what floor means. The possibility of a lot of missed time and a very short career, is very high for a QB with his build that leaves the pocket so quickly.

Can you provide examples of elite dual-threat individuals with notably brief careers?

 

Additionally, how do you define a "very short" career in your perspective? 
 

Truly interested to hear your thoughts, especially when your other team has an elite dual threat guy playing on a second contract. 

[mac8887]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Maye doesn't have bad footwork. He has inconsistent footwork on shorter level 1 throws, where he can get sloppy and that can cause balls to sail or be behind.

 

One of the main reasons IMO that Maye has a higher floor is because he has plenty of experience successfully throwing to the middle in the 2nd level, into tight windows, and with anticipation. While many college QBs can get by without doing a lot of that, they're absolute must-haves in the NFL. So having that demonstrated ability in college likely means les of a learning curve with making those throws in the NFL. 

 

His prototypical size is certainly helpful, but not the primary reason.

Thank you, you actually included what I was asking for in an argument for maye. I'm torn on the 2, I like them both. While I think maye might have a higher ceiling in the long run, I believe with jaydens abilities, a good oc can scheme it up with him as early as next year to make us at least a playoff contender, Ala rg3 rookie year. I'm just not sure if that's going to be sustainable for long term success. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

 

Wrong thread.

 

Edited February 15 by CommanderInTheRye

[Jumbo]

16 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah its nice to be shopping for Rolls Royces and Lamborghinis instead of Ford Pintos.

 

Ahem. As a yute, I had a 72 4-spd lime green pinto with a white vinyl top. Custom Craig PowerPlay 8-track with Jensen 6x9 triaxials on the back deck. Cut the holes out myself with a Bowie knife (absolutely true--came out a bit ragged but still worked).  Drove it like a WWII jeep across all sorts of terrain and lawns in Alaska. It was an epic ride. Never caught on fire (the car, I wasn't quite as flame-resistant).

 

But I digress....

[HTTRDynasty]

This is why chemistry in the QB room matters so much.  You would think a room with Maye and Howell would never have this issue.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

43 minutes ago, mac8887 said:

I would debate barring injury that daniels floor is the highest. 2 years in a row he completed over 70% of his passes and most importantly, he doesn't turn the ball over. Both the high completion rate and the low turnover numbers equals high floor. The only somewhat valid argument I see that daniels floor is lowers than maye and williams is his slight build could lead to injury. I still don't fully agree with that because he has yet to suffer any significant injury and he had played a lot of football. 

 

I'd argue that maybe daniels ceiling is a little lower because his arm strength not as good as the other 2, but his speed could surely make up for that.

 

I hear people say that maye has the highest floor and then list his size as the reason. Not sure that those 2 equate. Mitch trubisky had great size and he was a bust. I'd like to hear some valid arguments as to why maye is the safer pick with I higher floor, while being less accurate and more turnover prone, while having to overcome his bad footwork.

 

I remember the Kirk -- Colt- RG3 debate like it was yesterday.   And I was one of the odd dudes who liked both Kirk and RG3, most here picked one and didn't care for the others.

 

But listening to Cooley among others sell that Kirk had a key component that many young QBs lack and that is throwing with anticipation.  In his mind and others its a major and key adjustment for a college QB to become a good pro QB.  And his point was Kirk for his faults, back in is younger days, threw with anticipation, which is a very big start for him as to his development. 

 

The thing that Kirk struggled with and arguably has gotten better at over the years is making tight window throws.  You don't always get that seperation that you do in college.

 

On that front, i think Daniels is fairly raw as to throwing with anticipation and he generally doesn't like to throw contested catches.  Maye on the other hand to my eyes is good on both fronts.  It's why i think Maye has the higher floor not Daniels.

 

With that caveat, that if Kingsbury thinks screw it lets 2012 style run Daniels like mad and if he gets hurt he gets hurt -- I do think Daniels would have a higher floor but am guessing he won't last playing like that.

Edited February 15 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

Maye at 11?

 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

This is why chemistry in the QB room matters so much.  You would think a room with Maye and Howell would never have this issue.

 

 

 

Also knowing these guys personalities.

 

Many leaks about Mac Jones being a head case and that wasn't really out there at least not to the public before that draft.

[DWinzit]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Also knowing these guys personalities.

 

Many leaks about Mac Jones being a head case and that wasn't really out there at least not to the public before that draft.

Agreed, there was very little of this out there. It all about how Mac had charged onto the scene over the second half of the year for Bama. There was a poster here that could not stand Mac and continued posting negatively about him (and about Snyder) Pretty sure he said he was leaving the site, can't recall his name but he brought this and more up about Mac. 

 

By all I know, Zappe is solid as a #2 QB and person

[wit33]

Is there a source or individual compiling data on the number of anticipation throws attempted and completed by each quarterback? Also, are there widely accepted criteria to determine what qualifies as an anticipated throw?

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

A lot of angst on this thread.

 

A.  Some with Caleb are bust

 

B.  People posting t feels gleefully when anyone slams these QBs especially Maye

 

C.  Zero Sum game decision between Maye and Daniels -- where if someone doesn't get the QB they want its a sad day.

 

For a team sitting pretty picking #2, feels stressful here for no reason IMO.  We IMO will likely be good with any of these three options for different reasons and even if people don't buy that, we got a lot of smart people pooling together to make a good call on the pick.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Is there a source or individual compiling data on the number of anticipation throws attempted and completed by each quarterback? Also, are there widely accepted criteria to determine what qualifies as an anticipated throw?

 

 

 

Nope, you watch yourself and make your own conclusions.  Nothing I said there hasn't been said by other draftniks.  But I don't care if people agree or not with my observations.  The fun thing about the draft is everyone can make their own.

 

And I've been very balanced I think on Daniels.   I am the one who pushed him hard months back here.  Love him as a runner -- defended him against those who said he's a straight line runner, love his deep ball.  But he's got weaknesses too.  He's got some rabid fans on this thread, and that's cool.   He has some things to work on IMO like all these guys, do.

 

The hyperbole that exists during draft season pro and con of these guys, I've gotten used to -- I try to ignore it and go for balance the best I can.

[mac8887]

5 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Is there a source or individual compiling data on the number of anticipation throws attempted and completed by each quarterback? Also, are there widely accepted criteria to determine what qualifies as an anticipated throw?

 

 

Yeah, people keep telling me that daniels doesn't throw over the middle with anticipation, but nearly every video I've seen of people putting a draft grade on him by critiquing his play show him throwing the ball over the middle with anticipation, while layering it in between the linebackers and the dbs very often. 

 

The knock I see of him on video with people actualling showing plays be run is that sometimes he comes off his reads to quickly and looks to another receiver just before his 1st read breaks open. That seems like a good problem to have because at least he's going through his reads quickly.

[CommanderInTheRye]

21 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Maye at 11?

 

 

 

That's insane!

 

Maye would Have to go on an axe murdering spree to have an anvil type fall like that...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Nope, you watch yourself and make your own conclusions.  Nothing I said there hasn't been said by other draftniks.  But I don't care if people agree or not with my observations.  The fun thing about the draft is everyone can make their own.

 

And I've been very balanced I think on Daniels.   I am the one who pushed him hard months back here.  Love him as a runner -- defended him against those who said he's a straight line runner, love his deep ball.  But he's got weaknesses too.  He's got some rabid fans on this thread, and that's cool.   He has some things to work on IMO like all these guys, do.

 

The hyperbole that exists during draft season pro and con of these guys, I've gotten used to -- I try to ignore it and go for balance the best I can.

 

I'm guessing I probably come across as really disliking Daniels in this thread due to the debates I've had about him. But I don't dislike him at all. I actually really enjoy watching him play. It's just that I have more concerns and questions about him than I do with Maye, which is why I prefer Maye.

[WashingtonRedWolves]

41 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

No chance in hell that Maye drops to 11. If we don't take him, NE will. They're done with Jones