The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Est.1974 said:

The discussion isn’t really about my statement, it’s about yours of not wanting a ‘Diva type QB’. That’s was widely disagreed with, thus the merry go round discussion that followed to define diva. 
 

So to go full circle, a QB being a diva or dickhead doesn’t bother me, however you care to define that. If they play and win games, that’ll do. Coaches can manage that and players will adapt as winning outweighs everything.

You should know me well enough to know I don’t care if my opinions are disagreed with. I listen, and I will adjust if I feel someone has changed my mind. But I haven’t. 
 

My opinion is I don’t want a diva. How I define diva is paramount to that opinion.

 

You and I view that lens different. In the context you are viewing it, though, I think we’re fairly close in opinion based on our definitions of what makes a QB a diva. So I don’t think we’re as far off as we seemed at the outset. 

[skinsfan66]

4 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

Even the top ones arent really working out. Take KC for example this year. They have struggled with dropped passes and boneheaded plays from the WR position because they could not afford to keep veteran guys there. Imagine that team with Hill right now. And then look at them without him. 

And Miami without Him like I have been posting, he is a game changer and not a QB.

[Rufus T Firefly]

[KDawg]

Just now, Rufus T Firefly said:

Six. Anything more, anything less is uncivilized.

[MartinC]

5 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Agreed.

 

I’m not that fussed if we got hold of a franchise QB who was either a) a diva or b) a dickhead. 

The problem there is divas and dickheads rarely become franchise QBs.

[rumplestilskin]

4 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

Even the top ones arent really working out. Take KC for example this year. They have struggled with dropped passes and boneheaded plays from the WR position because they could not afford to keep veteran guys there. Imagine that team with Hill right now. And then look at them without him. 

Naw, they are just cursed by T Swizzle. LOL

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

The problem there is divas and dickheads rarely become franchise QBs.

The problem there is divas and dickheads rarely become franchise QBs.

The problem there is divas and dickheads rarely become franchise QBs.

I’d like this three times if I could.

[Redskins 2021]

Did Tua brother declare for the draft?

[skinsfan66]

9 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

Did Tua brother declare for the draft?

Last I read he maybe trying to get another year and transfer to another school.

[mac8887]

Can't tell me that's only a 3 inch height difference, during the jets game they showed them together and sams top of his helmet looked like it stopped a Jacobys neck

[Skinsinparadise]

OK started my Caleb Williams watching.  2 games is enough though for me to get a superifical picture.  At a minimum i am not in the Caleb is overrated crowd which some are at in this thread.

 

I am closer to @clskinsfan @Going Commando on this and I know some others here too that are fans of his play.

 

The cliff notes for me:

 

Strengths

 

Accuracy is good on all three levels -- in routes, out routes, all of it

Nice touch on his throws

Really good deep ball

Sick arm strength -- including being able to throw deep off his back foot

Even though he does break the pocket a bit too much, he can stand in the pocket and make plays too

Sick level ball handilng skills reminds me some of RG3 on that front

Off platform skills are insane - based I've seen among college QBs albiet I already knew this from other watching

Good mobility-escapibility

 

Weaknesses

 

He's too in love with his dexterity in the pocket where he can get careless with ball security both in terns of fumbles and flipping the ball to receivers

Like Howell he can hold on to the ball too long which leads to sacks

 

Overall.  He has sick talent but IMO he needs to reign in his tendency to not give up on plays.  As to his personality, I am starting to digest it.  It feels like the red flags might be hypberbole to some extent but there are enough that its worth probing.  For me personally, character issues that concern me center on poor work ethic and being a bad teammate -- and neither of those items from what I've read are issues with him.  But I gather he's a bit weird.

 

 

 

 

[MartinC]

36 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’d like this three times if I could.

The machines are taking over and obviously thought my point needed emphasis!

[KDawg]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

OK started my Caleb Williams watching.  2 games is enough though for me to get a superifical picture.  At a minimum i am not in the Caleb is overrated crowd which some are at in this thread.

 

I am closer to @clskinsfan @Going Commando on this and I know some others here too that are fans of his play.

 

The cliff notes for me:

 

Strengths

 

Accuracy is good on all three levels -- in routes, out routes, all of it

Nice touch on his throws

Really good deep ball

Sick arm strength -- including being able to throw deep off his back foot

Even though he does break the pocket a bit too much, he can stand in the pocket and make plays too

Sick level ball handilng skills reminds me some of RG3 on that front

Off platform skills are insane - based I've seen among college QBs albiet I already knew this from other watching

Good mobility-escapibility

 

Weaknesses

 

He's too in love with his dexterity in the pocket where he can get careless with ball security both in terns of fumbles and flipping the ball to receivers

Like Howell he can hold on to the ball too long which leads to sacks

 

Overall.  He has sick talent but IMO he needs to reign in his tendency to not give up on plays.  As to his personality, I am starting to digest it.  It feels like the red flags might be hypberbole to some extent but there are enough that its worth probing.  For me personally, character issues that concern me center on poor work ethic and being a bad teammate -- and neither of those items from what I've read are issues with him.  But I gather he's a bit weird.

 

 

 

 

 

What you described is not a generational, can’t miss, high end QB prospect. It’s a good prospect with flaws that has a high ceiling and a low floor. 
 

I agree with a lot of it. Though I think there are a few more negatives to his play than you do, I agree with the positives. I’m concerned with the size despite the long arms, I’m concerned with how Notre Dame picked him apart (that’s the blue print now), I’m concerned with 3.2 average seconds to throw in college and I’m concerned with his anticipatory throws.  But damn if his off platform ability isn’t fun as hell. Dude makes things happen that shouldn’t… but that was Howell’s schtick, too, until it wasn’t (don’t get it twisted, Williams is more talented than Howell. But their weaknesses are similar)

 

So in the sense that everyone thinks this guy is a shoe in lock to be a can’t miss prospect (or at least they had thought that way going into this season - that narrative seems to have slowed a bit) makes him overrated as hell in my eyes. 
 

But as far as top QB prospects in this class? He’s definitely top 3. 

[MartinC]

5 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

 

There are definitely players that don't like him. There are stories of these elaborate hand signals Rodgers would use and expect everyone to know, but wouldn't teach to new guys. So those players would somehow have to learn them on their own, without even knowing what it is that they don't know (the classic "unknown unknown", not to go Donald Rumsfeld on everyone).

 

That strikes me as petty and immature diva behavior from #12. But when you perform like he did in his prime, nobody bats an eye! 

You can get away with that stuff - to a point - when you have proven yourself. Walk into a locker room or huddle and pull that stuff as a rookie or someone with no record of success and you will fall on your face quickly. 
 

Thats why I say it’s hard for a diva or dickhead to become a franchise QB. Walk into an NFL locker on with that act and you are setting yourself up to fail. Show you can take a team to the show and help guys get paid via performance and winning and you kind of earn the right to have things done the way you want - to a point.
 

Also being demanding - see Manning Peyton - works when it’s clear it’s all about winning. If it’s about showing power and just being an ass it will get old at some point (see Rodgers Aaron).

 

One of the best sports teams on the planet are the New Zealand Rugby team. The All Blacks. Island nation with more sheep than people but have been the world best at Rugby for decades.

They only have one team rule - no dickheads. 

[clskinsfan]

32 minutes ago, KDawg said:

don’t get it twisted, Williams is more talented than Howell

By a long mile. Williams playmaking ability is lightyears better than Howells ever was in college. Just saying. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

By a long mile. Williams playmaking ability is lightyears better than Howells ever was in college. Just saying. 

I said that, didn't I?

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

What you described is not a generational, can’t miss, high end QB prospect. It’s a good prospect with flaws that has a high ceiling and a low floor. 

 

I don't care about generational labels one way or another so I wasn't watching judging that part.  I am just watching from the context of I do think he's likely going to be a good pro.

 

High ceiling IMO.  Medium floor with the disclaimer of his personality.  I think its hard for us to gauge that from a distance.  But I am big believer in probing deep into these guys character and personality.  And that to me is the wild card.  But teams have to do their homework on that front.

 

 

36 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’m concerned with the size despite the long arms

 

Not ideal size.  But I don't buy the sub 6 foot post that someone put here.  But will see.  To me he looks at least as tall as Sam.  Look if Kyler Murray pre-ACL injury can be a decent QB in this league, I don't see how Caleb can't be.  That to me is the floor for Caleb as far as a pure player.

 

36 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’m concerned with how Notre Dame picked him apart (that’s the blue print now)

 

I looked at his PFF grades just now, it was his only bad performance to their eyes. Only sub 60 score.  I just watched that game.  Notre Dame was both pressuring him and had his receivers draped.    He had no chance.  If that's the blueprint, it works against any QB.    But I do think he made it worse but throwing into tight coverage anyway.  I think he had the right idea at times when they were playing man to take off and run.   He had some moments in that game but overall struggled.  But I agree he should have reigned it in versus forcing throws in that game.

 

36 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’m concerned with his anticipatory throws.  But damn if his off platform ability isn’t fun as hell. Dude makes things happen that shouldn’t… but that was Howell’s schtick, too, until it wasn’t (don’t get it twisted, Williams is more talented than Howell. But their weaknesses are similar)

 

 

To me its like saying both pitchers major in throwing with heat.  One throws it 93 MPH and the other throws it 100 MPH.   Caleb being out of the world at it versus just good IMO makes a clear difference. 

 

36 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

But as far as top QB prospects in this class? He’s definitely top 3. 

 

Yeah all three are intriguing to me.  And for all three their personalities are relevant.  I do agree on the surface Caleb has the red flags on that front.  But will see.  These teams have months to probe everything about them.  I recall it took some time but things tend to leak during the draft process.  I recall early on I had no idea Carson Strong was so weird and didn't come off prepared in interviews but that ultimately leaked.  Ditto that Corral didn't interview well.

 

lol, its going to be a long four months of this stuff. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

Caleb has electrifying play-making but is on the shorter side. Daniels is taller and has Lamar-type running ability and a great deep ball but is skinny. Maye is taller and has a thicker frame but has a tendency to get sacked a lot.

 

Very curious how our new FO will grade these three guys.

[clskinsfan]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I said that, didn't I?

Not really. You said that was Howell's schtick too. When Howell never sniffed Williams schtick at all imo. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, clskinsfan said:

Not really. You said that was Howell's schtick too. When Howell never sniffed Williams schtick at all imo. 

 

"but that was Howell’s schtick, too, until it wasn’t (don’t get it twisted, Williams is more talented than Howell. But their weaknesses are similar)"

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't care about generational labels one way or another so I wasn't watching judging that part.  I am just watching from the context of I do think he's likely going to be a good pro.

 

High ceiling IMO.  Medium floor with the disclaimer of his personality.  I think its hard for us to gauge that from a distance.  But I am big believer in probing deep into these guys character and personality.  And that to me is the wild card.  But teams have to do their homework on that front.

 

 

 

Not ideal size.  But I don't buy the sub 6 foot post that someone put here.  But will see.  To me he looks at least as tall as Sam.  Look if Kyler Murray pre-ACL injury can be a decent QB in this league, I don't see how Caleb can't be.  That to me is the floor for Caleb as far as a pure player.

 

 

I looked at his PFF grades just now, it was his only bad performance to their eyes. Only sub 60 score.  I just watched that game.  Notre Dame was both pressuring him and had his receivers draped.    He had no chance.  If that's the blueprint, it works against any QB.    But I do think he made it worse but throwing into tight coverage anyway.  I think he had the right idea at times when they were playing man to take off and run.   He had some moments in that game but overall struggled.  But I agree he should have reigned it in versus forcing throws in that game.

 

 

To me its like saying both pitchers major in throwing with heat.  One throws it 93 MPH and the other throws it 100 MPH.   Caleb being out of the world at it versus just good IMO makes a clear difference. 

 

 

Yeah all three are intriguing to me.  And for all three their personalities are relevant.  I do agree on the surface Caleb has the red flags on that front.  But will see.  These teams have months to probe everything about them.  I recall it took some time but things tend to leak during the draft process.  I recall early on I had no idea Carson Strong was so weird and didn't come off prepared in interviews but that ultimately leaked.  Ditto that Corral didn't interview well.

 

lol, its going to be a long four months of this stuff. 

 

There is zero shot Williams is sub 6. He looks like Howell size wise. Almost to a tee. Height and weight. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a touch taller (talking eighths of an inch).

 

The Notre Dame game was a different blueprint than other teams. They brought edge pressures that other teams didn't. They made Williams stay in the pocket. They did an excellent job contain rushing and not going for the big play/sacks. By keeping Williams in the pocket and closing it around him, the forced him to read the field and throw. He didn't do that well at all. And that's concerning going to the next level. That was the only game he played a real defense. And they kept him in the pocket and forced him to throw in under 3.2.

 

Although he struggled a touch with Arizona and Oregon, too. (14/25, 219 1/0 & 19/34, 291, 1/0). But those being "struggle" games are complimentary of his actual talent. 

 

One thing I found just now when actually looking at his stats, and based on your Murray comment I went and looked at his rushing stats.

 

Dude doesn't run. He extends. Big time. And he's great at it. The one thing you'll never catch me knocking is his off platform ability. It's off the charts. But he has 97 carries for 142 yards this year. 

 

It's going to be a really long few months.

 

If we were drafting a guy strictly on traits it's Maye. Size and speed.

 

If it's on off platform ability its Williams.

 

If it's on raw potential it's Daniels. 

 

If it's none of the above it's signing Cousins and praying

[FootballZombie]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

These teams have months to probe everything about them.  I recall it took some time but things tend to leak during the draft process.

 

Yeah, gotta leave space for added information.

 

Stock for guys like Daniels and Maye likely explode at combine time.

Somebody is probably gonna spell their name wrong on the wonderlick and have people freaking out.

 

Somebody might have small hands...

 

[wit33]

If the personality checks out, taking the safer route and drafting Daniels seems logical. It's a safe move as, from day one, you'd have a solid foundation to build a top rushing attack around year 1 on a rookie contract. 
 

 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

If the personality checks out, taking the safer route and drafting Daniels seems logical. It's a safe move as, from day one, you'd have a solid foundation to build a top rushing attack around year 1 on a rookie contract. 
 

 

 

I don't think Daniels is the safer route, personally.

 

I think Maye is safest. Has the size, speed, athleticism. Traits wise he is by far the most NFL-like of the primary three QBs. But his ceiling just isn't as high as Williams or Daniels.

 

Daniels is actually probably the biggest boom/bust of the three. He could be an absolute disaster. Or Lamar redux.

 

Williams is probably not going to ever suck. But I'm not sold on him being the stud that many thought he'd be (hence the overrated tag by me). 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Six. Anything more, anything less is uncivilized.