The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Sorry, but as I discover more news emerging about Caleb Williams, the less I'd want him being the face of the franchise. 

 

The latest one I discovered --- he ducked out of his team's Holiday Bowl game -- not a great sign for someone who's supposed to be a team leader.  Ironically, his backup led USC to a solid win! 

 

I get the fact that Williams doesn't want to get injured before he declares for the draft, but his decision to skip the game doesn't say much to how he valued his teammates, the USC fans, and even the Bowl organizers who selected a 7-5 USC team, assuming Williams would be a big draw.

Drake Maye and Jayden Daniels both skipped their bowls as well.  It’s not uncommon at all.  Williams actually attended the bowl game and congratulated Miller after the game.

[RWJ]

For a long time now most of the QBs entering the draft skip their Bowl games and some the Combine for their Pro Days.  Not saying I agree with it but it's their choice. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

All three are flawed. None are can’t miss generational type talents.

 

Having said that, there is a lot of reasons any of the three can be good or bust.

 

Short summary for me:

 

Williams: Off platform is unreal, strong arm, athletic. Breaks down versus pressure, "short", holds the ball too long, deep drop backs.

 

Maye: Can make all the throws, experience behind bad OLs, has great deep ball touch. He disappears against the best defenses, doesn’t handle pressure well.

 

Daniels: Good arm talent, the only one of the three that has an elite physical trait: his speed (though Maye being 6-4 and fast is damn close). He doesn’t read the field at all, waits too long to throw the ball on certain concepts (like hitches) and has a little bit of the “**** it I’m going deep” mentality.

 

I've watched a lot of Maye and Daniels at this point and have read a ton on them.  So I am confident in my own opinion on them -- no per se of course that I have the definitive answer on any of them but enough to not be swayed much by other people's takes although I enjoy reading them.  Caleb I haven't really dived in but I've seen the sick arm talent and off platform ability while watching other players but I need to just watch him to form an opinion to hang on.

 

My summary:

 

Daniels, so so thrower off platform but an amazing runner off platform, good arm, throws a very catchable ball -- changes speeds well on his throws and throws a nice deep ball in part because he puts good air-arc on his throws.  Amazing runner.  I don't buy the sub 4 speed that some think he has but will see.  It looks to my eyes in that 4.45 range but what makes him a great runner is his vision and elusiveness.  You can disrupt him up the middle and fluster him in the pocket and he is unwilling to make tight window throws -- so he doesn't throw much with anticipation aside from the deep ball but it does help him avoid picks.

 

Maye, strong arm and made some of the most wicked throws I've seen out of a college QB that I watched in years, thrives especially with 2nd level passes in between the numbers, didn't have a playmaker who made electric plays for him like Daniels did, processes quickly in the pocket, quick release, makes some wicked off platform throws but he's also sacked too much when he rolls out of the pocket, he's willing to make contested throws but his decision making on that front isn't always hot.  He can run and is a real threat with his legs.  His accuracy is streaky and struggles some with out routes. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

 

 

[RWJ]

12 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

I go back to Baltimore.  It all began there.  Shen/Cunningham have ties to Raven's DC MacDonald.  Hortiz and MacDonald, I believe are tight and Shen/Cunningham know Hortiz as well.  I am just trying to connect dots and I might be missing them by a mile like the game of Battleship when you call a number and here your opponent say, "Miss!"  It could be possible and I say that lightly that I could be over the battleship.  Hortiz played a part in scouting and having input in Lamar Jackson.  Caleb is more like The "KC Kid", Mahomes.  I can see the interest, though. Time will tell. Thanks as always, HigSkin for the post as I always appreciate you and @Skinsinparadise posts!    

Edited December 28, 2023 by RWJ

[RWJ]

Sweet nugget there at the end, @HigSkin about Engram.  👍  The Raven's connection is strong.  To me, anyway.  😁

[Conn]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As to pure hype, I'd agree Maye would be just after Burrow, Williams, Lawrence.  Not quite the arm strength of Josh Allen but otherwise I get the parallels.  And agree he carried a high burden in that system which will help him in the NFL.  

 

 

Agree.

 

 

I hit back on this point in the dratt thread.  I don't get this point.  I know you don't mean it ths way but to me it unintentionally comes off almost complementary of Dan Snyder.  That the problem with the organization is just about holistic historical Washington Redskins-Football Team-Commanders issues.  Dan was just another symptom, not better, not worse alone the ride.

 

Dan wasn't a symptom of the disease.  He was the disease.  And its not even remotely a debatable point.  There is no other side to the discussion.  This team in the mid to late 70s through the early 90s was one of the finest organization in sports and well run with two legendary coaches and a hall of famer GM.

 

Dan Snyder was a douche on sterioids who infused the bad culture and hired people especially in the FO who sucked, were unqualified and yet interferred to no end.  Jay Gruden among others talked about it plenty.  He couldn't cut players he wanted to cut. 

 

He was forced players he didn't want.  One of the key FO people even admitted that the FO didn't even factor the coaches system when acquiring personnel.  The owner and a politician running the FO would overrule the coaches in personnel and even gameday decisions.  Dan would jock sniff his favorite players and undermine the coaches.  And they'd run that building like Darth Vadar -- with fear and create a scapegoating atmosphere.  People were underpaid and hated working there.  And that's before delving into the sexism and apparently culture of cheating fans out of money and the NFL too. 

 

Dan wouldn't give a rats ass about who was in that FO because he was often the defacto GM or his best buddy du jour.  They paid much less then league average for scouts.  They were cheap across the board.  The facility was a piece of garbage.  They served the players peanut butter and jelly sandwiches as dinner on the team plane.  Lunch was cheap junk food at the facility until Shanny changed it.  RG3 among others got hurt on their piece of crap field which they refused to upgrade until recent years. 

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg about Dan.  I don't recall you posting much on the Dan-Bruce threads so maybe you aren't as familiar with the depth of the dysfunction and his specific stamp on just about all of it.  It was beyond insane.  I'd put money we'd get a Netflix 6 part series on it someday.  And people who covered the team said it was much worse than just the stories that came out.  It's not a Washington Commanders thing -- its a Dan Snyder thing.  This team was for God sakes investigated by Congress and the dysfunction became a national story.  To say that Dan was epically bad would be an understatement.   

 

Now, We are about to get rid of the vistages of Dan's regime.  To expect anything similar to what's happened feels beyond crazy to me.  I know you don't like Harris' GM hire for 76ers.  But no one compares anything he's done there or elsewhere to Dan Snyder.  By almost every account, he's the opposite of Snyder. A nice guy, competent, doesn't interfere and spends every dollar he can on facilities, scouting and anything the team needs.

 

And even if for whatever reason you don't believe that -- whether you love him, hate him, no one accuses him of being dysfunctional like Dan.  lol, he does have two media critics (the rest love him) and one of the critics hits him over and over again mostly because he doesn't interferre and wants him to interferre but doesn't accuse him of being a bad person.   At a minimum this organization should be at least average.

 

According to the players the team has already made major strides in making life better for them.  They had a meeting to talk about what they can do to make things better for families and in that facility already made some improvements.  And will build a brand new facility soon.  They've already hired a sports science guy to help them with nutrition and recovery.  Spent almost $100 million to improve the stadium and about to spent a lot more.  They are just getting started. They didn't take over until a month before the season.

 

But expect at a minimum this organization to function like a normal organization versus the worst run organization in sports.  They are about to for the first time hire a pedigreed GM and put real money into scouting.  And then the GM will hire the HC.  At least that's what some reporters with ties to the organization have been told.  Though its consistent with what he's done elsewhere.  But even if you are thinking "meh", Dan Snyder was in his own orbit as the worst owner in sports.  He was the problem.  100% of it.

 

Extremely important post here. Can’t really be said any better.

Even if you fear that Harris will make the wrong hires, or those hires will make the wrong personnel moves…both things that WILL happen at points during Harris’s stewardship of the team, it’s unavoidable…it’s still a monumental upgrade. Good players will be able to grow and thrive here into great players at a great clip again, even if we aren’t an elite team at all times (or ever, if you want to get extreme and talk worst case scenarios). Because it’ll be a normal building full of normal football activities in a normal franchise for a normal owner. That’s not even budgeting for the possibility that Harris becomes a great owner or goes above and beyond (both things that are possible and worth hoping for)! That’s just allowing for the base level of competence and normalcy that you can almost guarantee we’ll have as a franchise. A special franchise-level QB prospect can develop and thrive in that environment.
 

We aren’t a black hole of hopeless incompetency that is sure to ruin its best players, moving forward. And thinking that we are, imo, kind of defeats the purpose of fighting for a new owner all these years and retroactively betrays a lack of awareness (or care) of just how uniquely bad Snyder was. Being wary that Harris will bring us a good team or even just operate as a competent owner because you didn’t like how he let The Process unfold misses the entire ****ing point and impact of the ACTUAL MIRACLE of getting a new owner. 

[Going Commando]

38 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Adding on to my comments -- I see Drake Maye skipped his teams bowl game too.  Granted the "Duke Mayo Bowl" is not on a par with the Holiday Bowl -- but it's a bad look for Maye too.

 

PS:  Rex Tomb got his post out faster than I did.

 

They're all skipping their bowl games.  Jayden Daniels too.  When you're a projected top five pick, it doesn't make sense to play in these games.

[Est.1974]

Well the Bears apparently wanted Payne before we threw a load of cash his way, so perhaps he becomes a bargaining chip to get to #1 for Williams, if that becomes the desired outcome.

[Conn]

58 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I KNOW you're just waiting for Thor to come out with his analysis.  Sitting on the edge of your seat checking his X every day. 

 

I have a prediction: he's going to fall in love with Daniels the way he fell in love with Malik Willis, who he was SURE the NFL got wrong because he wasn't the first QB drafted.  He was also super high on Lamar.  He thought the NFL messed up not drafted Lamar higher either.  He's somewhat right about that, though Lamar was a first round pick.  ** I don't follow him, I don't seek out information, so he might have already had something out. I'm not going to look.  

 

It seems like he has a type.  Some guys prefer blondes, he prefers athletic QBs with accuracy issues.  

 

Also, did anybody get Warren Sharp a better web-cam for Christmas?  So in his videos he's not literally saying, "ok, now we just click the button on the phone to change the view the other way..." and then taking a video of his computer monitor?  There are tons of OnlyFans content creators who would be more than willing to help him up his game in the digital media content presentation game.  Hell, he's already got the moustache for OnlyFans.  

 

(This post made almost entirely in jest for those who couldn't figure that out.)

The way these guys live in your head rent-free is amazing. Nobody even brought them up, you’re just marinating in it. You have the power to overcome, I believe in you VoR! 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Conn said:

Extremely important post here. Can’t really be said any better.

Even if you fear that Harris will make the wrong hires, or those hires will make the wrong personnel moves…both things that WILL happen at points during Harris’s stewardship of the team, it’s unavoidable…it’s still a monumental upgrade. Good players will be able to grow and thrive here into great players at a great clip again, even if we aren’t an elite team at all times (or ever, if you want to get extreme and talk worst case scenarios). Because it’ll be a normal building full of normal football activities in a normal franchise for a normal owner. That’s not even budgeting for the possibility that Harris becomes a great owner or goes above and beyond (both things that are possible and worth hoping for)! That’s just allowing for the base level of competence and normalcy that you can almost guarantee we’ll have as a franchise. A special franchise-level QB prospect can develop and thrive in that environment.
 

We aren’t a black hole of hopeless incompetency that is sure to ruin its best players, moving forward. And thinking that we are, imo, kind of defeats the purpose of fighting for a new owner all these years and retroactively betrays a lack of awareness (or care) of just how uniquely bad Snyder was. Being wary that Harris will bring us a good team or even just operate as a competent owner because you didn’t like how he let The Process unfold misses the entire ****ing point and impact of the ACTUAL MIRACLE of getting a new owner. 

 

Yep we are walking out of the Adams Family Haunted Mansion and into a normal house.  It's a radical change.  Being concerned that the next experience might be apples to apples is a bit crazy to me. 

 

The fact that weird things happened with Lurch in the Adams family home has ZERO to do with what happens now that we are in a normal house.  A normal house doesn't ensure competence but it spikes up the chances of competence dramatically.  

 

We've already heard reports that the buzz around the league is this is a coveted spot for GMs and coaches.    We used to hear the opposite especially in the last 5 years.

 

The idea that this team was dysfunctional in the past at grooming a QB -- my thought on that is "duh" they were dysfunctional with everything.  Maybe Harris hires a GM who doesn't live to his hype.  It's possible.  But the idea that Dan's dysfunction is relevant to the next regime is absolutely wrong.

 

We have a new owner.  And about to have a new GM and a new coach.  Dan, Martin Mayhew, and Ron Rivera's competence and style will have no relevance on the next group. 

[RWJ]

5 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Well the Bears apparently wanted Payne before we threw a load of cash his way, so perhaps he becomes a bargaining chip to get to #1 for Williams, if that becomes the desired outcome.

Is there an article or tweet from a legit source on this, 1974?  Or is this speculation? 

[Conn]

58 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Sorry, but as I discover more news emerging about Caleb Williams, the less I'd want him being the face of the franchise. 

 

The latest one I discovered --- he ducked out of his team's Holiday Bowl game -- not a great sign for someone who's supposed to be a team leader.  Ironically, his backup led USC to a solid win! 

 

I get the fact that Williams doesn't want to get injured before he declares for the draft, but his decision to skip the game doesn't say much to how he valued his teammates, the USC fans, and even the Bowl organizers who selected a 7-5 USC team, assuming Williams would be a big draw.

No offense but people need to get over this stuff. More and more big time prospects skip bowl games every year. It doesn’t reflect on leadership ability, what kind of teammate they are, or anything else. The conversation should have died the moment Christian McCaffrey did it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Conn said:

The way these guys live in your head rent-free is amazing. Nobody even brought them up, you’re just marinating in it. You have the power to overcome, I believe in you VoR! 

 

VOR is going to go nuts when Thor becomes the next GM, Jay returns as head coach and Chris Russell is hired to run PR for the team.   I feel him speaking it into existence.

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

VOR is going to go nuts when Thor becomes the next GM, Jay returns as head coach and Chris Russell is hired to run PR for the team.   I feel him speaking it into existence.

Primary @Conn Let's see where that Voice of Reason take us too.  Aye? 

Edited December 28, 2023 by RWJ

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, Wyvern said:

Sorry, but as I discover more news emerging about Caleb Williams, the less I'd want him being the face of the franchise. 

 

The latest one I discovered --- he ducked out of his team's Holiday Bowl game -- not a great sign for someone who's supposed to be a team leader. 

I hear he refuses to play with a leather helmet too. 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I KNOW you're just waiting for Thor to come out with his analysis.  Sitting on the edge of your seat checking his X every day. 

 

I have a prediction: he's going to fall in love with Daniels the way he fell in love with Malik Willis, who he was SURE the NFL got wrong because he wasn't the first QB drafted.  He was also super high on Lamar.  He thought the NFL messed up not drafted Lamar higher either.  He's somewhat right about that, though Lamar was a first round pick.  ** I don't follow him, I don't seek out information, so he might have already had something out. I'm not going to look.  

 

It seems like he has a type.  Some guys prefer blondes, he prefers athletic QBs with accuracy issues.  

 

Also, did anybody get Warren Sharp a better web-cam for Christmas?  So in his videos he's not literally saying, "ok, now we just click the button on the phone to change the view the other way..." and then taking a video of his computer monitor?  There are tons of OnlyFans content creators who would be more than willing to help him up his game in the digital media content presentation game.  Hell, he's already got the moustache for OnlyFans.  

 

(This post made almost entirely in jest for those who couldn't figure that out.)

Universal access to All22 film has a lot to answer for. 

6 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I hear he refuses to play with a leather helmet too. 

Bring back the single bar face mask!!

[Ball Security]

17 minutes ago, Conn said:

No offense but people need to get over this stuff. More and more big time prospects skip bowl games every year. It doesn’t reflect on leadership ability, what kind of teammate they are, or anything else. The conversation should have died the moment Christian McCaffrey did it. 

The number 2 WR for Tulane sat out yesterday’s bowl game because he may possibly get picked in one of the seven rounds. Most guys with NFL aspirations sit out in the non-playoff bowl games.

[Conn]

58 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

 

Very odd that the “TM” guy (who I think is just a fan but he’s been posted here a few times, ex-ESPN guy) says so confidently: “and for sure some coaches will stay”. Given cleaning house is not at all an odd thing to do and there’s no real reason to keep any assistant we have given the underperformance (and even regression) of every single positional unit on the team. 

[MartinC]

Just now, Ball Security said:

The number 2 WR for Tulane sat out yesterday’s bowl game because he may possibly get picked in one of the seven rounds. Most guys with NFL aspirations sit out in the non-playoff bowl games.

You’d be dumb not to. Just watch when the playoffs expand next year - Bowl games will be even less relevant.

1 minute ago, Conn said:

Very odd that the “TM” guy (who I think is just a fan but he’s been posted here a few times, ex-ESPN guy) says so confidently: “and for sure some coaches will stay”. Given cleaning house is not at all an odd thing to do and there’s no real reason to keep any assistant we have given the underperformance (and even regression) of every single positional unit on the team. 

Given we don’t even know who the GM and HC will be no one can say anything with any degree of confidence about anything draft, free agency or coaching staff/front office roles.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

Very odd that the “TM” guy (who I think is just a fan but he’s been posted here a few times, ex-ESPN guy) says so confidently: “and for sure some coaches will stay”. Given cleaning house is not at all an odd thing to do and there’s no real reason to keep any assistant we have given the underperformance (and even regression) of every single positional unit on the team. 

I didn’t make much out of that as I think it’s customary to let the new coach decide on staffers.  

[Est.1974]

34 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Is there an article or tweet from a legit source on this, 1974?  Or is this speculation? 

It was all over the net prior to him signing his deal way back when.

[mac8887]

2 hours ago, skinsfan66 said:

Daniels looks thin and could add a little weight to his frame. Lamar is built, Brissett would be a good keep if you draft him.

Also needs to learn to slide from what I saw and thought the same as you taking big hits with thin build.

Yes especially early on, I imagine after being in the league a few years he'll bulk up, Lamar was thin early but he has really added some muscle these last few years

[Voice_of_Reason]

49 minutes ago, Conn said:

The way these guys live in your head rent-free is amazing. Nobody even brought them up, you’re just marinating in it. You have the power to overcome, I believe in you VoR! 

I mean, I was entirely poking fun at myself in the post. At least that was my intent.

 

As to the power to overcome, after close to 40,000 posts, I think you should know that faith in my ability to overcome is misplaced.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

37 minutes ago, Conn said:

No offense but people need to get over this stuff. More and more big time prospects skip bowl games every year. It doesn’t reflect on leadership ability, what kind of teammate they are, or anything else. The conversation should have died the moment Christian McCaffrey did it. 

Agreed.

 

I’m not that fussed if we got hold of a franchise QB who was either a) a diva or b) a dickhead.