The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[wit33]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

 

Do we know he demanded any of that? I know the online communities came to that conclusion. I never saw any concrete evidence that he demanded any of it.

 

 

Randall Cobb says hello. 

Why wouldn’t a QB demand the resigning of passing targets they have good chemistry with? Where I can understand the QB having less pull is with highly paid passing targets that can impact roster construction, can’t get in way of that, but guys taking up 1-2% of the cap the QB should have some say there. 

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Eh. I don’t buy it. Sorry.

 

When I refer to diva I refer to people that are egotistical and non chalant. RG3 is a fantastic example (though he seems a lot more humbled as of late)

 

You don't buy it as in you don't think that's true? Or you don't think that's diva behavior? Because I am not making this up out of thin air.

[KDawg]

Just now, wit33 said:

 

 

Randall Cobb says hello. 

Why wouldn’t a QB demand the resigning of passing targets they have good chemistry with? Where I can understand the QB having less pull is with highly paid passing targets that can impact roster construction, can’t get in way of that, but guys taking up 1-2% of the cap the QB should have some say there. 

Randall Cobb says hello… what? The Jets asked for recs. He gave them. They signed him.

 

Thats what we know. 
 

Did Rodgers demand it? Maybe. Did the Jets just want to do everything in their power to make him happy? Maybe. I don’t know. Neither does anyone else outside of the Jets.

 

But I don’t think being demanding is diva-like behavior, anyways. It’s being demanding when you haven’t done much, from the outset, and getting in your own way because of it. 

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

You don't buy it as in you don't think that's true? Or you don't think that's diva behavior? Because I am not making this up out of thin air.

I don’t think he didn’t teach them the signals. I think there is more to that than the story that’s out there (and it’s in reference to Watson/Doubs, isn’t it?)

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

But I don’t think being demanding is diva-like behavior, anyways. It’s being demanding when you haven’t done much, from the outset, and getting in your own way because of it. 

 

Eli forcing his way onto the Giants fits your "diva" definition to a T.

[KDawg]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

Eli forcing his way onto the Giants fits your "diva" definition to a T.

He didn’t get in his own way. Yes, I agree. He started that way 100%. But he worked his ass off and earned the team’s trust and respect and didn’t lose the locker room. 
 

But yes, the way it started wasn’t promising.

[Rufus T Firefly]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

Do we know he demanded any of that? I know the online communities came to that conclusion. I never saw any concrete evidence that he demanded any of it.

 

In fact, on the Pat McAfee show awhile back he specifically said those things weren’t true. The Jets asked him for recs and he gave them. 
 

So, I’m not sure if any of that is true or if this is a media driven BS story. Could be true, I suppose, but I don’t know.

 

Most of his former teammates really have liked him. I don’t view that as diva behavior if your teammates like you (for the most part).

So what "diva QBs" do you have a record of being complained about but heir teammates. 

 

For me, demanding trades and threatening to retire multiple times sure seems like diva behavior. 

 

We don't have to discuss his CT nonsense and can just call it being "opinionated" but he lied about being vaccinated, risking his team getting punished in the middle of a playoff race.  And of course, that was everyone else's fault, not his. 

 

That doesn't make him "diva"? Fine, then I'd rather have a dive than whatever he is. Let's put it that way. 

[Est.1974]

I’m sure Rivera wouldn’t pick Williams. Not a safe enough pick…….

[CapsSkins]

Just now, KDawg said:

He didn’t get in his own way. Yes, I agree. He started that way 100%. But he worked his ass off and earned the team’s trust and respect and didn’t lose the locker room. 
 

But yes, the way it started wasn’t promising.

 

To that point, I think it ultimately all comes down to off-field evaluations of the player. Talking to coaches, teammates, the player himself. Doing homework on what kind of crowd they run with, how they spend their time off the field.

 

The NFL is a business first and foremost, so I don't begrudge any player prioritizing that side of things - "standing on business" as the Gen Z'ers would say. The question is whether they understand all that is in service of exemplary performance on the field, and vice versa - that exemplary on-field performance drives the rest of their business.

 

Hard for us fans to know because we just don't have visibility into that side of things. But I will give the new FO the benefit of doubt.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

To that point, I think it ultimately all comes down to off-field evaluations of the player. Talking to coaches, teammates, the player himself. Doing homework on what kind of crowd they run with, how they spend their time off the field.

 

The NFL is a business first and foremost, so I don't begrudge any player prioritizing that side of things - "standing on business" as the Gen Z'ers would say. The question is whether they understand all that is in service of exemplary performance on the field, and vice versa - that exemplary on-field performance drives the rest of their business.

 

Hard for us fans to know because we just don't have visibility into that side of things. But I will give the new FO the benefit of doubt.

I see this point completely. 
 

But I can’t give a regime who doesn’t exist yet the benefit of the doubt. Though I’m sure whoever they hire will be fine and trust worthy.

Edited December 28, 2023 by KDawg

[Est.1974]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

To that point, I think it ultimately all comes down to off-field evaluations of the player. Talking to coaches, teammates, the player himself. Doing homework on what kind of crowd they run with, how they spend their time off the field.

 

The NFL is a business first and foremost, so I don't begrudge any player prioritizing that side of things - "standing on business" as the Gen Z'ers would say. The question is whether they understand all that is in service of exemplary performance on the field, and vice versa - that exemplary on-field performance drives the rest of their business.

 

Hard for us fans to know because we just don't have visibility into that side of things. But I will give the new FO the benefit of doubt.

A new FO should have the courage to pick the most talented player….and then trust their processes to make it work. These prospects are 20-22 years old, let’s not label them for life already.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

So what "diva QBs" do you have a record of being complained about but heir teammates. 

 

For me, demanding trades and threatening to retire multiple times sure seems like diva behavior. 

 

We don't have to discuss his CT nonsense and can just call it being "opinionated" but he lied about being vaccinated, risking his team getting punished in the middle of a playoff race.  And of course, that was everyone else's fault, not his. 

 

That doesn't make him "diva"? Fine, then I'd rather have a dive than whatever he is. Let's put it that way. 

I think this is giving Green Bay a free pass for the way they handled everything as well, including how they handled letting him know they intended to trade him and not keep him while he was in the dark for 5 days while previously telling him different.

 

I have a hard time with Rodgers. He’s an asshole. And opinionated. And arrogant.

 

But I also don’t trust the way Green Bay played that whole thing and I think there were a lot of bad feelings on both sides… and it started when they drafted Jordan Love 5 years ago.

1 minute ago, Est.1974 said:

A new FO should have the courage to pick the most talented player….and then trust their processes to make it work. These prospects are 20-22 years old, let’s not label them for life already.

I don’t believe Williams is more talented than Daniels or Maye. The three are on equal footing in my eyes. They all do different things well and fall apart in different places.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I mean, isn't just about every quarterback a diva by definition, and then it's just the scale of divaness from there?

 

Elway refused to play for the Colts, forced a trade to the Broncos.  If it hadn't happened, he would have gone to play baseball. Oddly, he might have been as good a baseball player as football player, from my recollection, he was a DAMN GOOD baseball player.  He was drafted in the second round of the MLB draft by the Yankees in 1981.  

 

The only really good QB I don't recall having diva aspects was Joe Montana, but I was like 8 at the time so maybe I just missed them.  

 

Favre, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees, McNabb (with Eagles), Rivers (when not fathering children), Eli, all Divas in their own right.  Luck seemed rather down to earth.  Griffin was not.  Burrow ABSOLUTELY is a diva.  So is Allen.  Lamar.  Stafford's wife has a podcast or something.  

 

EDIT to add Mahomes, SUPER Diva.  Herbert, I dunno.  He plays in the pergatory that is the LA Chargers, so he could be a Diva, hell he could be an alien transported here from another galaxy and it wouldn't be reported on.  

 

I mean, I think they're all divas.  Some more overtly than others.

10 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

I’m sure Rivera wouldn’t pick Williams. Not a safe enough pick…….

What I'm shocked about is we actually turned all our cards in on time during the draft.  

 

Was it the Vikings a few years back that didn't turn their card in and got skipped, and then had to pick after?  I'm absolutely shocked that didn't happen to us.  

Edited December 28, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[Est.1974]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I don’t believe Williams is more talented than Daniels or Maye. The three are on equal footing in my eyes. They all do different things well and fall apart in different places.

Could be right.

 

but not wanting a ‘diva type’ QB must narrow your field.

[KDawg]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, isn't just about every quarterback a diva by definition, and then it's just the scale of divaness from there?

 

Elway refused to play for the Colts, forced a trade to the Broncos.  If it hadn't happened, he would have gone to play baseball. Oddly, he might have been as good a baseball player as football player, from my recollection, he was a DAMN GOOD baseball player.  He was drafted in the second round of the MLB draft by the Yankees in 1981.  

 

The only really good QB I don't recall having diva aspects was Joe Montana, but I was like 8 at the time so maybe I just missed them.  

 

Favre, Rodgers, Peyton, Brees, McNabb (with Eagles), Rivers (when not fathering children), Eli, all Divas in their own right.  Luck seemed rather down to earth.  Griffin was not.  Burrow ABSOLUTELY is a diva.  So is Allen.  Lamar.  Stafford's wife has a podcast or something.  

 

I mean, I think they're all divas.  Some more overtly than others.

I don’t think they’re all divas. I think they all have tremendous power. But arrogance and leadership are not diva traits. 
 

Allen is FAR from a diva. The amount of community work he does in the Buffalo area is crazy. He’s absolutely fantastic. 
 

I don’t think Brees or Peyton or Cunningham or Moon or Aikman or Luck or even Lamar are divas. They show up every day and work hard for the respect of their teammates.

 

Favre is/was. Look at the crap he pulled in Mississippi. I don’t think Rodgers does anything that stupid down the road. 
 

Brady wasn’t a diva, either. He outworked everyone in the room. Arrogance and self worth does not define a diva… to me. We all have our own perspectives.

2 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Could be right.

 

but not wanting a ‘diva type’ QB must narrow your field.

Just with Williams. But I don’t know him and I’m not sure any of the reports on him are true. They feel that way. But I have no idea.

 

The whole “he wants a piece of the franchise” thing is so absurd that I’m not sure how any makes that report up. But then again, there’s no way he thought that was a smart thing to say. So who the heck knows.

[Rufus T Firefly]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think this is giving Green Bay a free pass for the way they handled everything as well, including how they handled letting him know they intended to trade him and not keep him while he was in the dark for 5 days while previously telling him different.

 

I have a hard time with Rodgers. He’s an asshole. And opinionated. And arrogant.

 

But I also don’t trust the way Green Bay played that whole thing and I think there were a lot of bad feelings on both sides… and it started when they drafted Jordan Love 5 years ago.

I don’t believe Williams is more talented than Daniels or Maye. The three are on equal footing in my eyes. They all do different things well and fall apart in different places.

Honestly, you're just dismissing behavior of any successful QB because you said QB divas "rarely work out." So nothing any good QB does makes them a diva.

 

It's kind of silly. 

[KDawg]

Just now, Rufus T Firefly said:

Honestly, you're just dismissing behavior of any successful QB because you said QB divas "rarely work out." So nothing any good QB does makes them a diva.

 

It's kind of silly. 

I’m not. No. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, KDawg said:

I don’t think they’re all divas. I think they all have tremendous power. But arrogance and leadership are not diva traits. 
 

Allen is FAR from a diva. The amount of community work he does in the Buffalo area is crazy. He’s absolutely fantastic. 
 

I don’t think Brees or Peyton or Cunningham or Moon or Aikman or Luck or even Lamar are divas. They show up every day and work hard for the respect of their teammates.

 

Favre is/was. Look at the crap he pulled in Mississippi. I don’t think Rodgers does anything that stupid down the road. 
 

Brady wasn’t a diva, either. He outworked everyone in the room. Arrogance and self worth does not define a diva… to me. We all have our own perspectives.

I disagree with you, but maybe we are defining diva differently.  I define a diva as an attention seeker who desperately needs their ego stroked to keep them happy.

 

You can be a diva and be an absolutely wonderful person, give back to the community, good teammate, etc. 

 

Of the ones you brought up, I think Moon probably is the one I would concede.  I don't think he said anything to anybody ever as far as I can tell.  

 

Allen is an attention seeking maniac.  Total diva.  Also phenomenal in the community.  

 

Brady was the definition of Diva.  Hell, one of the reasons he wanted out of New England was because he didn't want to share the spotlight with Belichick.  

[KDawg]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

I disagree with you, but maybe we are defining diva differently.  I define a diva as an attention seeker who desperately needs their ego stroked to keep them happy.

 

You can be a diva and be an absolutely wonderful person, give back to the community, good teammate, etc. 

 

Of the ones you brought up, I think Moon probably is the one I would concede.  I don't think he said anything to anybody ever as far as I can tell.  

 

Allen is an attention seeking maniac.  Total diva.  Also phenomenal in the community.  

We definitely define diva differently. 
 

To me, a diva is unlikeable. Someone that just has no traction with the players around them and in a pro setting will be met with nothing but eye rolls because their behavior is child like, arrogant and unearned.

 

Favre qualifies as a diva even with success because he’s (allegedly) done some pretty wild things.

 

I agree that Rodgers is egotistical and needs his ego stroked. I think that comes with the territory with a NFL QB so I try to define it outside of that lens.

 

Though, I do have to ask: why do you think Allen is attention seeking? Maybe it’s because I live in the Buffalo market but I don’t see that from him. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

All this to say, there are qualities which make it harder for a QB to make it, and arrogance is one of them, especially if it's unearned arrogance.  

 

Personality is really important.  But I think it's hard to know if a QB is going to work out without really getting to know them.  Public persona and behind the scenes stuff is very different.  Which is why the interviews are so important.  

[Est.1974]

We don’t really need to define diva to prove / disprove a point do we ? 😂

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

All this to say, there are qualities which make it harder for a QB to make it, and arrogance is one of them, especially if it's unearned arrogance.  

 

Personality is really important.  But I think it's hard to know if a QB is going to work out without really getting to know them.  Public persona and behind the scenes stuff is very different.  Which is why the interviews are so important.  

Yep, and time. Sometimes you have to work with someone for a period of time, months, even years, and then mature these players.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

We definitely define diva differently. 
 

To me, a diva is unlikeable. Someone that just has no traction with the players around them and in a pro setting will be met with nothing but eye rolls because their behavior is child like, arrogant and unearned.

 

Favre qualifies as a diva even with success because he’s (allegedly) done some pretty wild things.

 

I agree that Rodgers is egotistical and needs his ego stroked. I think that comes with the territory with a NFL QB so I try to define it outside of that lens.

 

Though, I do have to ask: why do you think Allen is attention seeking? Maybe it’s because I live in the Buffalo market but I don’t see that from him. 

For Allen, it could be somewhat Buffalo Mafia hatred bias, and I'll admit that.  But I just get the vibe the guy likes attention.  He gets a lot of it.  It feels like he's always in the right place at the right time for the photoshoot to make him look good.  Maybe that's extremely cynical, and maybe he's just an awesome guy.  I'll leave that as a possibility.  I just find him to be an attention seeker from where I sit.  

 

I despise Bills Mafia.  That might be irrational.  I don't really care.  I hate them.  And I desperately hope they blow Allen's prime without winning a SB and then retreat back into mediocrity for 20 years.  

3 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

We don’t really need to define diva to prove / disprove a point do we ? 😂

What else are we going to do on the Thursday between Christmas and New Years?

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

We don’t really need to define diva to prove / disprove a point do we ? 😂

Yep, and time. Sometimes you have to work with someone for a period of time, months, even years, and then mature these players.

Who’s proving or disproving a point? Silly me, I thought we were on a forum to discuss things.

 

you said this: “

I’m not that fussed if we got hold of a franchise QB who was either a) a diva or b) a dickhead.”

 

I thought that was a general statement and not aimed at anyone in particular. So I was discussing that point. 
 

I have been careful lately not to talk about Williams as a prospect in that lens because, as I’ve said in this discussion: I don’t know him. I have my thoughts but without knowing him or having the access to his coaches I don’t know **** about him. I’m not all that high on Williams because I don’t think he’s as good as he’s being hyped to be… not because he’s a diva or not.

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

For Allen, it could be somewhat Buffalo Mafia hatred bias, and I'll admit that.  But I just get the vibe the guy likes attention.  He gets a lot of it.  It feels like he's always in the right place at the right time for the photoshoot to make him look good.  Maybe that's extremely cynical, and maybe he's just an awesome guy.  I'll leave that as a possibility.  I just find him to be an attention seeker from where I sit.  

 

I despise Bills Mafia.  That might be irrational.  I don't really care.  I hate them.  And I desperately hope they blow Allen's prime without winning a SB and then retreat back into mediocrity for 20 years.  

What else are we going to do on the Thursday between Christmas and New Years?

I think there is a little bit of bias there. Allen is great. The things he does for the community is tremendous. 
 

I don’t know he outright seeks attention, but the media here follows him every where he goes. He’s a local hero. Probably the most famous person in Western, NY.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Who’s proving or disproving a point? Silly me, I thought we were on a forum to discuss things.

The purpose of the internet is to win.  

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The purpose of the internet is to win.  

Well, we’re spending time on a Redskins (yes, Redskins… es.redskins.com) forum, discussing the Commanders, and are on the verge of having the plug pulled from us while the team goes 4-13 (if we’re lucky).

 

We’re all doing this winning thing wrong

[Est.1974]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Who’s proving or disproving a point? Silly me, I thought we were on a forum to discuss things.

 

you said this: “

I’m not that fussed if we got hold of a franchise QB who was either a) a diva or b) a dickhead.”

 

I thought that was a general statement and not aimed at anyone in particular. So I was discussing that point. 
 

I have been careful lately not to talk about Williams as a prospect in that lens because, as I’ve said in this discussion: I don’t know him. I have my thoughts but without knowing him or having the access to his coaches I don’t know **** about him. I’m not all that high on Williams because I don’t think he’s as good as he’s being hyped to be… not because he’s a diva or not.

 

The discussion isn’t really about my statement, it’s about yours of not wanting a ‘Diva type QB’. That’s was widely disagreed with, thus the merry go round discussion that followed to define diva. 
 

So to go full circle, a QB being a diva or dickhead doesn’t bother me, however you care to define that. If they play and win games, that’ll do. Coaches can manage that and players will adapt as winning outweighs everything.