The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Conn]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Every play call is not a bad play call.  Literally every team in the league runs this play like 8-10 times a game.  Catch-throw to the WR.  It wasn't a bad situation to run it.  It should be absolutely zero risk on the part of the offense.

 

Wylie has a tell.  He shows what the play is.  And then he blocked air and the defender read the tell and jumped the route.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with throwing a swing pass to a WR.  You're reaching on the play call.  

 

The execution was horrendous AND to be fair, the defender made a pretty damn good play. 

 

I put that INT

60% - Wylie being terrible, tipping the signal (which other teams have said he does), not blocking anybody,

30% - The defender reading it and making a great play.

10% - Howell not recognizing there was a chance the LB was going to be in position to slip through the tackle who wasn't going to block him and make a play.  

 

Is it on the coaching staff for continuing to play Wylie when it's obvious he's a problem? Yes.  Is that on Biennemy?  Yes.  Should they have fixed that a long time ago?  Yes.

 

But you can't just run the ball between the tackles 78 times a game.  You have to throw the ball sometimes.  A quick catch-and-throw WR screen is a staple in literally every offense. Including Turner's offense from last year.  All the WCO use it.  All the Coryell people use it.  Gibbs used it.  That guy up in Detroit everybody is salivating about, Ben Johnson runs it.  The dolphins run it.  

 

This was about the safest pass play you can call.  There's nothing wrong with the call.  

 

There is a lot of other stuff which went wrong.  And we can blame EB for a whole lot of it. But the play design is fine and the play call at that point in the game is fine.  

 

 

The playcall is not fine because it was such a tendency of EB’s to call that exact play in that down, distance, and formation that the defender knew exactly what was coming. That’s not good. Wylie has a tell AND whiffed, a double-whammy of incompetence. But the defender already knew exactly what was coming and where to be because of film study and tracking tendencies, not because of Wylie in that instance. The defender talked about it pretty extensively after the game, that was a gimme for him. EB is predictable. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Conn

[dunfer]

Just now, Conn said:

The playcall is not fine because it was such a tendency of EB’s to call that exact play in that down, distance, and formation that the defender knew exactly what was coming. That’s not good. Wylie has a tell AND whiffed, a double-whammy of incompetence. But the defender already knew exactly what was coming and where to be because of film study and tracking tendencies, not because of Wylie in that instance. EB is predictable. 

youre both right. We suck

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, Conn said:

The playcall is not fine because it was such a tendency of EB’s to call that exact play in that down, distance, and formation that the defender knew exactly what was coming. That’s not good. Wylie has a tell AND whiffed, a double-whammy of incompetence. But the defender already knew exactly what was coming and where to be because of film study and tracking tendencies, not because of Wylie in that instance. The defender talked about it pretty extensively after the game, that was a gimme for him. EB is predictable. 

I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. 

 

I don't actually think we use empty that much. And this is an empty set formation.  I actually think the formation we throw WR screens to most often is a RB with Howell, bunch to one side and a single WR on the other. 

 

We actually use empty way less than last year with Scott Turner.  When I saw the formation live, I remember thinking that it was interesting we went empty on first down.  We typically don't do that.  So the formation wasn't entirely a tell.  ** If there is a statistic or something which proves me wrong on that, please let me know.  This is purely from memory, I'm not sure if there is a "formation by down" percentage stat out there, I certainly don't have it.  But to my memory, we often have a RB in the back field with Howell.  

 

We do run a lot of quick-game on first down, and this is a quick-game concept.  That said, we also run other quick game concepts.  

 

Every play caller has tendencies, and the good ones realize it and use it to their advantage.  

 

Do we predictably run quick game on first down? Yes.  So I agree there.  Out of that formation?  Not to my memory, but I might be wrong. (And honest to God don't want to spark a debate about it, so if you just said I'm wrong, I'd by it.)  Also the throw could have gone to the other side.

 

I still don't have so much a problem with the play call.  I have a much bigger problem with Wylie playing.  

 

And no, I don't want EB back next year in any capacity.  But I tend to think there's some good and some bad with him, whereas others think there isn't literally anything he does right ever.  I'm not in that camp. 

[Conn]

32 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. 

 

I don't actually think we use empty that much. And this is an empty set formation.  I actually think the formation we throw WR screens to most often is a RB with Howell, bunch to one side and a single WR on the other. 

 

We actually use empty way less than last year with Scott Turner.  When I saw the formation live, I remember thinking that it was interesting we went empty on first down.  We typically don't do that.  So the formation wasn't entirely a tell.  ** If there is a statistic or something which proves me wrong on that, please let me know.  This is purely from memory, I'm not sure if there is a "formation by down" percentage stat out there, I certainly don't have it.  But to my memory, we often have a RB in the back field with Howell.  

 

We do run a lot of quick-game on first down, and this is a quick-game concept.  That said, we also run other quick game concepts.  

 

Every play caller has tendencies, and the good ones realize it and use it to their advantage.  

 

Do we predictably run quick game on first down? Yes.  So I agree there.  Out of that formation?  Not to my memory, but I might be wrong. (And honest to God don't want to spark a debate about it, so if you just said I'm wrong, I'd by it.)  Also the throw could have gone to the other side.

 

I still don't have so much a problem with the play call.  I have a much bigger problem with Wylie playing.  

 

And no, I don't want EB back next year in any capacity.  But I tend to think there's some good and some bad with him, whereas others think there isn't literally anything he does right ever.  I'm not in that camp. 

Your opinion on it is interesting and I can’t say from my own memory whether your memory on it is correct or faulty. But I’m going to go with the Dolphins defender who scored the pick-6 and take his word on the tape study they did and the obvious tendency they spotted. The way he tells it makes it seem like his eyes basically grew to the size of onions when he realized it was happening exactly how they expected.

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 minutes ago, Conn said:

Your opinion on it is interesting and I can’t say from my own memory whether your memory on it is correct or faulty. But I’m going to go with the Dolphins defender who scored the pick-6 and take his word on the tape study they did and the obvious tendency they spotted. The way he tells it makes it seem like his eyes basically grew to the size of onions when he realized it was happening exactly how they expected.

Yeah I also heard that Wylie has a tell and that’s what he keyed off of.  
 

Regardless, it didn’t work out well. 
 

Scott Turner called the same 3 idiotic running plays on first down for 3 years and I seemed to be the only one who got massively irate about it.  And we averaged like 1.8 yards a carry and on those runs.  
 

I get pattens and predictability.  It might have been predictable, and it so I hope they solve that.  

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah I also heard that Wylie has a tell and that’s what he keyed off of.

He lets the defense know that it’s a pass by the way he doesn’t block anybody?

[FootballZombie]

Considering EB has called 55 consecutive pass plays b4, Wylie tipping plays aint that much of an issue is it? /s

[PeterMP]

10 hours ago, zCommander said:

The play in pictures.... Wylie is not directly lined up with the defender. Wylie then proceeds to just throw his hands up and expects the defender to just come to him and give him a bear hug. Look at the hash mark under Wylie's foot. He doesn't' even move an inch to block the defender until it's too late. Then Wylie takes a bad angle and had to make a U and then jogs after the defender. But it is still 100% on EB. Look at the OL. Lined up more to their left than right. EB should have seen that and stopped the play!

 

It is hard to tell if the OL is lined up more to their left than the right.  It isn't like the ball is necessarily spotted right in the middle of the hash marks.  Ginkel (43) was pretty much lined up outside of Wylie all game.  His game is speed.  He wants the space to maneuver, and he gets that by lining up wide.

 

A key component of any screen is the DL is going to rush the QB and essentially take themselves out of the play.  There are very few OL that are going to be able to get off the line and get a block in the time required on that play if the guy doesn't rush.  And he read the play early and didn't rush.

 

If you watch this highlight video,

 

https://www.miamidolphins.com/video/dolphins-at-commanders-full-highlights

 

the first play is pretty much the same thing where 43 just rushes.  The ball is between the hashmarks, Wylie's foot is on the hash mark, and 43 is outwide.  But if 43 plays the play the same, it isn't an issue because he rushes up the field.  

 

If you're the QB on any screen if the relevant DL aren't rushing, you've got to throw the ball in the dirt.

 

I'm not absolving Wylie of blame because there has been talk he has a tell so maybe he read something in Wylie that told him it was WR screen.  And I'm not going to absolve EB because I don't know enough about there tendencies and Wylie having a tell to say the play wasn't given away.  But once the play starts and the ball is in your hand and the DL isn't rushing, you can't throw that ball.  It isn't uncommon in that situation for QBs to throw interceptions, and throwing the ball into the ground is the right play.  That's a much more reasonable ask than asking Wylie to get off the line and block a guy that isn't rushing on a play that's a screen.

Edited December 16, 2023 by PeterMP

[YouLikeThat]

I liked EB coming into the season but more and more I've disliked how we scheme the run game. It may be because our OL is bad but thats on EB(signing off on Wylie) and Rivera. But running so much out of shotgun (non zone read)is  a terrible formula imo. I want to integrate the full back back (i-form, split back, i- strong/weak) into our offense and run play action out of those formations which would help the pass pro. Before we got ourselves a legitimate FB to run this I would have used Bates as a FB/H-back type

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, YouLikeThat said:

I liked EB coming into the season but more and more I've disliked how we scheme the run game. It may be because our OL is bad but thats on EB(signing off on Wylie) and Rivera. But running so much out of shotgun (non zone read)is  a terrible formula imo. I want to integrate the full back back (i-form, split back, i- strong/weak) into our offense and run play action out of those formations which would help the pass pro. Before we got ourselves a legitimate FB to run this I would have used Bates as a FB/H-back type

People who complain about running from shotgun don’t watch a lot of football outside of this team, I think.  It’s a trend.  Almost every team does it because teams are in shotgun a whole lot more than under center in todays NFL and if you don’t run out of gun it would be an immediate tip off what you’re doing: Run if under center, pass if in gun. 
 

Gun runs are fine.  Plenty of teams can execute them just fine.  There are also a lot of ways to run from the gun.  
 

The one which Jay loved, I hated.  And that was a delayed gun-run draw, called “duo” in a lot of cases where the tackles invite the pass rush and and soft-set, instead of attacking the defender.  The idea is to invite the DE up field then just run by them.  Which makes sense.  Except it never seemed to work for us. From 2017-2019 when Jay was calling plays we ran it on a whole lot of first downs for ann anverage of 1.8 yards.   Everybody uses it, just some more than others.  EB does it on occasion also.

 

With a modern offense, you have to be able to run out of the gun.  Our OL is absolutely putrid at run blocking.  If you look carefully, we actually try multiple different styles of running, both from gun and from under center.  None of it works well. 
 

We’ve tried duo, power run from gun, counter, zone, outside zone, misdirection, all of it.  It just hasn’t ever worked well.  We’ve also tried under center runs, to some varied success. 
 

Most often, When it has worked is in second halves after the pass game has been established.  Or when Robinson has been able to break tackled and get yardage.  
 

This isn’t really a defense of EB.  But between he and Ron, they put themselves in a crap position with the OL, and now they have to work around it. They’ve tried a bit of everything and it’s all been suck.  So until the last two games, they just sortof stopped trying. 
 

They’re trying to work a game-plan like the dolphins, where Tua gets the ball out in under 2 seconds.  But Sam isn’t as experienced as Tua and our skill position players aren’t as good as theirs.

 

The reason Miami can run the hell out of the ball is there are 1200 rushing yards which teams will just concede in order to defend that track team.  Same with the colts back in the day: whoever they got to line up behind Manning never faced a stacked box.

 

This is a whole team issue:  EB could be better, Sam is still learning, the OL is terrible and I don’t give a damn what PFF and Logan Paulson say about it, and the skill position players are good but not great.

 

Personally, I don’t think trying to implement the Hallock offense of run 35-40 times and pass 20 is the way to go.  You’ve got to be able to throw the ball.  A 60-40 mix of pass to run is appropriate.  Even a little higher if you’re trying to cover for a bad run blocking OL.  

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

People who complain about running from shotgun don’t watch a lot of football outside of this team, I think.  It’s a trend.  Almost every team does it because teams are in shotgun a whole lot more than under center in todays NFL and if you don’t run out of gun it would be an immediate tip off what you’re doing: Run if under center, pass if in gun. 
 

Gun runs are fine.  Plenty of teams can execute them just fine.  There are also a lot of ways to run from the gun.  
 

The one which Jay loved, I hated.  And that was a delayed gun-run draw, called “duo” in a lot of cases where the tackles invite the pass rush and and soft-set, instead of attacking the defender.  The idea is to invite the DE up field then just run by them.  Which makes sense.  Except it never seemed to work for us. From 2017-2019 when Jay was calling plays we ran it on a whole lot of first downs for ann anverage of 1.8 yards.   Everybody uses it, just some more than others.  EB does it on occasion also.

 

With a modern offense, you have to be able to run out of the gun.  Our OL is absolutely putrid at run blocking.  If you look carefully, we actually try multiple different styles of running, both from gun and from under center.  None of it works well. 
 

We’ve tried duo, power run from gun, counter, zone, outside zone, misdirection, all of it.  It just hasn’t ever worked well.  We’ve also tried under center runs, to some varied success. 
 

Most often, When it has worked is in second halves after the pass game has been established.  Or when Robinson has been able to break tackled and get yardage.  
 

This isn’t really a defense of EB.  But between he and Ron, they put themselves in a crap position with the OL, and now they have to work around it. They’ve tried a bit of everything and it’s all been suck.  So until the last two games, they just sortof stopped trying. 
 

They’re trying to work a game-plan like the dolphins, where Tua gets the ball out in under 2 seconds.  But Sam isn’t as experienced as Tua and our skill position players aren’t as good as theirs.

 

The reason Miami can run the hell out of the ball is there are 1200 rushing yards which teams will just concede in order to defend that track team.  Same with the colts back in the day: whoever they got to line up behind Manning never faced a stacked box.

 

This is a whole team issue:  EB could be better, Sam is still learning, the OL is terrible and I don’t give a damn what PFF and Logan Paulson say about it, and the skill position players are good but not great.

 

Personally, I don’t think trying to implement the Hallock offense of run 35-40 times and pass 20 is the way to go.  You’ve got to be able to throw the ball.  A 60-40 mix of pass to run is appropriate.  Even a little higher if you’re trying to cover for a bad run blocking OL.  

Duo, actually, just means you double team both defensive tackles. Has nothing to do with gun, under, etc.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Duo, actually, just means you double team both defensive tackles. Has nothing to do with gun, under, etc.

Thats not how I heard Cooley describe it for years but I’ll take your word for it.  

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Thats not how I heard Cooley describe it for years but I’ll take your word for it.  

There is different language for different systems. 
 

Duo, universally, is double teaming both DTs and usually run from a six man surface in order to get full blocking on the entire defensive front. 
 

Gruden may have called a draw play “duo” in his system. But inviting the edge’s up field is just a typical draw play. 

Could have been a method of coding or whatever they were doing for their play calls.

 

But what you describe is just a classic QB Draw.

 

Terminology is weird, but I don’t want people to confuse that Gruden’s duo is the same as the duo play that is being run in the collegiate and HS game a ton nowadays.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

There is different language for different systems. 
 

Duo, universally, is double teaming both DTs and usually run from a six man surface in order to get full blocking on the entire defensive front. 
 

Gruden may have called a draw play “duo” in his system. But inviting the edge’s up field is just a typical draw play. 

Could have been a method of coding or whatever they were doing for their play calls.

 

But what you describe is just a classic QB Draw.

 

Terminology is weird, but I don’t want people to confuse that Gruden’s duo is the same as the duo play that is being run in the collegiate and HS game a ton nowadays.

Fair and good info.  

 

I wouldn’t have remembered the name of the play if Cooley didn’t rant on it for years.  At one point he actually asked Jay about it on the coaches show and in typical Jay fashion he yuck yucked it away and said it was a great play even though it averaged <2 yards in the 3 years he called it on every first down. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Terminology differences make this all confusing. I've heard duo is side-by-side doubles. So both DT's or it could be the right DT and right DE. But then I've also heard duo is an inside zone and doubling a DE sounds like you're begging for an off tackle run.

 

Gruden did have his own definition, but he could never figure out how to get it to work despite calling it frequently. Probably his worst play given the poor results yet high frequency. If there was specific nuance to the play and a purpose to always only doubling the DT's, then it was lost on Gruden.

[RWJ]

Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too.  I'm only going to post this one time!  With ALL the due respect to each person on Extemeskins,  That's all it takes. Again, with ALL due respect, don't need to repeat it over and over again with responses!  Both Jayden Daniels and Sam Howell both. 

 

Yes, the one and only legendary Bill Walsh had Joe Montana and Steve Young on the same team at the same time. With a new GM and HC, it can work.  It worked with Walsh; it can work here.  

 

Walsh allowed both of them to push each other to be better and it worked.  You can still draft OL in this draft it is super deep with OLmen, so protection is given to both QBs even though they can both run but Daniels runs like a gazelle!  Howell has wheels too but not like Daniels.  Daniel's is special when it comes to speed and elusiveness.   My mock draft hope list is in my signature. It isn't the best and doesn't cover all the areas of need as there are many but it gives an idea of how we can fix the holes at OL and FA has some good D players on it worth signing.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Gruden did have his own definition, but he could never figure out how to get it to work despite calling it frequently. Probably his worst play given the poor results yet high frequency. If there was specific nuance to the play and a purpose to always only doubling the DT's, then it was lost on Gruden.

The sum total of stuff that was lost on Gruden could stun a stampeding herd of oxen dead in their tracks.

 

The image rehabilitation our local media idiots have for for him is both unearned and absolutely astonishing. 

[zCommander]

18 hours ago, PeterMP said:

I'm not absolving Wylie of blame because there has been talk he has a tell so maybe he read something in Wylie that told him it was WR screen.  And I'm not going to absolve EB because I don't know enough about there tendencies and Wylie having a tell to say the play wasn't given away.  But once the play starts and the ball is in your hand and the DL isn't rushing, you can't throw that ball.  It isn't uncommon in that situation for QBs to throw interceptions, and throwing the ball into the ground is the right play.  That's a much more reasonable ask than asking Wylie to get off the line and block a guy that isn't rushing on a play that's a screen.

 

It is highly discouraging to know that EB still doesn't know tendencies of Wylie since he worked with him in KC. It took 1.2 seconds from snap to INT. Sam knew where he was going to go exactly and how quickly. It wasn't like he had time to figure out if there is a free runner he has to worry about and just throw the ball in the dirt. Sam should know better that he can't rely on Wylie and not throw to that side or better yet EB should know better and not call a screenplay on that side EVER AGAIN. Well if we are trying to lose the game for a higher pick than yes it is all good then.  

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by zCommander

[Wyvern]

18 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

... Sam should know better that he can't rely on Wylie and not throw to that side or better yet EB should know better and not call a screenplay on that side EVER AGAIN. ...

 

The only problem with that approach is that means Howell has to have his back to the part of the pocket that Wylie is responsible for. That could lead to some big blindside hits on Howell, because Wylie hasn't shown very much reliability in that responsibility.

 

BTW, on the particular play in question, I noticed that Wylie didn't even try to chip Van Ginkel while lumbering over to help block for WR screen target.  If he'd done that, maybe Van Ginkel wouldn't have been fully in the passing lane to make the pick-6.   

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

The only problem with that approach is that means Howell has to have his back to the part of the pocket that Wylie is responsible for. That could lead to some big blindside hits on Howell, because Wylie hasn't shown very much reliability in that responsibility.

 

BTW, on the particular play in question, I noticed that Wylie didn't even try to chip Van Ginkel while lumbering over to help block for WR screen target.  If he'd done that, maybe Van Ginkel wouldn't have been fully in the passing lane to make the pick-6.   

 

Ha you are right about his back towards Wylie even more distratious lol

 

Yeah agree on that play and all he had to do was just try to even lay a finger on him to mess up his straight shot and that 1/10 of a second would have been enough for that completion to happen 

[DWinzit]

20 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

It is highly discouraging to know that EB still doesn't know tendencies of Wylie since he worked with him in KC. It took 1.2 seconds from snap to INT. Sam knew where he was going to go exactly and how quickly. It wasn't like he had time to figure out if there is a free runner he has to worry about and just throw the ball in the dirt. Sam should know better that he can't rely on Wylie and not throw to that side or better yet EB should know better and not call a screenplay on that side EVER AGAIN. Well if we are trying to lose the game for a higher pick than yes it is all good then.  

 

EB should really know better than to have Wylie starting at RT. Then maybe he could call a screen

 

It's just that it would show his piss poor job of player evals when bringing him to Washington. 

[Est.1974]

We should have been able to squeeze a decent pick out of the Browns for Brissett.

[sjinhan]

well this game didnt help the people in the Howell camp (me included).  

 

I know the offense sucks and the team overall gave up but I would still like to see Howell play well.

 

Howell is playing as below average as rest of the team.. not a good sign.

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

I like to think I’ve been patient before coming to a conclusion on the season, I find much of the it’s anyone’s fault but Sam’s attitude quite tedious, yes the O line has been bad, yes the receivers have been bad, and yes if we’re being frank Sam has been bad too of late.

 

The kid clearly does have some ability, but enough to ignore Williams, Maye or Daniels? I wouldn’t be so sure.

 

Here’s hoping that he can ball out the last few weeks! Just don’t win!!

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

19 minutes ago, sjinhan said:

I know the offense sucks and the team overall gave up but I would still like to see Howell play well.

Those things don’t go together though.

 

The moment we got embarrassed by Tommy Devito in FedEx, vacation plans started getting made.  After the embarrassment to Dallas, those plans got confirmed.  Once that happens, it’s over for everybody.