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The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

Koolblue13

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The Consigliere

The Consigliere

Posted
Posted
On 11/20/2023 at 5:29 AM, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

I think Howell has at least earned the opportunity to be QB1 next season.

 

And I swear to God, I will riot if this team drafts Caleb Williams. 

We won't be in the zone to get him. Personally I think it is crazy to be angry at the idea of getting Williams. The Maye obssession is fine, but Williams is a special talent as far as prospects go. Has a chance to be a bust like any QB prospect, and who knows, maybe the mental make up insures he has a career more like Staffords pre Rams, then say a Ben Roth, or Mahomes or whatever in terms of hits, but he's one of the best QB prospects of the past decade, if we're in position to get him, that would be a great thing. Highly unlikely both he AND Howell are floor QB's, possible, but unlikely, and I think Williams has a very good shot at at least hitting his production ceiling even if he doesn't reach those heights we associate w/winners w/the rings. Time will tell. 

 

For now anyway, we're in the zone to get one, and if it was possible to trade up for one, I would, but with the Bears drifting away from any chance at slot 1 and 2, both, the chances to trade up for a QB are looking slimmer and slimmer so you probably need not worry.

 

Right now the best odds for the #1 and #2 picks include 5 of 6 teams that would probably really seriously consider pulling the trigger. The only chances for a trade down are Arizona, Chicago's own pick, and maybe Tennessee if Levis plays well down the stretch (but even then I doubt they'd pass on Maye or Williams). We'll see. I don't think we trade up for one, I think we take the #3 or #4 at slot, or go OL. 

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Warhead36

Warhead36

Posted
Posted

There is just something about Williams's makeup that I don't like. Him asking for ownership shares. The crying after games. Dude just screams DIVA to me. I have no issues with his talent beyond the normal young QB having to learn the pro game stuff, but I don't know, something about him just turns me off.

 

I love Maye though. Dude is the cold ruthless cyborg type I can always get behind.

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Chris 44

Chris 44

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I like TEs in the 2nd round. Just not in the 1st. The track record is just abysmal.

I had high hopes for Cole Turner after last years training camp, dude has been a disappointment. Not sure if its all on him, scheme etc. Think he has 9 catches in 9 games this year. I really expected more from him especially with how much the Reid offense uses tight ends and given his catch radius thought he would show up as an end zone target. Definitely need an infusion of talent at TE next year. Assuming its his skill level as opposed to other factors involved.

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Warhead36

Warhead36

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Posted
38 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

I had high hopes for Cole Turner after last years training camp, dude has been a disappointment. Not sure if its all on him, scheme etc. Think he has 9 catches in 9 games this year. I really expected more from him especially with how much the Reid offense uses tight ends and given his catch radius thought he would show up as an end zone target. Definitely need an infusion of talent at TE next year. Assuming its his skill level as opposed to other factors involved.

He doesn't get open.

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Rufus T Firefly

Rufus T Firefly

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Posted
5 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

Look at the length and dead money left on Murray's contract.  They can't move on from him for years without burning somewhere between a third and a quarter of their total salary cap for a player who wouldn't be on the team.  They won't be able to trade that contract and get someone to take on his money for years either.  It's financially untenable for them to draft a QB in the first right now.  They either have to pick one of the weapons and sell it as supporting a near term future with Murray, or even better, auction off the pick for a boatload of future firsts.  I absolutely think they would deal the #2 if they got it, regardless of how well Murray plays.  They are stuck with him in the same way Denver would have been stuck with Russell Wilson if they were in the same boat.

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. First of all, if you think one of those QBs are the type of franchise QB everyone projects the to be, you take him. You don't just settle for being a mediocre team with a QB you don't believe in because you're worried about a dead cap hit on a guy like Murray. That's just loser thinking to a level I can't even put into words. 

 

Even if it wasn't, the Crds have a ton of cap space going forward. Right now, they have $65 mil for 2024 and %170 for 2025. Obviously they won't have that much then because they'll spend some of it this year. But that's how much flexibility they have. And, honestly, it's hard to find any FAs they have in that time that are crucial to re-sign. Marquise Brown is okay, but is anyone freaking out if they lose him? Zaven Colins has talent, but hasn't popped yet (also, he'd be a 5th year option in 25, not a FA). Kyir White is a good player, but not an expensive re-sgn. Bubba is nice, but at his age should pronbably be gone by then.

 

Point is, they have an absolute crap-ton of cap space and are in need of total rebuilding. But they are going to pass on a young franchise QB because they are worried about Murray's cap hit? Silly, at best.

 

If they cut Murray in 25, they save over $12 mil in cap space. Hell, if they make a trade where they agree to pay half his salary for 2024, that net costs them about 12 mil while they get some draft capital back (and yeah, there will likely be a team willing to take Murray at 17.5)

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Chris 44

Chris 44

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Sorry, but this is just nonsense. First of all, if you think one of those QBs are the type of franchise QB everyone projects the to be, you take him. You don't just settle for being a mediocre team with a QB you don't believe in because you're worried about a dead cap hit on a guy like Murray. That's just loser thinking to a level I can't even put into words. 

 

Even if it wasn't, the Crds have a ton of cap space going forward. Right now, they have $65 mil for 2024 and %170 for 2025. Obviously they won't have that much then because they'll spend some of it this year. But that's how much flexibility they have. And, honestly, it's hard to find any FAs they have in that time that are crucial to re-sign. Marquise Brown is okay, but is anyone freaking out if they lose him? Zaven Colins has talent, but hasn't popped yet (also, he'd be a 5th year option in 25, not a FA). Kyir White is a good player, but not an expensive re-sgn. Bubba is nice, but at his age should pronbably be gone by then.

 

Point is, they have an absolute crap-ton of cap space and are in need of total rebuilding. But they are going to pass on a young franchise QB because they are worried about Murray's cap hit? Silly, at best.

 

If they cut Murray in 25, they save over $12 mil in cap space. Hell, if they make a trade where they agree to pay half his salary for 2024, that net costs them about 12 mil while they get some draft capital back (and yeah, there will likely be a team willing to take Murray at 17.5)

I have to agree, plus the cap hit on a rookie QB is negligible, your paying Murray anyway. What's another million for a possible franchise QB.

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The Consigliere

The Consigliere

Posted
Posted
On 11/20/2023 at 9:17 AM, Going Commando said:

 

My biggest fear is that we pass on QB in this draft because the new regime wants to give the old regime's prospect a shot.  Then Sam struggles or is even just mediocre heading into his extension season and we don't commit to him long term. Off-season two or three comes around and this team has no real options to improve at QB in the kind of timeframe necessary for them to keep their jobs.  Meanwhile Drake Maye goes on to be a franchise QB for the Giants or Patriots or whoever.

 

Basically either a repetition of the exact same set of mistakes that the Rivera regime made, or a repetition of the Cousins fiasco.  I'm not in it for another five years before we can actually start rebuilding.  My passion for the team is already diminishing, this next regime needs to work out.  Josh Harris needs to get this GM and coaching hire right, and those guys need to get QB right.  In off-season one.  This off-season needs to be completely decisive on all three of those positions.

 

Not saying this as an attack, just curious about anyone whose passion for the team is "diminishing". i am absolutely amazed at people who haven't had their passion absolutely shredded to nothing but detritus at this point, but maybe yours is? 1993-2023 has been total and abject misery punctuated by one non-suck season about every 5th year. It's been unbelievably awful for so long that I just tend to assume people are in the same kind of dazed, half disengaged state I'm in. I usually only post here for the draft and at the end of the season when slotting is being figured out. This season has been a rare exception because of Sam, actual "hope", along with new ownership, but those are the only two reasons I've paid any attention at all for the most part since 2016 or 2017. 

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illone

illone

Posted
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3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

There is just something about Williams's makeup that I don't like. Him asking for ownership shares. The crying after games. Dude just screams DIVA to me. I have no issues with his talent beyond the normal young QB having to learn the pro game stuff, but I don't know, something about him just turns me off.

 

I love Maye though. Dude is the cold ruthless cyborg type I can always get behind.

 

I love Maye, too. Dude has a hose.

 

My only concern would be bringing in another UNC guy to compete with Howell might be awkward, but hey this is a business and if Howell can't beat him then he aint it anyways.

20 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

Not saying this as an attack, just curious about anyone whose passion for the team is "diminishing". i am absolutely amazed at people who haven't had their passion absolutely shredded to nothing but detritus at this point, but maybe yours is? 1993-2023 has been total and abject misery punctuated by one non-suck season about every 5th year. It's been unbelievably awful for so long that I just tend to assume people are in the same kind of dazed, half disengaged state I'm in. I usually only post here for the draft and at the end of the season when slotting is being figured out. This season has been a rare exception because of Sam, actual "hope", along with new ownership, but those are the only two reasons I've paid any attention at all for the most part since 2016 or 2017. 

 

 

Right there with you my man.  Most of my 15K posts came during Gibbs return seasons and has diminished since.

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)

Listening to Hoffman with Logan Paulsen

 

A.  Giants modify their scheme to their opponent.     They took the 2nd level, 3rd level throws away from this offense and dared Washington to run.  They both think other defenses should do the same, dare Washington to run and assume that Washington would rather throw into heavy coverage than run the ball.

 

B.  Bieiniemy is more of a this is what we run, this is what you'll get offense not so much factoring the opponents personnel.

 

C.  They find Beiniemy's scheme fairly predictable with easy to follow tendencies for opposing defenses based on personnel and coverages they get.  They like to do such and such in the red zone such and such against this coverage and that coverage where you can narrow it down with ease.

 

D.  So the chess match is defenses can cue in on Bieniemy's tendencies with ease.  But can the execution of their tendencies (by virtue of them working to master them) override their predictability?   

 

Logan said maybe.  He's not down on Bieineimy.   Logan likes him by his also seemed a bit measured as the season progresses.  Hoffman comes off a bit more cynical.   Logan said Bieiniemy doesn't run an offense designated to fool anyone or tailors it so much to the opponent's defense.  It's about running their script to perfection and even if the opponent's can predict it, can they stop it?

 

I know Logan said in the past the Giants are good to scheming things up to the opponent.  It sounds like this team isn't known to do the same whether its Del Rio on defense or Bieiniemy on offense.    So maybe that's part of the issue with this coaching staff versus NY.

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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FootballZombie

FootballZombie

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think to be a successful OC in the NFL you have to be able to attack weaknesses.

 

Yes, you can have your focus and your niche, but you also need some degree of flexibility.

 

You have to be able to exploit a D that is bad against the run, or bad against the pass.

You have to be able to pivot to react to injuries on both our side and theirs.

You have to be able to adjust in real time if something is working extraordinarily well, or not at all. Not 8 weeks later.

 

The best offenses certainly have an identity but they can also break away from it and hurt you in other ways or take advantage of openings in real time.

 

We straight up could not do this last year, as the hide-the-QB O was the only feasible offense we could operate in and that does not leave much wiggle room for flexibility. Even when facing the best Run D in the NFL, all we could do was continue to try and run as much as possible.

 

We pretty much choose to be ultra-rigid this year by offensive design.

 

I don't believe either is very conductive to high level success.

Edited by FootballZombie
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Tyler Spiers

Tyler Spiers

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

Howell had a bad game and some really bad interceptions but I think he can fix this when he gets a better offensive line / learns not to try to do everything.

 

What I did like about the game is that despite 6 turnovers, Howell still tried to get the win. Last interception was bad and he shouldn't of thrown it but I think he was just trying to win. Still really happy with Howell and still think he'll be a star.

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Conn

Conn

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Llevron said:

That's funny because Howell literally said today that their offensive philosophy was to take what the defense gave them. 


They can say what they want, it’s easy to see watching the games that they take forever to really adjust and don’t attack teams’ weaknesses. It’s like they run the equivalent of the opening 15-play script for 4 quarters sometimes. 

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BatteredFanSyndrome

BatteredFanSyndrome

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Llevron said:

That's funny because Howell literally said today that their offensive philosophy was to take what the defense gave them. 

I’ll say this, it certainly looks as if the defense knows what’s coming, on a lot of snaps.  I’m merely a guy with 20+ years of amateur experience watching from my couch and I too often call plays before the snap.  Which leads to the defense not ‘giving’ them anything.  Even if we look back at the Seattle game, the explosive plays were off schedule plays that weren’t meant to happen like that.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome
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Llevron

Llevron

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Conn said:


They can say what they want, it’s easy to see watching the games that they take forever to really adjust and don’t attack teams’ weaknesses. It’s like they run the equivalent of the opening 15-play script for 4 quarters sometimes. 

 

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’ll say this, it certainly looks as if the defense knows what’s coming, on a lot of snaps.  I’m merely a guy with 20+ years of amateur experience watching from my couch and I too often call plays before the snap.  Which leads to the defense not ‘giving’ them anything.  Even if we look back at the Seattle game, the explosive plays were off schedule plays that weren’t meant to happen like that.


Crazy to me it’s this easy to see what’s coming and stop them and they are STILL rated somewhere near top 12 in the league in most categories. **** just doesn’t line up for me for some reason but I admit I know nothing obviously. 

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Llevron said:

That's funny because Howell literally said today that their offensive philosophy was to take what the defense gave them. 

 

Logan's point actually talked about that as I said in my post, that was the part that referenced it. 

 

What I said Logan said:  C.  They find Bieniemy's scheme fairly predictable with easy to follow tendencies for opposing defenses based on personnel and coverages they get.  They like to do such and such in the red zone such and such against this coverage and that coverage where you can narrow it down with ease.

 

Yes they have answers to certain formations -- that was part of his point but the answers are mostly the same answers and defenses are cued up to it.    Again Logan didn't say that as an attack.  Maybe a mild criticism.  His point is Bieiniemy isn't the only dude who coaches on execution.  In other words, yes we are repetitive.  Yes our tendencies are easy to dicipher.  But the hope is we run these plays so well because of how often we do the same things that you can't stop it whether you know what we are going to do or not.

 

This part is just me spitballing some based on Logan's comments about the Giants coaches this year and last year.  Logan politely has suggested we got outcoached both years.  And he's said Martindale in particular is very good at diciphering the tendencies of an opposing offense.   Logan has talked about both years Martindale changed the game plan from game 1 to game 2 of the matchups and apparently him mixing it up threw the offense off kilter -- where they were ready for a rerun of the Giants game plan from game 1 but Martindale instead did something very different.

 

Martindale's team lacks talent though and gets creamed by the Eagles and Cowboys routinely.  Yet they've beat this team 5 out of the last 7 times.   So the Giants magic coaching seems to work the best against Ron Rivera and crew not so much the rest of the league.

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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