The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

7 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

It honestly feels like the coaches have been going through the motions and are trying not to make it obvious that they've quit to the players.  The players have been more invested in the grind of the season than they have, and it's a testament to having good dudes in the locker room that they haven't quit yet.  I think the coaches know it's over, and that none of them are going to be back next year.  How can they not?  The famous owner is openly tweeting criticism of their losses and basically letting everyone know they are finished.

Del Rio was talking about the last wildcard spot today in his presser. They won’t give up. Their mindset is way different. 

[Llevron]

Just now, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Del Rio was talking about the last wildcard spot today in his presser. They won’t give up. Their mindset is way different. 

 

They say that I dont think they mean it. Cause if they meant it they would be talking about sweeping the division the rest of the way. 

[Thinking Skins]

36 minutes ago, Conn said:

Okay we’ll set aside how much the game and rules have changed (though much of why I think that’s important isn’t because of how the game is played—it’s because the rookie wage scale and salary cap effect how patient teams can afford to be with young QBs now compared to in the 80’s—not at all).

 

But why do you see this as useful. What are you trying to glean, is I guess my question. Cherry-picking Elway in 1983, one of the most talented QB prospects of all time. Prototypical size, HOF arm and pocket movement. Why does seeing how this specimen of a QB grew out of his sack issues 40 years ago apply to Sam Howell in 2023 at all. 
 

What is your goal with the comparison? Brees and Big Ben, also drafted 20+ years ago before the rookie wage scale era, before tons of rules changes. Both HOF types anyways. What can you gain in relation to Howell from looking at how eventual HOF QB’s in a different era developed? The guys you’re looking at are all by their nature outliers, I have to repeat that. 
 

So what are you looking for? Hope? 

So I was looking to discuss the last paragraph. The Brady stuff was extra, but I think they play the game very similar. I don't think Howell plays the game at all close to Brees or Wilson who he's been compared to because to his size. He's (Howell)had that pocket escapability, but it wasn't something that Elway always had. He learned or over time. 

 

That was my main point of the point, just that these two are similar. 

[DWinzit]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Gibson is one of the most overrated players of recent times. Probably a reflection on how much we’ve sucked. 

I always found him to not be used to his strength. He was always misused here. they should have have splitting out and using him in different gadget plays. They rarely did that and he should never have been a guy just going up the gut like has often been his usage....that's mismanagement and amazing since they over drafted him, seemed they knew what they were getting. 

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

Wonder if Gates is hurt?

 

I don't like benching him for Larsen when. Stromberg needs reps to develop.  The season is over, we all know it.  Why are guys who have a chance to be here next year not playing?

While you and I feel the season is for all intensive purposes over, I doubt the staff feels that way. As a result I would expect Larsen. Like you, I'd rather see Strom getting reps so we know what we have for next year. 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

It honestly feels like the coaches have been going through the motions and are trying not to make it obvious that they've quit to the players.  The players have been more invested in the grind of the season than they have, and it's a testament to having good dudes in the locker room that they haven't quit yet.  I think the coaches know it's over, and that none of them are going to be back next year.  How can they not?  The famous owner is openly tweeting criticism of their losses and basically letting everyone know they are finished.

For whatever its worth, I think guys like Rivera, Del Rio, and EB are pros and will coach out to the best of their abilities.

 

The issue is that their abilities are severely lacking.

[The Consigliere]

9 hours ago, KDawg said:

Dear person X’ing,

 

Here is how to make it make sense. These artificial ratings are bad and shouldn’t be used for any reason.

 

Thank you,

 

People who watch the games 

 

The one issue that always bothered me with the metrics they produced is that it isn't like the combine, where you use a stop watch, or a measurement, or a pass where it's complete or not. With blocking, you just have people watching tape, and grading plays, one play at a time. It's people evaluating this, not simple math. People. Hence, bias and perception absolutely does enter into it.

 

I've always taken it all w/a grain of salt because they're draft rankings are always up and down like anyones and their dynasty fantasy styled rankings are equally suspect when it comes to rookies. For all the math, supposedly, i like the guys at rotoviz, more than the guys at PFF, because the guys at rotoviz, really on things they can't tweak simply from watching tape. They use mathematical models etc.

 

These guys? with the ol? They look at game tape, it's basically tape grinding and they grade the performances from there.

 

I think there's a pretty strong consensus that their tape grinding of our OL is horse ----. Logic would seem to agree. I don't think it's in anyway an indictment of analytics, in fact, in a lot of ways it's an indictment of scouting and watching tape, more than anything. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Nope, you are the rare voice of reason here. 

Hey. 
 

[Thinking Skins]

A key think about the Elway comparison is that right around now (game 7) is when his sack rate started to go down. 

 

Can't say it will be the same here, but at are seeing changes in the OL, so his hopes are high. 

[Going Commando]

53 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

For whatever its worth, I think guys like Rivera, Del Rio, and EB are pros and will coach out to the best of their abilities.

 

The issue is that their abilities are severely lacking.

 

They didn't used to be this bad though.  They'll perform their jobs according to baseline expectations for being a pro, but to truly compete at the top level... that takes being inspired and hungry.  The inability to make adjustments and good plans tells me they don't have that this year.  And I think it's because they know that it's hopeless.

[Conn]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

What does Schlereth know about O line play?

 

 

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

What does Schlereth know about O line play?

 

 

Wait until PFF hears about this.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

“I was watching the film”

 

The primary difference between a guy like Schlereth as opposed to BMitch.  I realize they screen calls and cut callers off, but I’d love for one day someone to challenge how much tape, if any he watches.  I’m always perplexed by how a guy who has played as much football at a high level as BMitch can carve out post-playing career talking football, without really analyzing much football.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Wait until PFF hears about 

 

 

Yep.
 

Jay Gruden, Chris Cooley, and Mark Schlereth have never been around any NFL offense, they got no idea what they are looking at when they criticize the O line.

 

PFF ranks the unit 21st. So case closed. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

What does Schlereth know about O line play?

 

 

He would qualify as a subject matter expert.  
 

 

50 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

“I was watching the film”

 

The primary difference between a guy like Schlereth as opposed to BMitch.  I realize they screen calls and cut callers off, but I’d love for one day someone to challenge how much tape, if any he watches.  I’m always perplexed by how a guy who has played as much football at a high level as BMitch can carve out post-playing career talking football, without really analyzing much football.

 

Doc Walker used to make a big show of “watching tape.”

 

As coach Joe told him at his exit presser (second time) “Shut up Doc. And hit the nose.” 
 

Best advice he’s ever gotten.  
 

They are birds of a feather.  Totally useless at analysis carnival barking shock-jock wannabe fools.

 

(insert “we are now dumber” clip from Billy Maddison here)

[Koolblue13]

7 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Omg yes. 
 

He’s easily number 1. Never seen a guy play so much worse than his measurables.

 

Matt Jones.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

46 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Matt Jones.

It’s been some time so I can’t really remember but did he have really good measurables? I literally forgot he existed until I saw your post lol. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[wit33]

PFF getting trashed while we celebrate the hire of an analytics specialist lol

 

I love this board!

[Conn]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

PFF getting trashed while we celebrate the hire of an analytics specialist lol

 

I love this board!

Were you one of the kids that had a hard time understanding the relationship between a square and a rectangle? That every square is a rectangle but not all rectangles are squares 

[zCommander]

Just now, Conn said:

Were you one of the kids that had a hard time understanding the relationship between a square and a rectangle? That every square is a rectangle but not all rectangles are squares 

 

wit33 only played with stars and circles lol

[wit33]

 

1 hour ago, Conn said:

Were you one of the kids that had a hard time understanding the relationship between a square and a rectangle? That every square is a rectangle but not all rectangles are squares. 
 

 

How young are we talking? 

 

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

wit33 only played with stars and circles lol

Don’t join the fraternity.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

He would qualify as a subject matter expert.  

 

I know I was being sarcastic

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, wit33 said:

PFF getting trashed while we celebrate the hire of an analytics specialist lol

 

I love this board!

 

I am not really down on PFF but as I've explained before you need to factor context in how to use their site and you got to take their stuff with a grain of salt.   I do it all the time on the draft thread.  Where I like this but not that.  I tend to value their sub scores more than their overall scores.   Also them or really anyone else aren't the definitive word about anything.   What players I like and don't like often don't jive with their scores.

 

Even their anaylsts aren't tied to their scores either when you watch their takes especially about college players.  So that's telling to me as heck that even they take their own grades with a grain of salt.  Also its so easy to cherry pick whatever you want from their metrics to serve an agenda.  I gave the example of them evaluating Gates. If you look at his subscores, he was a disaster against the Giants in pass protect but if you look at his overall score, he wasn't that bad at all.  So if you want to sell we are just haters here and Gates isn't as bad as we think he is, there is a score to match that thought.  If you want to think he sucks, there is a score to match that, too.  That's why you got to watch these players and make your own judgments and THEN sometimes PFF scores can be interesting as an addition to that.,  But I never find PFF as a good metric if all I do is look at their scores without watching the player.

 

Ironically even though the favorite metric some like to use to defend the O line is PFF, you can actually trash the O line by using the PFF numbers and use their narratives to boot to do it.  They actually ranked this O line holistically poorly.  Their anaylsts have hyped pressure as the better guage to judge O line, and this O line didn't fare well on that front.

 

But instead some hype that they put sacks more on the QB so since they've put a lot of these sacks on Howell, then heck then PFF thinks this O line is good.  Well on that front yeah in those specific terms but on the front that they judge the O line the most, this O line fares poorly.

 

So in short, if you cherry pick some of their metrics the O line looks good.  If you cherry pick other metrics this O looks bad.  Their own definitive ranking -- ironically ranks this unit as bad.  But we hear very little of that.  So stats can be used to serve an agenda.  Often the stats they have are used to parade a contradictory point since it makes it more interesting and gets more attention.

 

But anyway PFF doesn't summarize anayltics.   Anaytics means many things.  It's using stats in games.  Building rosters.  Stuff that PFF often doesn't dive into much.  Warren Sharp ironically does or at least used to before becoming gambiling obsessed.  And Sharp who is also an anayltics guys has ironically as i pointed out has criticized PFF mode of grading the O line.

 

Think of PFF, Sharp, all these guys as their own chefs.  Teams likes to hire their own chefs and departments to cook.  They aren't all equally good cooks just because they are in the same profession.   A Harvard educated mathametician who has worked in the sport for years who they hired isn't the same as a dude who loves football watching the sport from Ireland like Sam Monson.  Not saying Sam doesn't have some good takes.  He's hit and miss for me.  But its apples to oragnes.  Some of the smarter teams in the NFL are obsessed with anayltics ala the Eagles and Ravens.  

Edited October 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

14 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Del Rio was talking about the last wildcard spot today in his presser. They won’t give up. Their mindset is way different. 

 

No doubt they think they can turn this around.  Keim said they are internally shocked about the poor start because they thought they build a really good roster and they think they had a good camp.  So I don't think internally they've threw in the towell.

 

Rivera with his public comments comes off schizophrenic about this team.  So i'd guess he harbored some internal doubts, too and I bet he has them now.  But I gather they think they will turn this ship around still. 

 

It's glaring I gather even to Rivera at this point about how bad their off season was.  Forbes is on the bench.  Gates is now on the bench.  Barton was struggiling until ther last game.  No other rookie is making an impact. 

 

The Giants are an interesing juxtapostion and I gather Rivera has to notice.  While he's watching Walller put 100 yards and a TD against them.  Hyatt make key catches.  Deonte Banks gave Terry a fight in the secondary.  Okereke having a really good season.  The Giants outcopaching this team again -- coaching around their porous O line against this team while this team struggiling to do the same.   

 

I still hate the Giants O line even when Andrew Thomas and JMS comes back for them so I don't think they will have a good season.  But their schedule up to now was harder than Washington's.  So if I had to guess now, I think Washington ends up last.  As Sam Fortier from the WP said on Keim's podcast, in the frame of 2023, this draft class looks like a disaster at this given time.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

7 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

It’s been some time so I can’t really remember but did he have really good measurables? I literally forgot he existed until I saw your post lol. 

Bro, dude was like 6'3" 240lbs and ran a 4.3 and hand great hands. He was like the second coming of Arian Foster, but he just sucked at football and was soft as ****.

 

He's doing well in USFL or some **** I've heard.