The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[method man]

Unless we finish in the top 5, Howell is going to be part of the pitch to get a hot HC candidate to come here. I think most understand the bust rate even with top 10 QB prospects. Given history, the odds are against a Penix, McCarthy, Nix, etc. What we are seeing is a guy who checks all the boxes except 1) height, 2) time to throw and 3) decisionmaking. You can’t fix #1 but you can fix/work around #2 and #3 with scheme and experience

[zCommander]

17 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

...if they had immediately recovered by drafting a QB and starting the building and development process in 21.  But they didn't.

 

Which QB though? We had the 19th pick that year. Here are the QBs from that draft year:

 

Trevor Lawrence (1st, Jaguars), Zach Wilson (2nd, Jets) and Trey Lance (3rd, 49ers), Justin Fields (11th, Bears), Mac Jones (15th, Patriots), Kyle Trask (64th, Buccaneers), Kellen Mond (66th, Vikings) and Davis Mills (67th, Texans).

 

Now what they should have done was select Howell last year with their 1st pick or even 2nd pick instead of dumping money on the Wentz trade and used that money to build the offense instead. They had Howell on their draft board too. The non-riverboat Ron went with the safer bet. No risk no rewards.

 

How many people thought I was stupid for saying start TH and draft a QB instead. Not looking stupid now am I. Matter of fact I actually said that back in the fall of 2021 season. 

 

But, regardless, I do hold Ron responsible for not doing enough this year to help Howell especially when he already knew he was going to start Howell this year and OL needed a lot of help. But no, getting more defensive players in the draft was more important to him and with all that our D is ranked at the bottom instead. So stupid.

[PeterMP]

10 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

They're going to lose their jobs exactly because they waited until year four to pick a path at QB and essentially start competing in earnest.  If these struggles on offense and defense were happening in the first year of their regime, they would get a huge runway of multiple years to work things out and develop Howell.  Failing in that first year with Haskins wouldn't have killed them if they had immediately recovered by drafting a QB and starting the building and development process in 21.  But they didn't.

 

I don't believe there is such a thing as waiting for the no-brainer prospect to come along.  The decisions about QB are never clean and there are always significant costs weighing in the cost-benefit analysis.  But the regimes that pan out are always decisive and committed to their QB decisions.  KC is an extremely unusual case where they were a high seed before they changed plans at QB and successfully upgraded at the position by trading up for a dicey project QB and developing him into a star.  Nothing about our situation is analogous to them at all.  We're going to have an entirely new regime come in here and essentially start a rebuild from scratch.  Do you want them to take a similar chance on waiting four years to find a path at QB as KC?

 

Kind of feels like anyone who could make the point you are trying to make hasn't really been paying attention to the way the Redskins/Commanders have operated the past 20 years.  Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan, Gruden, and now Rivera all failed as a direct consequence of failing to make a strong plan at QB and form the essential HC-QB marriage in the grace period of their regime.  And in four of those five regimes, their first consequential mistake was attempting to salvage the previous regime's project QB.  It just leads to waffling and indecisiveness on the QB part of the rebuild, and no regime can ever afford to be indecisive about their QB.

 

Our next regime has to make a decision about QB year one.  If they choose Howell, then they need to be able to commit to him long term.  If they waffle on QB like Rivera did, then I promise you we will be looking for another head coach and GM in four years.

 

I don't know what you mean by they started trying to compete in earnest this year.  They didn't gut the team and start over.  To connect this thread to the other thread about the process, they didn't start with running a 1 or 2 of a process situation where they weren't really trying to compete and where doing something like try to gather assets.  That's not trying to compete in earnest and not what they did.

 

The KC situation is directly comparable to ours.  Andy Reid was starting from scratch.  Andy Reid came in and took over a team that was 2-14 the year before and was starting from scratch.  We're not going to be as bad this year as that KC team was.  His response was not to give up a bunch of resources for a QB or force a high pick at QB.  It was to get a guy that he thought could be competent that he got pretty cheaply (2 2nd round picks).  He doesn't think there's a QB at the top of that draft and so takes a tackle.  He doesn't take a QB anywhere in that draft.

 

And again, the issue with Rivera isn't that he's where is at QB.  The issue is that the D is not good and the OL is bad.  If they had a D that performed at the level given the picks and money invested in it and a reasonable OL, we'd be at least 3-2 and people wouldn't be calling on him to be fired.

 

I'll guarantee you that if the next front office forces a pick at QB for a guy that's not worth the value or a trade where they over pay to the point that it prevents them from building a team around a QB, in 4 years we'll be looking at a change in the front office.

 

Depending on what is available and the cost of things given the holes this team has, getting a reasonable QB at a reasonable value (e.g. Alex Smith for 2 2nd round picks) and filling holes at other positions is a completely competent and reasonable thing to do.  And likely will result in you being more successful and keeping your job then forcing something at the QB position just to say you got a QB year 1.

Edited October 8, 2023 by PeterMP

[KDawg]

Watching the Texans and Stroud in particular: the OL is keeping Stroud clean. They allow a halo around him which gives him adequate room to step and throw. For a line that people say is bad they look great. And for the most part their OC is calling quick hitting plays. In weeks 1 and 2 they allowed 11 sacks. The last two weeks going into today: zero. 
 

So what’s changed? Their playcalling. Their strategy. Stroud hasn’t. The OL has a little… Tunsil and Shaq Mason have been consistent (and are better than any of our OL). George Fant had played well at RT and that allowed them to move Tytus Howard to LG next to Tunsil today. Quessenbery is their current starting center.

 

The only one of our OL who an argument can be made that he is better than any of those guys is Cosmi and I’m not sure I’d even buy that argument. 
 

Now, I understand that situation can necessitate playcalls. Being down bit made it so we threw it an unprecedented 55 times in a row. Furthermore, we lead the NFL significantly in 5-man protections. 
 

Strategically… this isn’t great. 
 

The run game will help alleviate the QB hits (by simply not dropping back first and foremost… second because the DL actually has to pay attention to their run responsibilities).

 

The Bears game aside, we do entirely too much passing. And I’m going to say it again… I’m not advocating for balance as in a 1:1 ratio. I’m calling for situational balance. 
 

But, I’ve said all of this about the O but I will say the biggest reason (beyond Bienemy’s OBVIOUS love of passing) is the defense. Houston has a good D. We do not. They aren’t forcing passes for four quarters. We are.

 

I think the Texans have a better overall team than we do, to be honest. And it’s not all that close.

 

[FootballZombie]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The Bears game aside, we do entirely too much passing. And I’m going to say it again… I’m not advocating for balance as in a 1:1 ratio. I’m calling for situational balance. 

 

Yeah, I don't think anybody wants the "hide the QB and run as much as humanly possible" kind of O that we had to run in previous years, but you need some sort of commitment to the run game to keep the D honest.

 

Th Oline's job of protecting Howell is harder when the D-line does not have to worry about silly things like run discipline.

The WRs have to work harder to get open when the LBs and DBs don't have to worry about run support.

 

The Run game gives the D more to worry about and cover. Even when it is not working very well from a yards standpoint, it has numerous other benefits that quite frankly this Offense needs badly.

 

 

We are killing ourselves and our players with what we are currently doing, and we are gonna absolutely obliterate negative records nobody wants if we keep doing it.

[Skinsinparadise]

Caught up with Cooley's last podcast with Sheehan.

 

He thinks the silver lining on Thursday was Howell.  Among other things he half joked that he wiggled himself out of 14 sacks.  He was impressed with his ability to dodge pressure.  Liked his toughness, accuracy.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Caught up with Cooley's last podcast with Sheehan.

 

He thinks the silver lining on Thursday was Howell.  Among other things he half joked that he wiggled himself out of 14 sacks.  He was impressed with his ability to dodge pressure.  Liked his toughness, accuracy.

That can’t be right… didn’t @Voice_of_Reason  tell me that Cooley would blame Howell? 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

That can’t be right… didn’t @Voice_of_Reason  tell me that Cooley would blame Howell? 

 

lol, yeah I listened to the same podcast he did and Cooley was all over the place in that podcast.  He flat out said in that podcast the O line wasn't good.  He went as far as saying he didn't like how ANY of the O lineman were playing in that podcast.  He also flat out said on reflection in that same podcast that guys weren't open, so some of those sacks were coverage sacks. 

 

He also said in that podcast he's not discouraged about Howell based on that game.  So if anyone's takeaway from that podcast was this is on Howell -- impying the O line was OK -- that was cherry picking IMO.  He jumped around a lot on that podcast.

 

If you take that podcast and the last one.  Cooley and Sheehan for that matter don't think much of the O line.  And yeah Cooley flat out said that Howell was great last Thursday at avoiding sacks thanks to his wiggle in that pocket where he escaped the defenders grasp many times.  

 

I don't always agree with Cooley but I often do.  One of things that i like about him is he's not stuck on an opinion, he will change his take.  And its easy to see he started this season lukewarm about Howell but has really warmed up to him as the season has gone on.  Jay, too but I haven't listen to the latest Jay part of the Sheehan podcast yet.

[Skinsinparadise]

if this was Ron, he'd say this is a "little" concerning but will also keep him in the game to get whacked 5 more times -- with 5 step drops in garbage time.

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

9 hours ago, KDawg said:

Watching the Texans and Stroud in particular: the OL is keeping Stroud clean. They allow a halo around him which gives him adequate room to step and throw. For a line that people say is bad they look great. And for the most part their OC is calling quick hitting plays. In weeks 1 and 2 they allowed 11 sacks. The last two weeks going into today: zero. 
 

So what’s changed? Their playcalling. Their strategy. Stroud hasn’t. The OL has a little… Tunsil and Shaq Mason have been consistent (and are better than any of our OL). George Fant had played well at RT and that allowed them to move Tytus Howard to LG next to Tunsil today. Quessenbery is their current starting center.

 

The only one of our OL who an argument can be made that he is better than any of those guys is Cosmi and I’m not sure I’d even buy that argument. 
 

Now, I understand that situation can necessitate playcalls. Being down bit made it so we threw it an unprecedented 55 times in a row. Furthermore, we lead the NFL significantly in 5-man protections. 
 

Strategically… this isn’t great. 
 

The run game will help alleviate the QB hits (by simply not dropping back first and foremost… second because the DL actually has to pay attention to their run responsibilities).

 

The Bears game aside, we do entirely too much passing. And I’m going to say it again… I’m not advocating for balance as in a 1:1 ratio. I’m calling for situational balance. 
 

But, I’ve said all of this about the O but I will say the biggest reason (beyond Bienemy’s OBVIOUS love of passing) is the defense. Houston has a good D. We do not. They aren’t forcing passes for four quarters. We are.

 

I think the Texans have a better overall team than we do, to be honest. And it’s not all that close.

 

Howell is 4th in the NFL in passing attempts - 7th in passing yardage. 
 

For a guy in his first year starting with 6 career starts behind him, that’s crazy. He’s doing as well as we could reasonably have hoped, taking some sacks he could avoid but apart from that he’s been really good. But putting the whole offense on his shoulders is asking a heck of a lot.

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

if this was Ron, he'd say this is a "little" concerning but will also keep him in the game to get whacked 5 more times -- with 5 step drops in garbage time.

 

 

 

Considering Daniel Jones always becomes Josh Allen whenever he plays us, I hope he will miss 2 games due to his neck injury.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

Considering Daniel Jones always becomes Josh Allen whenever he plays us, I hope he will miss 2 games due to his neck injury.

You kidding? Our D will have people asking why Tyrod Taylor hasn’t been a starter this whole time 

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

4 hours ago, Conn said:

You kidding? Our D will have people asking why Tyrod Taylor hasn’t been a starter this whole time 

Well that's true. We're screwed either way.

[method man]

8 hours ago, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

Considering Daniel Jones always becomes Josh Allen whenever he plays us, I hope he will miss 2 games due to his neck injury.

I saw a quote where DJ said he is feeling the same level of pain in his neck as a couple years ago when his season was cut short

[Warhead36]

What's frustrating is that, while Howell isn't elite or anything, he's definitely good enough to win with and is absolutely a big upgrade over anything we've had since 2018 Alex Smith. Unfortunately we've let the rest of the team deteriorate. 

[CobraCommander]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

What's frustrating is that, while Howell isn't elite or anything, he's definitely good enough to win with and is absolutely a big upgrade over anything we've had since 2018 Alex Smith. Unfortunately we've let the rest of the team deteriorate. 

It just doesn't make any sense that the Defense would be this bad. It doesn't add up. We were fine defensively last year with largely the same cast. 

[KDawg]

12 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

It just doesn't make any sense that the Defense would be this bad. It doesn't add up. We were fine defensively last year with largely the same cast. 

 

I don't know. I think it adds.

 

Sweat is a good pass rusher and undisciplined against the run. He's slightly improved there, so slight upgrade on his side.

 

Young is playing relatively well. He's not gamebreaking but he's playing well. Upgrade there.

 

The defensive tackles have regressed to the mean, so slight downgrade, but still okay there.

 

Jamin Davis is better than last year by a little bit. So slight upgrade.

 

Cody Barton is a significant downgrade.

 

Curl is Curl. Same.

 

Forrest has taken a step back and since for some reason we play Percy Butler we have taken a major downgrade when he's on the field.

 

Fuller and St Juste are just about the same. Forbes has played worse than any corner who saw significant time in 2022. We downgraded at CB somehow.

 

Our slot corner play hasn't been quite the same as it was last year. Slight downgrade. 

 

Overall our defense has downgraded.

[CobraCommander]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

I don't know. I think it adds.

 

Sweat is a good pass rusher and undisciplined against the run. He's slightly improved there, so slight upgrade on his side.

 

Young is playing relatively well. He's not gamebreaking but he's playing well. Upgrade there.

 

The defensive tackles have regressed to the mean, so slight downgrade, but still okay there.

 

Jamin Davis is better than last year by a little bit. So slight upgrade.

 

Cody Barton is a significant downgrade.

 

Curl is Curl. Same.

 

Forrest has taken a step back and since for some reason we play Percy Butler we have taken a major downgrade when he's on the field.

 

Fuller and St Juste are just about the same. Forbes has played worse than any corner who saw significant time in 2022. We downgraded at CB somehow.

 

Our slot corner play hasn't been quite the same as it was last year. Slight downgrade. 

 

Overall our defense has downgraded.

I just found out Cody Barton calls the plays. Obviously he calls in what JDR calls but still. How is that guy the leader on our defense? 

[method man]

3 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

I just found out Cody Barton calls the plays. Obviously he calls in what JDR calls but still. How is that guy the leader on our defense? 

Bostic is a great example of a highly intelligent player that is a coach on the field who just can’t play the game himself

[Warhead36]

One terrible player can make an entire defense suck. Remember William Jackson? Or some of those awful Safeties we had in the Gruden era?

 

Right now we have two in Barton and Forbes. Imagine instead if we resigned Holcomb and drafted Gonzalez. We're probably 4-1 and talking playoff scenarios, not draft boards.

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

1 hour ago, method man said:

I saw a quote where DJ said he is feeling the same level of pain in his neck as a couple years ago when his season was cut short

Yep, however he also said to his HC, " I'm fine. I'll be ok. " On the other hand, Guice said the same thing and then a mri confirmed that his season was over. So I guess we can't trust comments from players.

48 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

It just doesn't make any sense that the Defense would be this bad. It doesn't add up. We were fine defensively last year with largely the same cast. 

Yep, it's inexplicable how the same players and same coaches can go from having a good unit to sucking terribly from one season to the next. Highly frustrating.

[lovemaskins]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

One terrible player can make an entire defense suck. Remember William Jackson? Or some of those awful Safeties we had in the Gruden era?

 

Right now we have two in Barton and Forbes. Imagine instead if we resigned Holcomb and drafted Gonzalez. We're probably 4-1 and talking playoff scenarios, not draft boards.

Aside from having absolutely poor linebacker play, maybe worst in the league, I’ve never liked JDR scheme. Too reactionary. He doesn’t dictate, force his will so to speak. It’s all vanilla 4 man rush, cover 3/4 shell. Doesn’t blitz. Feels like the defense is on its heels all game. If the front 4 doesn’t win, the defense loses. 
 

just watching Pittsburgh yesterday for example, they bring it! All day! You’re gonna have to beat them, they’re not gonna let you walk up and down the field. The best coordinators coach that way. And sure they’ll get beat too, but you can’t play not to lose, gotta play to win. 

[method man]

10 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

One terrible player can make an entire defense suck. Remember William Jackson? Or some of those awful Safeties we had in the Gruden era?

 

Right now we have two in Barton and Forbes. Imagine instead if we resigned Holcomb and drafted Gonzalez. We're probably 4-1 and talking playoff scenarios, not draft boards.

I was initially thinking that but I think it is also coaching. It is telling that Forrest has regressed quite a bit this year and Butler doesn’t seem to have developed much. Also telling Martin is even less ready to play than Forbes based on what we saw in preseason. The safeties have also been responsible for the coverage busts. Until the SF game last year, there were a stretch of games where the D played very well without Holcomb (who was lost for the year relatively early). 
 

The guys playing well or relatively well are Fuller, BSJ & Curl, the higher IQ vets who are less dependent on coaching

 

I highly doubt that our lead secondary coach Visselmeyer will have a job in the NFL next year. If I recall correctly, JDR plucked him from the HS ranks after coaching his son

 

EDIT: This is one of the worst lead position coach resumes I have ever seen:

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by method man

[NoCalMike]

Defense gave up 40 points to The Bears......so I am done hearing about what Howell needs to do better for the time being.  Of course he has things to work on, he's in his first year as a starter, however he hasn't really been the problem and hasn't played bad outside of one game where the entire team laid an egg (Buffalo game). 

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Defense gave up 40 points to The Bears......so I am done hearing about what Howell needs to do better for the time being.  Of course he has things to work on, he's in his first year as a starter, however he hasn't really been the problem and hasn't played bad outside of one game where the entire team laid an egg (Buffalo game). 

I would say he was bad in the Arizona game and 1st half of the Denver game(along with the entire team). He was great in the 2nd half of the Denver and Chicago games and the entirety of the Philly game.

 

For the most part,  Howell has been about what I've expected. Some good, some bad, when he's good he's GOOD but when he's bad he's BAD. QB development is often a roller coaster, not linear, with the hope being that when he's bad the rest of the team can pick him up(which they did in the Arizona game).

 

Right now he and the offense are basically being asked to carry the team and I don't know if he(or the offense)are built for that right now. And that's not on him.