The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I can’t believe all the posts I just read wanting (or willing / ready) to move on from Howell. You guys are ****ing bonkers.

[RFK Lives]

The guy is 6 games started in this league.  He's tough and did you see some of the throws last night?  The pick was bad, the ball behind Brown, eh, he threw a good ball the next play but the dime he dropped for McLaurin?  That was sick and much better than what we have had in house for a while.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, ixcuincle said:

 

 

 

These nerd stats are starting to piss me off. IT wasn't howell's fault last night. Howell wasn't to blame for getting sacked 5 times by a team that had 2 sacks coming into the game. 

 

I'm had it up to here with neil lol. The QB isn't the issue in DC...for once...

I do agree on the nerd stats.

 

I count two sacks last night where I was screaming at him to get rid of it and he ate the sack.

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I can’t believe all the posts I just read wanting (or willing / ready) to move on from Howell. You guys are ****ing bonkers.

This season should be all about getting Howell every snap possible.

 

I think he's shown enough that he can be at the very least an average to decent starter in this league. Unfortunately it won't be here. He'll leave after the new regime takes over and probably have a solid career elsewhere.

[ntotoro]

The downside of living in the analytics era? Too much emphasis put on stupid logic with faulty data that makes this O-Line look like the 6th-best when calling it the 6th-worst would actually be overrating it.

[Going Commando]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I do agree on the nerd stats.

 

I count two sacks last night where I was screaming at him to get rid of it and he ate the sack.

 

He has no feel for the pocket at all.  When he does read pressure, he either scrambles into the backs of his OLs or directly into the rush.  It's why I don't think running with him more is going to fix blocking issues.  He runs into his blockers constantly because he just doesn't see them.

[Warhead36]

JP said it best on Junkies. I don't know if Howell is the guy or not, but he's soooo far down the list of problems right now.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

He has no feel for the pocket at all.  When he does read pressure, he either scrambles into the backs of his OLs or directly into the rush.  It's why I don't think running with him more is going to fix blocking issues.  He runs into his blockers constantly because he just doesn't see them.

He could definitely be better at this, but easier said than done when most every pocket is dirty.  Compare that to to the guys who have been shredding our D, ordering a pizza and making throws with clean feet and throwing lanes.

Edited October 6, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Going Commando]

7 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

He could definitely be better at this, but easier said than done when most every pocket is dirty.  Compare that to to the guys who have been shredding our D, ordering a pizza and making throws with clean feet and throwing lanes.

 

I don't care what kind of OL you build, you're going to have muddy pockets in the NFL when you throw 50 times a game and have trouble working through your reads fast enough to get the ball out on time.  And conversely, it's easy to play QB against a defense who adjusts to nothing, who doesn't disguise coverages or pressures effectively at all, whose safeties are absolute non factors, and when your first reads are getting open against weak single coverage.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

29 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I don't care what kind of OL you build, you're going to have muddy pockets in the NFL when you throw 50 times a game and have trouble working through your reads fast enough to get the ball out on time.

Yeah, well if we are going to get rid of every quarterback who the game hasn’t slowed down for after six starts, we’re going to perpetually be in search of the next guy. The kid looks promising. He needs to be given the chance to develop here.

[KDawg]

Howell is fine. 
 

The OL is atrocious and despite some people’s beliefs they matter. I don’t know how some folks can be banging the table for an interior IOL in the first and then completely disregard the OLs impact on the offense, but here we are.

 

Howell does hold the ball. Howell does struggle to find escape lanes sometimes (not because he doesn’t see the blockers… but because he can’t see passed them which is it’s own issue). But he’s also a baller player with a rocket who plays a fearless brand of football. 
 

If you don’t think the OL is effecting him

at all you’re misplacing your anger and frustration.

 

Having said that… the same can be said vice versa. There have absolutely been times where he affects the protection as well. 
 

Our OL, playcalls and even our receivers also share in the blame. I watched that edge blitz about 8 times last night. He comes off the edge, the Bears roll perfect to man pick ups and Howell is getting pasted before he even knows. Now, that one I actually don’t put on anyone. Chicago called the better play in that situation. Our OL wasn’t at fault, or even our receivers. But every time Howell gets sacked everyone is yelling for him to get rid of the ball…

 

To who? If you want him to throw to the sideline, okay… but he can’t throw to the sideline if he’s going to take a hit. Why? Because that is when the ball floats, stays in play and goes back for six. 
 

That’s when some of the same folks say, “why didn’t he just take the sack?!”

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

35 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I don't care what kind of OL you build, you're going to have muddy pockets in the NFL when you throw 50 times a game and have trouble working through your reads fast enough to get the ball out on time.  And conversely, it's easy to play QB against a defense who adjusts to nothing, who doesn't disguise coverages or pressures effectively at all, whose safeties are absolute non factors, and when your first reads are getting open against weak single coverage.

Sam has made plenty of throws from dirty pockets.  Almost every throw is contested in some way.  As opposed to our opponents who have all day to order the pizza, eat it, and then deliver a pass with clear throwing lanes and as much grass as he wants to cleanly plant and deliver to a wide open receiver.

[Koolblue13]

Our OL can't hold their blocks

 

Our WRs aren't getting open.

 

Our play calling is terrible

 

Our scheme sucks

 

Sam may or may not work out, but he's hardly the priority issue.

[Chachie]

20 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Our OL can't hold their blocks

 

Our WRs aren't getting open.

 

Our play calling is terrible

 

Our scheme sucks

 

Sam may or may not work out, but he's hardly the priority issue.

 

 

 

He's the only player on the entire squad I hope to keep.

 

Yes, I include Terry among the expendables, albeit he's the 2nd most desired keeper. He can catch anything thrown at him but he just doesn't get open like the A-list WRs. Can't expect a QB to throw consistently to a 1st option that doesn't seem open. I love the guy but he's not living up to the hype we heap on him.

 

Nobody else on this player roster would kill us if they left town. Not a single man.

 

 

[Going Commando]

23 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Yeah, well if we are going to get rid of every quarterback who the game hasn’t slowed down for after six starts, we’re going to perpetually be in search of the next guy. The kid looks promising. He needs to be given the chance to develop here.

 

In an ideal situation, he would get that chance.  Unfortunately his entire coaching staff is about to get fired, and he doesn't have time to learn on the job here.

 

The next regime should not make the mistake of waiting four years to make a choice at QB like Rivera did.  They have to make their choice on Howell this off-season, and if they pass over QB, then they have to be comfortable staking their regime on Howell.  Is that gonna happen?  I would be shocked.  But I also thought Rivera was poised to make a run with this team and instead he's completely **** the bed.  All I know is, if a brand new owner paid 6 billion dollars for a team and hired me to run it and said go get your quarterback, I would not stake my rebuild on Ron Rivera's project QB.  I would absolutely go up and get Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.

[Mr. Sinister]

No o-line, no defense, no elite tight end. No nothing.

 

They absolutely failed Howell

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Chachie said:

He's the only player on the entire squad I hope to keep.

 

Would you be comfortable saddling the next regime with Howell?  Rivera's cooked, and this is the major team building question we face after we find the next GM and HC.  Who is gonna be their QB?  That question has got to be answered this winter, because you can't actually start your build until you make your plan at QB.

 

Personally there is no ****ing way I would want to go down the same road with Howell and the next FO that we already went down with Ramsey, Campbell, RGIII, and Haskins.  If they pick Howell, then OK.  But that'd be their pick and they need have to stick by it.  I wouldn't do it myself, and I think it'd be cleaner and better for everyone involved to make a clear decision and put a bunch of skin in the game with a QB by going up and getting one of these QBs in the '24 draft.  I don't think Howell is good enough to bet everything on, and I don't know how much better he can realistically get before decision time comes.  But he's not a bad player and we have a hard decision about him to make, and whoever gets put in charge next is going to earn their money by what they decide.

 

But we have a new owner who just spent 6 billion dollars to take control of the team.  He is going to want a big move to get a franchise QB.  My guess is that he's not going to mess around with Ron Rivera's day 3 project QB.  My expectation is that he gives the next FO the greenlight to trade what it takes to get Caleb Williams.

[Mr. Sinister]

Yeah, saddling a new staff with a QB they didn't select is always a bad idea, unless that QB is elite.

 

Sam is on track to be the next Rich Gannon/Trent Green... IE a promising guy that might go on to have success somewhere else.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mr. Sinister

[Ball Security]

4 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Would you be comfortable saddling the next regime with Howell?  Rivera's cooked, and this is the major team building question we face after we find the next GM and HC.  Who is gonna be their QB?  That question has got to be answered this winter, because you can't actually start your build until you make your plan at QB.

 

Personally there is no ****ing way I would want to go down the same road with Howell and the next FO that we already went down with Ramsey, Campbell, RGIII, and Haskins.  If they pick Howell, then OK.  But that'd be their pick and they need have to stick by it.  I wouldn't do it myself, and I think it'd be cleaner and better for everyone involved to make a clear decision and put a bunch of skin in the game with a QB by going up and getting one of these QBs in the '24 draft.  I don't think Howell is good enough to bet everything on, and I don't know how much better he can realistically get before decision time comes.  But he's not a bad player and we have a hard decision about him to make, and whoever gets put in charge next is going to earn their money by what they decide.

 

But we have a new owner who just spent 6 billion dollars to take control of the team.  He is going to want a big move to get a franchise QB.  My guess is that he's not going to mess around with Ron Rivera's day 3 project QB.  My expectation is that he gives the next FO the greenlight to trade what it takes to get Caleb Williams.

I can’t see any team that ends up picking first trading out of the opportunity to get Williams. That includes Denver, Chicago, and Carolina. Only way we end up with Williams is if we go winless the rest of the season and those teams scratch out more wins.

[Chachie]

2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Would you be comfortable saddling the next regime with Howell?  Rivera's cooked, and this is the major team building question we face after we find the next GM and HC.  Who is gonna be their QB?  That question has got to be answered this winter, because you can't actually start your build until you make your plan at QB.

 

Personally there is no ****ing way I would want to go down the same road with Howell and the next FO that we already went down with Ramsey, Campbell, RGIII, and Haskins.  If they pick Howell, then OK.  But that'd be their pick and they need have to stick by it.  I wouldn't do it myself, and I think it'd be cleaner and better for everyone involved to make a clear decision and put a bunch of skin in the game with a QB by going up and getting one of these QBs in the '24 draft.  I don't think Howell is good enough to bet everything on, and I don't know how much better he can realistically get before decision time comes.  But he's not a bad player and we have a hard decision about him to make, and whoever gets put in charge next is going to earn their money by what they decide.

 

But we have a new owner who just spent 6 billion dollars to take control of the team.  He is going to want a big move to get a franchise QB.  My guess is that he's not going to mess around with Ron Rivera's day 3 project QB.  My expectation is that he gives the next FO the greenlight to trade what it takes to get Caleb Williams.

 

 

 

Certainly a valid rebuttal, GC. I won't debate any of it.

 

I personally see the best arm talent and the coolest head we've had in decades. We won't know where he truly ranks among the current better NFL quarterbacks until we can protect him and I'm willing to give him that time. I really like the kid. Just my take on it. He's the only player we have that shows me some genuine upside for years to come. There is better out there but they all have experience and pedigree. We have Sam. 

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Yeah, saddling a new staff with a QB they didn't select is always a bad idea, unless that QB is elite.

 

Sam is on track to be the next Rich Gannon/Trent Green... IE a promising guy that might go on to have success somewhere else.

 

Or the next Baker Mayfield.  Dudes like this can play, and they get screwed by instability in their FO/organization.  You can work your ass off, play hurt, sacrifice, cheerfully accept any role the coaches give you, and just generally do everything you're supposed to in the NFL, and still not have things work out because of circumstances beyond your control.

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

I can’t see any team that ends up picking first trading out of the opportunity to get Williams. That includes Denver, Chicago, and Carolina. Only way we end up with Williams is if we go winless the rest of the season and those teams scratch out more wins.

 

I think it's going to be really hard for teams like Denver, Cleveland, Arizona, NYG, NYJ, etc. to change gears at QB given their current QB contracts.  And Chicago could end up picking 1 and 2 because they have Carolina's draft pick.  If that happens, then one of those two QBs is going to be for sale.  I don't care which one goes first, I'd gladly take either of them at #2.  But Williams as a charismatic superstar prospect with a local connection seems like the kind of player that Josh Harris would move heaven and earth to get.

[Anselmheifer]

I watched the game last night and we haven’t seen a QB here that makes big time clutch plays and has that kind of arm and accuracy here in forever. He has passes that we haven’t had QB’s here make in forever. The dime that Logan dropped in the second half last night, for instance. 
 

I heard on PFF that sack rate often isn’t something you can count on QB’s to improve with time in the NFL. 
 

But, he absolutely is going to get better with his processing speed and reads, and honestly, he looks pretty good in that area now for a 2nd year QB. He hit what, 11 different receivers against the broncos? It’s not like he locks in on a primary. 
 

I struggle with this. I don’t think he’s ever going to be a top 5 QB, but if we upgraded the OL and added a real weapon at TE, I think you could get top 10 production out of him. 
 

Which is another way of saying, I don’t think Howell is ever going to be the kind of elite QB talent to elevate a mediocre offensive offensive roster, but I do think he can produce T a very high level if you surround him with talent. I think he could be on a Dak Prescott or Jalen Hurts level. 

[Skins24]

27 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

But, he absolutely is going to get better with his processing speed and reads, and honestly, he looks pretty good in that area now for a 2nd year QB. He hit what, 11 different receivers against the broncos? It’s not like he locks in on a primary. 

 

I struggle with this. I don’t think he’s ever going to be a top 5 QB, but if we upgraded the OL and added a real weapon at TE, I think you could get top 10 production out of him.

 

Hit 11 different receivers yesterday, 10 vs the Broncos (9 vs the Eagles.)

He's been excellent in spreading the ball around.

 

In terms of yards, he may be a top 5 QB. Only for the fact that we pass it 50 times a game....

[PeterMP]

42 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Would you be comfortable saddling the next regime with Howell?  Rivera's cooked, and this is the major team building question we face after we find the next GM and HC.  Who is gonna be their QB?  That question has got to be answered this winter, because you can't actually start your build until you make your plan at QB.

 

I've seen this point, and I think it is being over blown.

 

Even this regime, they aren't going to lose their jobs because they waited to get Howell.  They are going to lose their jobs because they put a ton of resources into the defense, and it isn't very good, and the decisions they've made about the OL haven't panned out.  The fact that Haskins was here and QB for a year isn't really the critical thing.

 

If the D was elite, which it should be given the resources they've put into it, we wouldn't have more than 2 loses and probably only 1 and people wouldn't be talking about firing them.

 

And forcing something on the QB front and making a mistake is worse than waiting until you can actually get a good QB.

 

Look at when Reid went to the Chiefs, he sent 2 2nd round picks for Alex Smith.  I doubt at the time he thought that Smith was the answer but was looking to get reasonable QB play.  And then waited several years until drafting Mahomes.

 

If you think that Howell can be a competent QB and you don't see a good way to get somebody that is clearly better (I've said this isn't a good team, but I also don't think they are top 2 draft picks bad and trading up to the top of an NFL draft is expensive enough that I'm not sure it is worth it.), then fixing the rest of the team, letting Howell develop more until you can better/more easily get a guy that you think will be a top flight QB makes sense.

 

Forcing the acquisition of a QB year 1 if you don't have the pick to get one and having to pay to move up into the top of draft to get one is very expensive and handicaps your ability to build the rest of the roster is a mistake.