The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[formerly4skins]

1 hour ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

Ron strikes me as a man that knows when to step back and learn. He controls his ego well. I also am not in a rush to see him ushered out but would love to see him slowly step back into an administrator role and just lend his experience to the younger coaches/talent scouts

Problem is, something he doesn't do is win games consistently...and he really hasn't won much of anything without Cam Newton. 

 

He also doesn't seem to evaluate talent all that well (constant woes with the LB group) or be particularly adept at allocating resources. Unless they put together a great season this year, I don't see how you elevate a guy like that to the FO.

 

Ron is a stand up guy...but if he doesn't win a playoff game he'll get canned, and he'll deserve it. 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by formerly4skins

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, zCommander said:

Commanders QB Sam Howell couldn't 'care less' about outside opinions on his chances of success

 

 

One thing Howell is hearing at the team's facility is some familiar offensive concepts. New offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy is bringing with him a playbook chock full of run-pass option calls, something Howell did a lot of in college at North Carolina but which was not a major part of Commanders OC Scott Turner's offense last year.

 

"Yeah, RPOs, man, that's pretty much all we did in college," Howell said. "So all of our run-game stuff in college was RPO stuff, and last year's offense wasn't near as much of that. But in (Bieniemy's) offense there is a lot of RPO stuff and a lot of stuff that I'm very familiar with -- similar concepts, some of the exact same concepts that we ran at UNC.

 

"So I'm very confident in my RPO game, and I'm excited to have the ability to do that, because I love that type of stuff and I think you can really make defenses wrong in the run game when you have the RPO ability, so I'm excited that EB's kinda brought that stuff over to us."

 

More Here: https://www.nfl.com/news/commanders-qb-sam-howell-couldn-t-care-less-about-outside-opinions-on-his-chance

All of this is good info but I wish he would keep his damn trap shut about what’s in the offense.  
 

I mean, I’m sure everybody kinda already knows.  But why say “same concepts as what we ran at UNC.”  Now DCs are going to be comparing UNC and Chiefs film to see if they can find a tell….

 

it is cool to know though.  
 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, formerly4skins said:

Ron is a stand up guy...but if he doesn't win a playoff game he'll get canned, and he'll deserve it. 

I mean, if he doesn’t make the playoffs he probably is not retained. 
 

I think everybody needs to remember Ron had to deal with Dan as an owner and all that came with it.  Which is a lot.

 

And somehow he always kept the team competitive.  He even managed to win games with a horrendously awful backup XFL QB for almost 2 full years.  
 

So… I cut him slack.  I was higher on Ron before, but I’m wondering if with new ownership and less noise he’ll do a lot better. 

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, formerly4skins said:

Problem is, something he doesn't do is win games consistently...and he really hasn't won much of anything without Cam Newton. 

 

He also doesn't seem to evaluate talent all that well (constant woes with the LB group) or be particularly adept at allocating resources. Unless they put together a great season this year, I don't see how you elevate a guy like that to the FO.

 

Ron is a stand up guy...but if he doesn't win a playoff game he'll get canned, and he'll deserve it. 

 

If Harris really wants to turn things around; he moves on from Ron.

 

The success Ron had, was due to Cam being in his prime.  Once Cam got hurt and was done, Panthers stopped winning. He’s done nothing better here. Last winning season was 2017.

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If Harris really wants to turn things around; he moves on from Ron.

 

The success Ron had, was due to Cam being in his prime.  Once Cam got hurt and was done, Panthers stopped winning. He’s done nothing better here. Last winning season was 2017.

 

I know this may seem completely wacky and out of left field...but I'm getting this impression that you don't like Ron.

[zCommander]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

All of this is good info but I wish he would keep his damn trap shut about what’s in the offense.  
 

I mean, I’m sure everybody kinda already knows.  But why say “same concepts as what we ran at UNC.”  Now DCs are going to be comparing UNC and Chiefs film to see if they can find a tell….

 

it is cool to know though.  
 

 

 

Well my first thought was cha-ching as in playoffs.

 

I am going to enjoy the DCs trying to stop Howell though.   

[formerly4skins]

39 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think everybody needs to remember Ron had to deal with Dan as an owner and all that came with it.  Which is a lot.

Hard to argue with this.

 

At the same time, Dan didn't make Ron such a bad evaluator of talent that he hasn't been able to find a competent LB in going on 4 yrs...or ride our boy Mr. XFL at QB for 2 years...or think Wentz was a decent replacement...or believe Scott Turner was a competent OC.

 

And, Dan didn't make him so befuddled that he completely failed to grasp the playoff implications of a late season game....that, to me, was almost unforgivable.

 

Now, I hope Ron gets it together with Dan gone...i really do, that would be amazing. I'll just be kind of shocked if he does. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by formerly4skins
a word

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I know this may seem completely wacky and out of left field...but I'm getting this impression that you don't like Ron.

I wonder: @88Comrade2000 with Ron or me with Jay? Which poster had a bigger problem with the HC?

 
I think it’s probably @88Comrade2000.  
 

But it might be close.  The difference of course is my hatred wasn’t blind hatred.  And oddly the only time I called for his firing was to possibly hire McVay which never was going to happen.  

[zCommander]

26 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If Harris really wants to turn things around; he moves on from Ron.

 

The success Ron had, was due to Cam being in his prime.  Once Cam got hurt and was done, Panthers stopped winning. He’s done nothing better here. Last winning season was 2017.

 

When Ron was in Carolina did the owner pick the QB and other players for the coach after playing Madden?

 

I am not saying Ron hasn't made any mistakes. He has. But, Ron hasn't even had a chance to get a real QB in the backfield since Alex went down. Now with the Danny boy gone and the weight on his shoulder lifted ... I rather see how he does it this year with a possible franchise QB in Howell and with full support of the new owners instead of looking over his shoulder. Sure you can ding him for the OL woes but how much was that on Dan though? Dan was selling so no way he was going to spend any money on the OL. 

 

Btw, when you do an experiment and remove an obstacle you have to wait and see how it will end. Dan is now gone. The future will come. I rather look at what is happening in training camp and pre-season and then regular season first. 

[XxSpearheadxX]

2 hours ago, formerly4skins said:

 

Ron is a stand up guy...but if he doesn't win a playoff game he'll get canned, and he'll deserve it. 

 

Most likely yes, but I feel like if this season somehow truly veers off the rails Ron will be stepping down before the end of the season. 

 

I have a very good feeling about this year and our future head coach Eric Bienemy. 

[SkinsFTW]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 I was higher on Ron before, but I’m wondering if with new ownership and less noise he’ll do a lot better. 

 

Well, it certainly didn't help him any the last time he coached a team with a new owner. 

[Conn]

2 hours ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

Most likely yes, but I feel like if this season somehow truly veers off the rails Ron will be stepping down before the end of the season. 

 

I have a very good feeling about this year and our future head coach Eric Bienemy. 

I just don’t understand these posts. For EB to deserve the HC spot, he needs to develop Howell and kill it on offense.

 

If he does that, Rivera will also thrive—unless the strength of the team, the defense, falters big time. Which I don’t think anybody is projecting. 

 

So in what reality does Bieniemy excel but Rivera fail? 

 

And if the QB/offense fails and leads to Rivera getting fired—how in the world will that reflect positively on EB? 

[FootballZombie]

5 minutes ago, Conn said:

I just don’t understand these posts. For EB to deserve the HC spot, he needs to develop Howell and kill it on offense.

 

If he does that, Rivera will also thrive—unless the strength of the team, the defense, falters big time. Which I don’t think anybody is projecting. 

 

So in what reality does Bieniemy excel but Rivera fail? 

 

And if the QB/offense fails and leads to Rivera getting fired—how in the world will that reflect positively on EB?

 

 

A lot of peeps are too convinced Rivy hired a guy to succeed him despite an upcoming ownership change and not even knowing who the group would be at the time. That's madness in my book. Makes zero logical sense.

 

Even more so when that new guy has never been a head coach, and has never done the high level things required of even an OC like installing your own Offense and calling plays...

 

Too many general assumptions that Rivy bows out and gets out of EBs way once everything is all honky-dory

 

Its a pretzel of a logic loop.

[goskins10]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

All of this is good info but I wish he would keep his damn trap shut about what’s in the offense.  

 

 

You don't think he cleared it with the coaches before he spoke? This is another part of the season where there is a lot of subterfuge from players and coaches.  

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I mean, I’m sure everybody kinda already knows.  But why say “same concepts as what we ran at UNC.”  Now DCs are going to be comparing UNC and Chiefs film to see if they can find a tell….

 

More important is If they were not already doing that (or having staff do it) then they are dumb and will not be employed long. Nothing Howell said should be sending any DCs anyplace new. They should have already been all over that. It's not like the KC offense is a secret. The DCs have already seen the similarities and identified what Sam did in college that aligns with the KC offense and developed the beginnings of defenses. 

 

 

7 hours ago, formerly4skins said:

Hard to argue with this.

 

At the same time, Dan didn't make Ron such a bad evaluator of talent that he hasn't been able to find a competent LB in going on 4 yrs...or ride our boy Mr. XFL at QB for 2 years...or think Wentz was a decent replacement...or believe Scott Turner was a competent OC.

 

This roster is head and shoulders above what it was when Ron got here. If he was so bad at evaluating players how did we get there? It's very easy to rag on the failures and ignore the successes. More importantly, it's more than just a little likely that Dan messed with any real plans they had to get players they wanted. Need to see how this goes without dan to see what is Ron and what was mini me's responsiblity. BTW: No one is perfect. Look at Bill B draft record if you want to see a lot of failures. No, I am NOT comparing Ron to Bill B. So let's just not go there. The point is even the best minds get it wrong, and more than we realize because we don't follow those teams. 

 

7 hours ago, formerly4skins said:

 

And, Dan didn't make him so befuddled that he completely failed to grasp the playoff implications of a late season game....that, to me, was almost unforgivable.

 

That was a brain fart in the spur of the moment. Do you really think he had no idea? I severely doubt it. But even if he didn't, there are others paid to keep him informed. They didn't. That was a total non-issue for me. 

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, if he doesn’t make the playoffs he probably is not retained. 

 

I think everybody needs to remember Ron had to deal with Dan as an owner and all that came with it.  Which is a lot.

 

And somehow he always kept the team competitive.  He even managed to win games with a horrendously awful backup XFL QB for almost 2 full years.  
 

So… I cut him slack.  I was higher on Ron before, but I’m wondering if with new ownership and less noise he’ll do a lot better. 

 

 

I do not think this is the threshold for the new management. I believe it's one of two paths: 

 

1. This is a evaluation year. Ws and Ls, while important are not as critical as how everyone functions in their role. Ron can do a very good job and still not make the POs. Conversely he could make a mountain of mistakes but still make the POs despite that. Does the team respond? Are they working hard for him? Can they see tangible improvement with the shackles taken off? I would want to know  that before letting someone like Ron go. But that’s me. 

 

2., This is an evaluation year for the players but the FO and most if not all the coaches are gone. They want to clean house completely. 

 

I am 100% OK with either approach. I really think Ron has a much better chance of being here in 2024 than people think unless the new owners are on plan 2. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by goskins10

[Conn]

28 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Ws and Ls while important are not a critical as how ecveryone fubnctions in thier role. Ron can do a very good job and still not make the POs.

Expand on this, if you would 

[dyst]

I’m so excited about Howell’s potential. He hits receivers in stride at all levels and if that translates this year, it could end up being a solid team.

[88Comrade2000]

The only way EB becomes coach is that Ron gets fired and EB is made an interim coach and then turns things around and leads us to the playoffs and probably wins a game.  Then the brain trust will decide EB should be given the gig and probably given a 3 year deal.

 

Usually interim coaches don’t get the permanent gig. Art Shell in his first go around with Raiders ; got the permanent gig and had a good run. Jason Garrett had a long run from his interim gig. Interim coaches that got permanent gig usually aren’t successful. Leslie Frazer and Mike Singletary weren’t successful.

 

 

EB path to head coaching lies with turning around the offense enough and going elsewhere.

 

As has been mentioned, if we are successful than Ron stays and EB  goes elsewhere. 
 

If Ron gets fired, wouldn’t that mean offense also sucks? Which would kill the EB fantasy and Jack would be interim coach.

 

 

We will find out pretty quickly.

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

Expand on this, if you would 

First, I fixed the many typos - the point was if you are not just cleaning house then your coaches/FO evaluation is by person as much or more than the resulting Ws and Ls.  Specific people may do a great job, maybe even the entire staff, but it may not translate into Ws due to things not in their control.  

[redskinss]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, if he doesn’t make the playoffs he probably is not retained. 
 

I think everybody needs to remember Ron had to deal with Dan as an owner and all that came with it.  Which is a lot.

 

And somehow he always kept the team competitive.  He even managed to win games with a horrendously awful backup XFL QB for almost 2 full years.  
 

So… I cut him slack.  I was higher on Ron before, but I’m wondering if with new ownership and less noise he’ll do a lot better. 

This is where I try to give Ron the benefit of the doubt as well.

Several posters like to point out that he only won with cam Newton, which is true but most coaches only win with franchise quarterbacks and when he had one they were a really good football team all the way around.

Most coaches have never gone through a contentious ownership change, this poor **** has had to go through two in the last 5 years and has kept his teams reasonably competitive despite that.

He hasn't been a head coach for 25 years of mediocrity he has been a head coach for 12 years, half of that with a good to very good football team the other half with ownership turmoil and lousy quarterback play, add in covid during a transition plus cancer as icing on the cake and I can't fathom anybody being able to do much better under the circumstances. 

 

 

[Conn]

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

First, I fixed the many typos - the point was if you are not just cleaning house then your coaches/FO evaluation is by person as much or more than the resulting Ws and Ls.  Specific people may do a great job, maybe even the entire staff, but it may not translate into Ws due to things not in their control.  

 
I just don’t understand in what context this coming season Rivera could be considered to have done a great job and yet it doesn’t show on the W/L record. He’s the HC and has final say on the roster—so it’s his staff, his players, his vision. Not even sure how someone in that position could do a good job and not have it show on the field 

[formerly4skins]

7 hours ago, goskins10 said:

This roster is head and shoulders above what it was when Ron got here. If he was so bad at evaluating players how did we get there?

 

In spots it is, the OLine is a mess for example....and while the DLine and DBs look good, those units have been way over invested in.

 

To me, the biggest indictment of Ron's talent evaluation is that the dude played NFL LB for over a decade and has coached NFL defenses for 30 yrs in some capacity....and our LB situation is was it is during his tenure here. That's either negligence or incompetence, and neither is a good look.

 

But, the real problem is that whatever personel moves Ron has directed, they just haven't helped him win. Gruden was 38-57-1, for a 41% win rate.  Ron is 22-27-1, for a 43% win rate. Now sure, team culture is much improved....but wins, not so much. 

 

8 hours ago, goskins10 said:

That was a brain fart in the spur of the moment. Do you really think he had no idea?

 

100% yes, unfortunately.  I think if you watch the press conference it's clear as day that he had not a clue there were playoff implications to the game he was coaching.

 

 

...just an astonishing lack of situational awareness on his part.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[RVAskins]

I for one think Howell will have a good season and that we finally found our QB. Time will tell but with everything I've seen and read, he can make all the throws and has the talent.

[samy316]

4 hours ago, goskins10 said:

First, I fixed the many typos - the point was if you are not just cleaning house then your coaches/FO evaluation is by person as much or more than the resulting Ws and Ls.  Specific people may do a great job, maybe even the entire staff, but it may not translate into Ws due to things not in their control.  

Rivera has a 22-27-1 record as an HC here after 3 seasons.  VERY few coaches are brought back for a 4th season with a record like that. You can excuse some of this due to who the owner was prior to this coming season, but you can’t excuse the terrible job he’s done at finding a QB, and his terrible moves at O-Line.  Rivera gets no benefit of the doubt this season.  He has to win and make the postseason for him to keep his job.  He only has 3 winning season as a coach in 12 seasons overall.  He now has the squad that he has envisioned.  No more excuses now.
 

It’s time to make that leap this year, or it’s over for him.  Now that we have a competent owner, we can do a LOT better than Rivera as an HC IF this turns out to be another year without a postseason appearance.

Edited July 27, 2023 by samy316

[redskinss]

13 minutes ago, samy316 said:

Rivera has a 22-27-1 record as an HC here after 3 seasons.  VERY few coaches are brought back for a 4th season with a record like that. You can excuse some of this due to who the owner was prior to this coming season, but you can’t excuse the terrible job he’s done at finding a QB, and his terrible moves at O-Line.  Rivera gets no benefit of the doubt this season.  He has to win and make the postseason for him to keep his job.  He only has 3 winning season as a coach in 12 seasons overall.  He now has the squad that he has envisioned.  No more excuses now.
 

It’s time to make that leap this year, or it’s over for him.  Now that we have a competent owner, we can do a LOT better than Rivera as an HC IF this turns out to be another year without a postseason appearance.

I agree with this, year 4 it's time to **** or get off the pot.

If we are terrible on defense to start the year like we have a few times or if we're below .500 and don't make the playoffs that's definitely on Ron at this point.