The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[HigSkin]

But Commanders QB coach Ken Zampese was pleased with Wentz’s appearance. “He looked quick on his feet. He looked like he had fresh legs and processed fast so that was encouraging.”

 

Zampese also liked that when Wentz planted his plant foot, he did not linger back there as a sitting target looking downfield.
“The ball came out. As we were going through earlier in the season, sometimes things got a little stuttered. This time, the ball came out faster, and that was encouraging.”

 

Wentz, in his first year with the Commanders, was learning the offense when against the Bears in Week 6, he suffered a broken ring finger on his passing hand, while also playing with a limited bicep and ankle.

 

Zampese firmly believes that Wentz was learning the offense while injured and thus prepared himself mentally for when his name would be called.

“(He) gets a chance to learn as he watches other guys and goes back in his mind, ‘Hey, we did this in the spring; this is what it looks like live.’ Just gets more mental reps at the same thing over and over again, so you come to a greater comfort level when you get a chance to come back and do it yourself.”

 

“I saw that when it all caved in he was able to get the ball flipped out to the back one time and then the ball came flying out of there a couple of times and we were like ‘yes, it is going where it is supposed to go, and it is going on time.’ Those things get you excited.”

[Ball Security]

54 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

I agree Carr makes us a better team. My only concern is the cost. What do we give up and at wqhat salary? Can;t give up both a bunch of picks and then load up on a $40M/yr salary. But feels like thgat's what it will take as there will be more than one bidder. 

 

I do agree the Raiders have squandered a very good QB. Is he great? No. But he is very good. Colin makes several good points about multiple systems etc. Unless us with Cousins, looks like they are positioned to at least get something for him. Will see what the market dictates. 

I’m not very interested in giving up picks for Carr.  But Carr has an NTC.  He has no incentive to waive it, and with the way this is playing out, he may very well force a release. Then if you get him as a FA, you can structure his contract to work well with the cap.  You can likely make it lower than what Wentz is on the books for the next two seasons, then absorb the increase in the future years as the cap goes up. Look at Wilson’s deal: his cap numbers the first 3 years are: 17, 22, 35.

 

Of the teams interested in him, football wise, we are as a competitive spot as the others in my opinion.

[CommanderInTheRye]

36 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

But Commanders QB coach Ken Zampese was pleased with Wentz’s appearance. “He looked quick on his feet. He looked like he had fresh legs and processed fast so that was encouraging.”

 

Zampese also liked that when Wentz planted his plant foot, he did not linger back there as a sitting target looking downfield.
“The ball came out. As we were going through earlier in the season, sometimes things got a little stuttered. This time, the ball came out faster, and that was encouraging.”

 

Wentz, in his first year with the Commanders, was learning the offense when against the Bears in Week 6, he suffered a broken ring finger on his passing hand, while also playing with a limited bicep and ankle.

 

Zampese firmly believes that Wentz was learning the offense while injured and thus prepared himself mentally for when his name would be called.

“(He) gets a chance to learn as he watches other guys and goes back in his mind, ‘Hey, we did this in the spring; this is what it looks like live.’ Just gets more mental reps at the same thing over and over again, so you come to a greater comfort level when you get a chance to come back and do it yourself.”

 

“I saw that when it all caved in he was able to get the ball flipped out to the back one time and then the ball came flying out of there a couple of times and we were like ‘yes, it is going where it is supposed to go, and it is going on time.’ Those things get you excited.”

 

 

Makes sense that Wentz looks significantly better and more confident after having weeks to quietly study the system without the pressure to perform every week.

 

This is not a user friendly offense. The verbiage compared to other systems is long, intricate, and difficult to master.

 

The reads in many cases are diametric to other systems and non-intuitive.

 

In fact, FitzMagic said  (paraphrased) he felt that even though he had mastered over a half dozen different offensive systems, Turner's was by far the most difficult to grasp out of all of them. He  had to unlearn many of the principles and rules that he had absorbed through the years and start fresh.

 

Excited to see a confident and improved Carson tomorrow.

 

Here's hoping for a fresh start in the new year!

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[Warhead36]

I hate overly complicated systems. The best coaches keep it simple. Another mark against Turner.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

My gut all along has been that Carson is nowhere near as bad as things looked early on. It was a combination of lack of comfort in the system, interior OL giving up immediate pressure which in turn had Carson seeing ghosts, Turner hellbent on airing it out, no threat of a running game without BRob, and a defense playing poorly to boot.  Basically just a combination of things, some on Carson some not, that led to disaster.

 

I still expect some maddening misses on touch passes and getting the ball out early is great only when there is a place to go with the ball.  Meaning when we play teams like the Cowboys and Diggs is hooked into Terry’s belt every snap, and their DBs are all grabbing at the LOS throwing off the timing, Carson can end up a sitting duck in the pocket.  If I’m an opposing DC, I’m emphasizing physicality at the LOS to make Carson hold the ball longer than he’d like.

All that said, nobody can ever convince me that he’s not the better option over Heinicke every single week, no matter the level of OL protection.  

 

[CjSuAvE22]

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I hate overly complicated systems. The best coaches keep it simple. Another mark against Turner.

Remember Al Saunders?!

[Redwards]

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

But Commanders QB coach Ken Zampese was pleased with Wentz’s appearance. “He looked quick on his feet. He looked like he had fresh legs and processed fast so that was encouraging.”

 

Zampese also liked that when Wentz planted his plant foot, he did not linger back there as a sitting target looking downfield.
“The ball came out. As we were going through earlier in the season, sometimes things got a little stuttered. This time, the ball came out faster, and that was encouraging.”

 

Wentz, in his first year with the Commanders, was learning the offense when against the Bears in Week 6, he suffered a broken ring finger on his passing hand, while also playing with a limited bicep and ankle.

 

Zampese firmly believes that Wentz was learning the offense while injured and thus prepared himself mentally for when his name would be called.

“(He) gets a chance to learn as he watches other guys and goes back in his mind, ‘Hey, we did this in the spring; this is what it looks like live.’ Just gets more mental reps at the same thing over and over again, so you come to a greater comfort level when you get a chance to come back and do it yourself.”

 

“I saw that when it all caved in he was able to get the ball flipped out to the back one time and then the ball came flying out of there a couple of times and we were like ‘yes, it is going where it is supposed to go, and it is going on time.’ Those things get you excited.”

As the Eagles press warned: Carson will tease and have a great game here or there...but in the end, he's just not good enough.  He's going to make the mistake.  He's certainly not a SB calibre QB, so we're wasting our time with this guy.  I'm not fully convinced that the SB is really this organization's goal anymore.  But as Kiem has stated, QB is not on our radar this offseason.  They are going to restructure Carson, make Howell the backup and try and resign TH.  This would make me want to vomit if not for the ownership change.  Next year is a waste already but at least Ron isn't going to make another huge mistake chasing some burnout QB again for even more draft picks and $.  Just gotta ride out another lame year for this club.  2024 offseason is really THE offseason to watch.   

[method man]

11 minutes ago, Redwards said:

As the Eagles press warned: Carson will tease and have a great game here or there...but in the end, he's just not good enough.  He's going to make the mistake.  He's certainly not a SB calibre QB, so we're wasting our time with this guy.  I'm not fully convinced that the SB is really this organization's goal anymore.  But as Kiem has stated, QB is not on our radar this offseason.  They are going to restructure Carson, make Howell the backup and try and resign TH.  This would make me want to vomit if not for the ownership change.  Next year is a waste already but at least Ron isn't going to make another huge mistake chasing some burnout QB again for even more draft picks and $.  Just gotta ride out another lame year for this club.  2024 offseason is really THE offseason to watch.   

If they went this route, they have to find a way to get another 2024 first

[Voice_of_Reason]

I really hope we see a much better Wentz and don’t have to get a new QB this off season.  If Wentz plays well, I would prefer to stick with him, preferably on a restructured contract, than try and find a new QB and go through offensive growing pains of a new QB again.  
 

Consistency might be a really good thing. 

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I hate overly complicated systems. The best coaches keep it simple. Another mark against Turner.

Eh I think that’s malarkey.  Reid’s system is as complicated and wordy as any in the NFL.  The Gruden and McVay systems are just as complicated.

 

The key is having experience in the system. And not changing systems all the damn time.  
 

Turner’s system was actually always considered to be very QB friendly.  However, it still takes time to learn.  
 

And then you have to have some type of physical skills in order to pull it off.  

[Ball Security]

Wentz plays well these next two weeks, then wins a playoff game.  Do you think he goes into 23 training camp without guaranteed money, or do you think he makes things difficult?  We’ve talked a lot about him coming back at a lower cost, what if he it’s the opposite?

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Remember Al Saunders?!

That system worked brilliantly with the Greatest Show on Turf Rams (Saunders ran Martz’s system. And it worked really well in KC with Trent Green.

 

The issue is JC couldn’t run it.  But he really couldn’t run any offense.  So shrug.  

[skinsfan66]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My gut all along has been that Carson is nowhere near as bad as things looked early on. It was a combination of lack of comfort in the system, interior OL giving up immediate pressure which in turn had Carson seeing ghosts, Turner hellbent on airing it out, no threat of a running game without BRob, and a defense playing poorly to boot.  Basically just a combination of things, some on Carson some not, that led to disaster.

 

I still expect some maddening misses on touch passes and getting the ball out early is great only when there is a place to go with the ball.  Meaning when we play teams like the Cowboys and Diggs is hooked into Terry’s belt every snap, and their DBs are all grabbing at the LOS throwing off the timing, Carson can end up a sitting duck in the pocket.  If I’m an opposing DC, I’m emphasizing physicality at the LOS to make Carson hold the ball longer than he’d like.

All that said, nobody can ever convince me that he’s not the better option over Heinicke every single week, no matter the level of OL protection.  

 

Needs to get packing if he cannot beat Browns. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Ball Security said:

Wentz plays well these next two weeks, then wins a playoff game.  Do you think he goes into 23 training camp without guaranteed money, or do you think he makes things difficult?  We’ve talked a lot about him coming back at a lower cost, what if he it’s the opposite?

I think he’s going to restructure no matter what.  What the restructure looks Like will depend on the results the next few weeks. 

[skinsfan66]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My gut all along has been that Carson is nowhere near as bad as things looked early on. It was a combination of lack of comfort in the system, interior OL giving up immediate pressure which in turn had Carson seeing ghosts, Turner hellbent on airing it out, no threat of a running game without BRob, and a defense playing poorly to boot.  Basically just a combination of things, some on Carson some not, that led to disaster.

 

I still expect some maddening misses on touch passes and getting the ball out early is great only when there is a place to go with the ball.  Meaning when we play teams like the Cowboys and Diggs is hooked into Terry’s belt every snap, and their DBs are all grabbing at the LOS throwing off the timing, Carson can end up a sitting duck in the pocket.  If I’m an opposing DC, I’m emphasizing physicality at the LOS to make Carson hold the ball longer than he’d like.

All that said, nobody can ever convince me that he’s not the better option over Heinicke every single week, no matter the level of OL protection.  

 

I think the other way he is just a waste of money, picks and was terrible. Has no head for the game, just look at the Philly game 9 sacks at home and his back up beats the same Team on road and snaps unbeaten streak. Just do not see him pulling that off. Now all of sudden he has learned the game plan and from watching his backup? I would give him 3 games as said before. First game you lose your out no matter how well your OL blocks.  

[samy316]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

My gut all along has been that Carson is nowhere near as bad as things looked early on. It was a combination of lack of comfort in the system, interior OL giving up immediate pressure which in turn had Carson seeing ghosts, Turner hellbent on airing it out, no threat of a running game without BRob, and a defense playing poorly to boot.  Basically just a combination of things, some on Carson some not, that led to disaster.

 

I still expect some maddening misses on touch passes and getting the ball out early is great only when there is a place to go with the ball.  Meaning when we play teams like the Cowboys and Diggs is hooked into Terry’s belt every snap, and their DBs are all grabbing at the LOS throwing off the timing, Carson can end up a sitting duck in the pocket.  If I’m an opposing DC, I’m emphasizing physicality at the LOS to make Carson hold the ball longer than he’d like.

All that said, nobody can ever convince me that he’s not the better option over Heinicke every single week, no matter the level of OL protection.  

 

Sorry, I don’t think you’ll see much different than what we saw the first 6 weeks.  Our line is still awful, and Wentz is still an immobile statue behind center.  The only way he can look better than he did earlier in the season is if he can get rid of the ball quickly.  I was a bit encouraged to see some of that late in the 49ers game.  Getting the ball out quickly will help him to avoid sacks.  My hope is that we continue to be run heavy these last two games.  The upcoming Browns game allows us to up our rushing attempts, similar to the Eagles & Falcons games.  If Wentz throws the ball less than 25 times, and we rush for 150+ and own the TOP, we should be able to win.

 

That’s going to have to be the formula going forward.  You can’t ask Wentz or Heinecke to throw the ball more than 30-35 times a game, and expect to win.  Both QB’s will lose you games without a balanced offensive gameplan.  Our only way to win is ball control, running the football and playing strong defense.

Edited December 31, 2022 by samy316

[SoCalSkins]

3 hours ago, Ball Security said:

I’m not very interested in giving up picks for Carr.  But Carr has an NTC.  He has no incentive to waive it, and with the way this is playing out, he may very well force a release. Then if you get him as a FA, you can structure his contract to work well with the cap.  You can likely make it lower than what Wentz is on the books for the next two seasons, then absorb the increase in the future years as the cap goes up. Look at Wilson’s deal: his cap numbers the first 3 years are: 17, 22, 35.

 

Of the teams interested in him, football wise, we are as a competitive spot as the others in my opinion.

Carr will get a massive deal. It will be something like 3 years guaranteed like Cousins. Probably 130 to 140 mil. Watch. 

[Koolblue13]

Just now, SoCalSkins said:

Carr will get a massive deal. It will be something like 3 years guaranteed like Cousins. Probably 130 to 140 mil. Watch. 

Carrs definitely not going to come out behind. The media is talking him up left and rigth. He can name his price. It's being handled much differently than Wentz league wide last year.

[SoCalSkins]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Carrs definitely not going to come out behind. The media is talking him up left and rigth. He can name his price. It's being handled much differently than Wentz league wide last year.

If Wentz gets us into the playoffs he’s the starter game 1 2023. New ownership will likely take over end of March. It’s going to be a lame duck year for everyone. I don’t foresee any massive change in direction. 

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

If Wentz gets us into the playoffs he’s the starter game 1 2023. New ownership will likely take over end of March. It’s going to be a lame duck year for everyone. I don’t foresee any massive change in direction. 

I'm fine with Wentz being our starter. I like him. Need a better contract, but still. 

 

I'm just pointing out that Carr isn't the one leaving the Raiders who looks bad. Everyone knows he's really good. 

[CommanderInTheRye]

Just like you can't see the oak tree, if all that you examine is the acorn that lies in front of you.

 

So it is true that a man is not merely the sum of all the things he has done up until now. Occasionally potential is realized and metamorphosis is achieved.

 

Put another way, being and becoming are not the same thing.

 

At our best  we are all engaged in the process of becoming.

 

I raise a hearty toast to Carson's eminent becoming!

 

 

 

 

 

"We are spirits in the material world".

Sting

[Captain Wiggles]

🤭

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Captain Wiggles

[Ball Security]

47 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Carr will get a massive deal. It will be something like 3 years guaranteed like Cousins. Probably 130 to 140 mil. Watch. 

That’s my point.  He could get a contract similar to Wilson ($124M guaranteed) and give us a better cap situation than 22 Wentz.

[SoCalSkins]

6 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

That’s my point.  He could get a contract similar to Wilson ($124M guaranteed) and give us a better cap situation than 22 Wentz.

124 guaranteed versus 28 guaranteed are not the same. We have options to cut him. Wilson also cost the 3rd overall pick as of now. 

[Conn]

 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

Bad sign: Was catching up on my dvr'd sports talk shows and every one of them has a segment on "the great" Derek Carr.

 

They're making this guy seem like a prospective team's Messiah and speculating on who will either trade for him or outbid everyone else for his services, if he's released.

 

The more league interest there is in Carr-- just like last year with Wilson and the year before with Staffird-- the less likely it is that we will end up with him.

 

Until our ownership situation is clarified we are not a team of choice.

 

We are a team of desperation that takes players with either limited options or limited competition for their services, like Carson Wentz last off season.

 

Perhaps our best and most realistic path to sustained success is for Carson to become the player we hoped he would be when we traded for him.

Edited December 31, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye